phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Link
Matchup:
60:40
General info:
What to avoid:
How to win:
Helpful tips:
Ok.... lotta stuff to comment on. Prepare for a gigantic post, lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Dtilt: This move gives an upward knockback similar to utilt, so it's a combo starter. Be warned that it can spike you.
Forget about this move. Seriously, Links never use this move. On stage, off stage, ever. Pretend it doesn't exist, but I'm not exaggerating when I say we don't even consider it part of our moveset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Dair: This is probably his overall best kill move. It's basically a sex kick that points down. It lasts a ridiculously long time, has an insane amount of priority, and knockback during initial frames is beastly. This move can hit an opponent twice before it automatically stops. It has a huge amount of landing lag. It can be used for bouncing off projectiles, like a pogo stick.
Everything here is right, except be careful about the bolded part. It has huge knockback always, basically. The only time it won't have amazing knockback is if you shield it, and we bounce off the shield, and then you lower your shield and get hit by it again. The hit after the bounce has hardly any knockback.
Other than that though, it has beastly knockback from........ anywhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Dsmash: You probably won't see this used too often but be aware that this move can apparently spike.
I dunno where you heard this, lol. Dsmash is one of Link's best moves, easily. It KOs, it doesn't spike lol, it's one of his fastest moves in general, and it hits on both sides of him. Great move, really, be sure to watch out for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Usmash: It's a multihitting move that can be used via DACUS. Unfortunately, it's multihitting nature makes it so that it's easy to SDI out, so you will rarely get hit by the last part.
While it is true that you can DI out of it, don't be so quick to say that it's easy to DI out of. I've only encountered one person ever who could DI out of it, and that was a fellow Link main. But yes, it can be DI'd out of, the point still stands.
Links mainly use this move for punishing and damage racking, not KOing. It can hit on both sides of him, which make it a good option OoS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Gale Boomerang: This has a hitbox coming out but a windbox coming back. Can be used for damage, mindgames, combo strings, or just to annoy.
-Bomb: It's a bomb. It can be used for damage, disruption, mindgames, pressure, etc.
-Arrow: It's an arrow. Damage, camping, pressure, annoying, etc. It can be used for locking
This stuff is pretty correct, I'd say. Just keep in mind that bombs are by far his best projectile, and you will see a lot of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Spin Attack: His main recovery move. It has decent vertical recovery but poor horizontal motion. A grounded one can be used as a kill move, but it's no where near as good as it was in Melee unless it is fully charged.
Yep, the only times you'll usually be seeing spin attack used for KOs is out of a jab cancel or OoS.
Which reminds me - jab cancels lead into a lot of things. Spin attack, utilt, dsmash, grab, and fsmash are the most common ones. BUT Link can still jab cancel fair, pivot bair, or nair. So watch out for those as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Zair: This is the third best of the possible four zair users in the game. It can hit twice, but it doesn't produce much knockback. This is also one of his primary recovery options.
I don't think it has any knockback
Btw, I'm curious, who are the 4 users. Link, TL, Samus..... who am I missing? O.o
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Approach smart, because Link has several projectiles and his upclose game is pretty decent.
Nah, you're close up game beats ours. Link's close range game was never amazing, he'll stick to pressuring with projectiles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Links may camp because of their projectiles. They don't want to take damage because damage means more knockback, which can lead to their death.
Consider it like..... a guaranteed fact that we will camp. Lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Force Palm chaingrab does work on Link, but only at low percents. Keep this in mind.
Yeah.... this is true. =/
Apparently from what I read, we can break out though? Someone tell me how lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Link is heavy and a fastfaller, so he can get combo'd relatively easy at low percents. HOWEVER...
-Be careful about his dair. You CANNOT challenge it with uair. Same applies to his uair with Lucario's dair.
Meh, dairs not really a move Links will use to stop a juggle, generally. They might sometimes at higher percents, to maybe get a KO on you off the top, but that's it really. Most of the time, they'll FF airdodge or FF nair or FF bair. Nair and bair have good priority, are quick, and auto-cancel.
Most people usually say "well, we'll just punish the FF airdodge, not hard." True..... but Link has the fastest FF in the game. Good luck catching up to him when he zooms right by you down to the ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Since Link's recovery is generally one of the worst in the game, you can expect to occasionally gimp an unprepared Link. If he is recovering from far away, consider Aura Sphere, or just chase him off the stage with fairs.
You guys definitely, definitely wanna capitalize on gimping in this matchup. Like.... a lot. Dair offstage probably wrecks Link if you can land it, due to that knockback (it's multihit, but I haven't tested how to DI out). Fair WoPs work well, maybe nair too *shrug*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-You can ride Gale Boomerang as it is returning to Link. You can attack while riding it, so keep this in mind.
Lol. I'm not laughing at you sir, it's just that in every matchup I go to, someone brings this up. "You can ride the boomerang and attack, but he can attack too." I honestly dunno why people bring this up. You'll see this actually happen maybe like.... once out of 20 matches or something. It's so uncommon, it's not even worth mentioning. Yeah, don't worry about gale riding or anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Assuming the Link does not manage to kill you early, you can certainly outlast the Link. Since all Lucario's moves gain increased knockback as he takes damage, you'll probably be killing Link pretty quick.
Well, I'll address 2 things here. Here would be a good place to list Link's KO moves: fsmash, dsmash, utilt, spin attack, ftilt, dair, second hit of fair, and sometimes uair. Usmash is not a KO move.
So, watch out for those, and you'll live for a while.
Now to address killing Link. It's already been said you can gimp Link. Don't assume you can gimp him easily.
Note: this is not bragging. This is not exaggeration. Link mains have broken DI. A good Link generally lives to about 170% at least for most matchups. Now, that's definitely gonna lower if Lucario is at like 200% or something, but for the most part, don't be frustrated if he's at 140% and he's still not close to dying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-While this match might seem easy, do not underestimate a Link. Most of his kill options give vertical knockback, and Lucario's vertical resistance is mediocre.
Meh. Out of the moves I listed, only 4 of the 8 go upwards. The other 4 kill horizontally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-When recovering against a Link, remember that he has projectiles to interrupt your recovery attempts.
A good Link WILL shoot arrows, chuck rangs, and throw bombs at you while recovering. And his aerial spin attack has high priority, thankfully. Throw in the fact that Link mains DI like crazy, and you've got yourself a fight for a gimp. This is why I said, gimping Link on paper seems easy, but it's not as easy as you might initially think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-He has a tether, so be prepared for some tether mindgames when a Link is hanging on the edge while you are recovering.
Link is one of the best edgehoggers in the game. Reason being, if we're on the edge, we can refresh our invincibility frames by dropping away and tethering back very quickly. Just something to keep an eye out for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Be careful when the Link has a Gale Boomerang out, because it can drag you back into the Link's range, possibly into a kill move. Also, be warned that it can mess up any recovery attempts.
Meh....throwing a boomerang from the stage to the Lucario offstage is something most Links are advised not to do. That goes for any matchup. The chance of catching you in the windbox into our KO move is just so little, we'd rather go for run-off nairs and fairs. We'll also be edgeguarding with dairs a lot, especially if you're at a KO percent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-Neutral: Link does good with projectile spam, much like Toon Link, so avoid open stages like Final Destination. BF is a pretty good starter, but Links tend to hate Yoshi's Island.
Yeah, this is pretty true. Personally, I like YI. It depends on the Link user. If he's aggro, he'll like YI. If he's a camper, he won't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockettrainer
-Counterpick: Avoid Norfair, because most Links love this stage. It has platforms plus multiple edges for Link to tether. Some Links might try to take you to Brinstar because of it's low ceiling. Consider a stage that is lacking edges that could hinder his recovery options, like Frigate or even Rainbow Cruise. If you feel truly uncomfortable, then try Japes. Rushing water can be a Link's nightmare.
Link's awesome stages: Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Halberd.
Link's sucky stages: Frigate, usually Japes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Ryu
Other than projetiles, Link can also stand still with his shield up to block the aura sphere. This won't happen often as Lucario shouldn't spam fully charged aura spheres anyways.
This is basically never gonna happen. Any time a Link can be standing with a Hylian shield up to block an Aura Sphere, he can be doing something else. And just about every other option he could be doing, is a better one. The only time he'll block it with the Hylian shield is for the lulz, really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Ryu
Link's main forms of Killing are Dair, Usmash, Utilt, Ftilt, Fsmash, Dsmash. Thats a lot of kill moves, and all of these kill very well, the main ones to watch out for are Dair, Usmash, Utilt, and Dsmash due to Lucario having trouble with getting killed vertically. Don't use Lucario's Usmash on Link's Dair or Lucario's Dair on Usmash, Link's moves have more range. This can be applied to other moves such as Link's Fair and Zair.
I listed his KO moves above, but I'll bring this up again. Usmash is not a KO move. It's a damage racker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Ryu
Sounds like Link is awesome, well not quite. While Link has a a nice amount of moves he still has problems. Lucario can combo and string moves together at low percentages, this sucks for Link. Link is quite heavy, and as a result is susceptible to being juggled at low %. Link is also quite slow when it comes to start up and cool down of moves. Most of his attacks aren't safe on block against a majority of the cast. You can shield and punish a good bulk of his moves, Link relies on using his projectiles in conjunction with his moves to get his kills.
Yeah seriously, take advantage of when Link is at a low percent. Basically everything Ryu said here is pretty true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Ryu
The main problem Link faces is his terribad recovery, he has the worst recovery in the game. While Link has the potential to live as long as Snake can due to his good momentum canceling, DI, and heaviness, this is all useless if he gets gimped. Lucario can Dair, chuck an aura sphere, Fair, bair, etc. While it's isn't as easy as it sounds, Lucario has quite a few options to gimp Link.
I talked about this earlier as well, don't feel like retyping it again. xD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Ryu
For stages, If I were Link I'd want to go to Norfair, Battlefield, or Final destination. Norfair is Link's best stage, it helps his camp game, makes it easier for him to get kills, and occasionally helps his bad recovery with lava, if I were to ban a stage against a Link I'd ban this one over the others. Battlefield and Final destination are recommended due to how it helps Link with his camping a bit more.
Btw, if Norfair is banned in your region, ban Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise. Ryu, BF doesn't help Link's camp game so much as it does help his aggro game, tbh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Ryu
Due to Link's bad recovery and Lucario's abilty to juggle him I'd rate this, 60:40 Lucario.
I'd agree with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Ryu
He can also hold a bomb while doing a Fsmash or Usmash.
You can't use usmash with a bomb in hand, unless you throw it up, and catch it with a DAC. Just for clarification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draver
Link's spotdodge a lot so using ftilt helps with it. I noticed that most of the time Izaw combo'd me it started from spotdodging my moves.
That depends on the user, really. Link has a good spot dodge, but some players never use any of his dodges, they just space and PS. *shrug*
Long post guys, but I hope this was helpful.
Stages:
Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.
