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Lucario vs. Pokemon Trainer (25) Export

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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Apr 15, 2008
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in my SCIENCE! lab
Pokemon Trainer


Matchup:

55:45 Overall
55:45 Squirtle
65:35 Ivysaur
55:45 Charizard
If Poke trainer has Master Ball: 0:100 PT's favor

General info:
I will add on Charizard when I'm done...

Before I being, please read this guide about Pokemon Change's mechanics and how it affects PT's stale moves, stamina, etc. It's an interesting read and you will probably learn something you never knew. ;)

Pokemon Trainer:

OVERALL: Most PTs know how to play at least one Pokemon very well, some learn two. It's very rare you'll find someone who is good with all three, so expect Squirtle to be one of their best. Squirtle is also probably the one that gives Lucario the most trouble. Charizard can give some trouble, but it can go either way. Ivysaur will probably give the least amount of trouble, but do not underestimate her. As a whole, I would say the matchup is somewhere near the NEUTRAL to borderline ADVANTAGE area depending on which Pokemon your opponent uses the most.
Charizard alone probably goes evenish with Lucario.

Squirtle alone gives the most trouble because he's good. He has superior aerial movement, he's fast, good bair and fair for offstage game/approaches/edgeguard, dair is pretty good, Water Gun for edgeguard, fast jab, utilt games, a guaranteed kill throw at higher percents, shellshifting for movement/mindgames, good overall priority...I mean, I could go on forever. The only major flaws he has are that he's light, his range is suspect against certain characters, he lacks raw killing power, and his recovery options can also be suspect. Otherwise, he's a pretty good character. If he were by himself, I would honestly see him around high/borderline top. Reflex's PT beat Lee Martin's Lucario a while back. This is saying something about Squirtle's potential.

I even considered maining PT at one point during the beginning of Brawl. But Ivysaur...yeah.

Anyways, whatever matchup is next, I'll have a patented fence of text ready. :)
That's a solid summary of Squirtle.
Ivysaur? To me, he's just fodder.

And for Charizard:
- Rock Smash: Super Armor, easy damage, kill potential. Expect a lot of this.
- Usmash: Strong, great range, don't challenge with dair: you'll regret it.
- Grabs: 'Zard's neck is really long. Pivotgrab is even worse. Dthrow can kill at higher percents.
- Fair: Outranges our fair, gimp potential.

Although we can pull some pretty nifty combos off on him, he can finish us pretty fast once he gets in. All of his smashes can kill us at around 100% and they all come out pretty quick. If he approaches with fair or rock smash, just space him with fsmash. The tip of his fair will graze you for damage, but it doesn't actually stun you. Just be careful though, a poorly timed fsmash can get punished by the super armor on his Rock Smash. Also, be careful about the range of his Dsmash because it's range is wider than expected.

I guess that's all I have to really say about him.
Squirtle goes aganist Lucario fairly well. Watch out for his grab Squirtles at low percents can release into jabs (which comes out at frame one, ****) and at high percents Dthrow can kill so beware. Don't play dumb otherwise Squirtle will combo you with his aerials, punish bad spacing on aerials and **** him up. But most of all it's all about anticipation.

Ivysaur is the easiest out of the trio. She has like no priority in the air so that's definitely a place to take her too. Just don't get too spamhappy otherwise you'll get a Uair that hurts. Razor Leaf is no problem, most of our attacks clack with it and I'm pretty sure AS does too. Bullet seed can be a nuisance but as long as you don't get hit in the center, DI'ing shouldn't be too hard.

Charizard is fun to go against. On the ground he has tons of **** to throw out, grabs, crazy attack range, and tilts. Due to his weight chaingrab is effective, use it at the start of the match. Charizard has the least amout of jumps of any multi-jump character so pressure with aerials or AS when he's offstage. Now offstage Charizard can gimp pretty good as well if timed right. Fair shorta semi spikes and Dair if you're caught under the stage can pose a threat. Defensivly Charizard has a great UpB OoS and can kill.








What to avoid:
I will add on Charizard when I'm done...

Before I being, please read this guide about Pokemon Change's mechanics and how it affects PT's stale moves, stamina, etc. It's an interesting read and you will probably learn something you never knew. ;)

Pokemon Trainer:

SQUIRTLE (aka Wario's little cousin)
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Jab: A pretty decent move considering they come out fast and can be linked from a grab release.

-Utilt: This moves comes out super fast, can combo into itself, and can lock people when Squirtle is tired. Really good for small but quick amounts of damage.

-Fsmash: It has a small amount of startup lag, but the move does have some Super Armor frames.

-Usmash: This will probably be the most used smash. It creates two walls of water on both sides of Squirtle, protecting him from physical contact. It has some kill potential and can be combined with hydroplanting, shellshifting, whatever you want to call it. It has some startup lag.

-Fair and Bair: These two moves are basically the same move, except fair does more damage. They are basically sex kicks, so treat them as such. They both have potential killing power.

-Dair: Kind of like Mario's dair but much better overall. The last hit is the one with the most knockback.

-Dthrow: This is a kill move at higher percents depending on the stage. A good Squirtle will save this move until they are ready for a KO.

-Water Gun: A decent edgeguard move that can be charged. It pushes people away but deals no damage. However, uncharged does do damage, but most Squirtles will never use an uncharged one.

-Withdraw: This move has very limited uses. It gives Squirtle invincibility but hitting him sends him the opposite direction. Also, jumping on him flips him over and puts him in a helpless state. It can be used for recovery, but it's a pretty terrible option in most cases. You probably won't see this move very often, if at all.

-Waterfall: Squirtle primary recovery move. It protects Squirtle from the front and bottom. His back and top part are exposed to attacks.

-Pokemon Change: Switches Pokemon...using this causes him to switch out with Ivysaur. Basically a free punish if he does it while Lucario is on stage. However, there is a way for the PT to cancel most of the transformation lag time using moving platforms.

-MISC: He is light, floaty, and small. He can walljump, wallcling, and crawl.
IVYSAUR (aka the lesser of the three...)
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Dash attack: A surprisingly decent kill move at higher percents. Ivysaur is a hitbox while she is sliding along the ground, and it lasts a decent amount of time.

-Ftilt A decent multihitting poke move that is relatively safe even when shielded. Ivysaur leans forward while doing this move, so it's hard to shieldgrab when properly spaced. It also comes out relatively fast.

-Utilt: A decent anit-air move that hits directly above her. It can be used to dodge certain ground moves, since her hurtbox is lifted off the ground, but anyone who does this to avoid attacks regularly is werid...

-Fsmash: A decent kill move that is somewhat quick and somewhat hard to punish if spaced. You'll probably see it used more when you get into kill percents.

-Usmash: Undoubtedly her most useful kill move. It has a some startup and ending lag, but it can kill at somewhat low percents if you are hit. It's also disjointed and can beat out Lucario's dair.

-Fair: One of her possible aerial kill moves. It covers a large area in front of her.

-Uair: Think of an aerial usmash with less knockback and somewhat less range. Can propel Ivysaur downwards.

-Dair: Basically a upsidedown uair but with less knockback and can stall aerial movement. It can spike.

-Bair: Probably her best spacing tool, since very few non-projectile moves can challenge it, it has very little ending lag, and be spammed to discourage approaches. It does very little damage, but the primary purpose of this move is to annoy and space.

-Bullet Seed: A decent move if you get trapped in it, but you can SDI out. The initial frames can knock you into the seeds.

-Razer Leaf: This projectile has good priority over other projectiles, but is slow and can be canceled by regular attacks. Again, used mostly to annoy or force an approach. Can be angled.

-Vine Whip: This is pretty much her only method of recovery. It's a tether recovery and she can only use it once. As an attack, it's pretty beastly if you get hit by the tip, but it probably won't happen too often. It also has amazing priority (I don't think anything can clank with it, but my memory is fuzzy).

-Pokemon Change: Switches Pokemon...using this causes her to switch out with Charizard. Basically a free punish if she does it while Lucario is on stage. However, there is a way for the PT to cancel most of the transformation lag time using moving platforms.

-MISC: Can crawl.
CHARIZARD (aka Bowser 2.0)
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Utilt: A decent move for poking through platforms

-Dtilt: A really good poke move. It comes out fast, has very good range, and has very little ending lag.

-Fsmash: It has a lot of startup and ending lag, but it has a lot of knockback. One of his primary killmoves.

-Fair: A decent edgeguard and KO move that has weird properties. Charizard must hit you close with it in order to produce knockback. Otherwise, you will take damage but knockback.

-Uair: A decent juggle move, but it only has one hitbox and is not a sexkick despite its appearance of being one.

-Bair: Another decent KO move that must be sweetspotted in order to produce maximum effect. If you are set on fire, you were with the sweetspot.

-Dair: A spike move that has a small amount of startup time.

-Flamethrower: Basically the same as Bowser's fire breath, but with slightly more range, I think. Aura Sphere can cut through it.

-Rock Smash: This move has some different properties to it. You can either a) get hit and take a large amount of knockback or b) get hit and take a lot of damage, but not a lot of knockback. It has a good amount of shieldstun and can eat shields if used repeatedly.

-Fly: Charizard's recovery move. It has decent KO power at high percents, and also has Super Armor during the rising motion. It's very difficult to interrupt the move once it has been started.

Glide: Charizard can glide, but it is undoubtedly the worst one in the game because of its startup time. He can also Glide Attack, but once again, it's probably the worst one.

Dthrow: A possible KO move at higher percents, but it's weaker than Squirtle's IMO.

MISC: Big and heavy. Dash is faster than his walk. Has multiple jumps.


How to win:
I will add on Charizard when I'm done...

Before I being, please read this guide about Pokemon Change's mechanics and how it affects PT's stale moves, stamina, etc. It's an interesting read and you will probably learn something you never knew. ;)

Pokemon Trainer:

SQUIRTLE (aka Wario's little cousin)

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-You certainly have more range than him with Fsmash, but Squirtle has more speed to get around this. Be sure you space yourself accordingly.
-Squirtle is light, so he'll die relatively early if you can survive long enough.
-Learn to edgeguard a Squirtle effectively. Waterfall does not give a whole lot of horizontal distance, but gives a decent amount of vertical.

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Squirtle has no projectiles (charged AS goes through Water Gun) or reflectors, so feel free to use Aura Sphere. However, Squirtle is fast, so be careful about how much you spam AS.
-Squirtle lacks raw killing power, so you should live to pretty high percents as long as you don't get KO'd by Dthrow. Once you have Aura, you know what to do...
IVYSAUR (aka the lesser of the three...)

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-Be aware of her kill moves, especially usmash. Ideally, don't stay above her too much, because she has some decent anti-air moves. Her aerials are okay, but they have some startup time.
-If the Ivysaur starts playing keep away, throw some fully charged Aura Sphere.
-Taking damage is something an Ivysaur cannot afford. More damage equals more knockback, and this could result in death for an Ivysaur.

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Learn to edgeguard Ivysaur. Walls of fair or Aura Sphere could mean death. Don't be surprised if you gimp an Ivysaur rather than outright KO her with a kill move, because it happens very often.
-While she does have kill moves, they do have some startup time. Keep yourself spaced away from these moves.
CHARIZARD (aka Bowser 2.0)

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-Charizard has no projectiles or reflector, so feel free to use AS. He is a big target for AS.
-In terms of range, Charizard can challenge you with some of Lucario's moves. However, his moves are slower overall, so take full advantage of Lucario's lingering hitboxes.
-Force Palm chaingrab...you can use it but beware of attempts to escape it.

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Lucario probably wins in the aerial game, but Charizard can keep up with Lucario on the ground. Just watch out for those RAR bairs!
-Since Charizard is big and heavy, you can combo him somewhat easily.

Squirtle-
HUUUUGE HITBOXES. I find Lucario really annoying to play against with Squirtle because of how large his hitboxes are and how long they last, so use them to your advantage. With good spacing you can really force Squirtle to dance around your moves, which isn't easy. Killing is a serious issue for Squirtle as well... I now tend to bring out Squirtle when Lucario's already at higher percents, and I'm thinking most PTs with experience in this matchup will do the same. If they don't, and start Squirtle or something, you can play more defensively until fatigue kicks in. Fatigued Squirtle can't kill Lucario until like 180%.


Ivysaur-
Ivy's KO moves are hard to land. If you're constantly aware of them then Ivy will have a lot of trouble killing Lucario as well. I think after a bit of experience against Ivysaur you really shouldn't be having any problems. Just be smart about approaching - Ivy can punish poor approaches very well. Aura sphere beats out Razor Leaf in general, and don't let b-air frustrate you. It'll outrange all of Lucario's aerials, but you should realize it only does 4% max.


Charizard (ain't bowser lol)-
Yay KO moves. d-tilt, u-smash, Rock Smash can all KO reliably, and sweetspot Rock Smashes can get you to KO percents pretty quickly. U-smash in particular is surprisingly fast, so watch out for that. The shards of Rock Smash have deceptive range and duration, but you guys should know what that's like ;) I think I like Charizard the best in this matchup, since he's got the kill power to prevent aura from getting too strong. Use his size against him - get the combos and chain throws in at low percents, and send out Aura Spheres if you've got space... it's annoying getting around them. Watch out for f-air gimps as well. One sweetspot f-air by the edge puts you in a pretty bad position, and if you don't have your double jump you're pretty much dead.


Each PT has a different playstyle, but for this matchup you can often expect to see Ivysaur's time minimized. Personally, I try to keep Charizard in the most, and when Squirtle gets out there he looks for the kill. If you play more defensively you can expect to see a lot of switching. Fatigue hurts us more in this matchup than in others, so we'll be trying to keep our pokemon fresh as long as possible.
If you really want to make squirtle a lulzy battle, try to outspace him and stall him until he's fatigued, his kill power takes like 60% later to kill lol.
Frankly, I think we have good aerial control, we have enough tools to get him into the air, he has to approach obviously, and the only time we shouldn't use aerials is if he's on the ground and isn't committing to something obv. As long as you don't make very punishable aerials and use BAS in conjunction with fair, nair, uair, etc., I actually think squirtle shouldn't be as big a problem as most say he is, this isn't going to be a game where you'll want to "combo/string" or go aggro in any way, if you want to win this, you'll have to zone and play defensive. Squirtle still has a better chance of gimping us, although we can do the same to a good extent too. You have to remember the general rules of fighting faster aerials with our longer ranged ones, other wise this is going to be a nearly uphill match in terms of spacing and damage racking.
Obviously, squirtle's solid kill moves are usmash and dthrow, but fair/bair offstage will do the same if you don't watch out. gay away from the grab, and watch out for hydroplaned usmash, and you'll stay pretty dry for the match lol.
If you have problems with ivysaur, either you're playing Brawl + and aren't aware of it (lagless uairs and all that) or you have some serious issues. We actually outcamp razor leaf (BAS fires faster and has more use for pressure), we only really have issues with bair which isn't much of a problem (if he's bairing, there's a few options, like AS or if they aren't retreating it for some odd reason, rolling), uair is kinda telegraphed, usmash should not be an issue unless you get lulzly revenge KO'd after squirtle, and he gets gimped really badly from fair strings and AS.
Charizard is actually going to be a bit more different, rock smash iirc is safe on block unless PS'd, fair is a good gimp tool, so if you see it coming, remember to back away just a little bit offstage and dair stall then retaliate if you want to, 'zard's grab is annoying as it has good reach and comes out pretty fast (plus has some decent followup power). Luckily he's going to be more of a "bat away" character for us, which is a bad character design against lucario if you have to approach. AS will very likely make him either exposed in ways if you've truly mastered it's utility (which is expected at high levels of play), or he'll take to the air, which is the worst option of the two. Charizard is juggle bait, although I'd watch out for bair since it comes out fast and has a low flying trajectory. If you don't get gimped and watch out for early kills, this matchup gets exponentially easier.
I'd say an overall advantage is in order, but I won't exactly know the numbers, although I'd say 60:40/65:35 is a good number against Ivysaur, and maybe 55:45/60:40 for Charizard. I don't know where to put my finger on squirtle as he's made some big jumps, but I'd say 50:50/55:45 leaning towards 50:50. On the other hand, if Poke trainer wasn't too busy screaming at his pokemanz all day and he'd reach into his ball pocket and pull out a Master ball...

Edit: and like I said, I like the idea of going to frigate, like A LOT. Similarly, I like JJ. Has anyone tested whether changing pokemon during the stage flipping = autokill? That would be lulzy.

Helpful tips:
I will add on Charizard when I'm done...

Before I being, please read this guide about Pokemon Change's mechanics and how it affects PT's stale moves, stamina, etc. It's an interesting read and you will probably learn something you never knew. ;)

Pokemon Trainer:

SQUIRTLE (aka Wario's little cousin)


Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-His light and floaty nature prevent some combos from working on him. Keep this in mind.
-Squirtle's aerials are more superior than Lucario's and come out much faster. Lucario's fair can challenge his fair/bair, but his come out faster and have more priority.
-Squirtle can edgeguard a Lucario with Water Gun if you are using Extreme Speed. Therefore, be careful when you recover mid/high.
-When recovering low, be prepared for a bair/fair to the face. Also, watch out for runoff->bairs. This could lead to a stage spike.

IVYSAUR (aka the lesser of the three...)

Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-Not particularly, just know that her bair is her main spacing tool.
-Be aware of her tether recovery. Retethering to the edge can lead into mindgames.
-Her tether has a DECEPTIVE amount of range. Be careful when trying to do a speed edgehog.

CHARIZARD (aka Bowser 2.0)

Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-Charizard is a "power" character, so his move will certainly do more damage than Lucario's early in the match. Be careful about getting KO'd early before taking advantage of Aura buffs.
-Don't be surprised if Charizard lives a long time if you don't have Aura.

Stages:
I will add on Charizard when I'm done...

Before I being, please read this guide about Pokemon Change's mechanics and how it affects PT's stale moves, stamina, etc. It's an interesting read and you will probably learn something you never knew. ;)

Pokemon Trainer:

SQUIRTLE (aka Wario's little cousin)


Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-I'm at a loss here...I don't know what are good stages for a Squirtle. I guess big open stages that allow aerial movement are good for a Squirtle. Also, Squirtle relies primarily on vertical kills, so low ceilings are probably bad.
IVYSAUR (aka the lesser of the three...)

Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-Her main weakness is her recovery ability, so if a stage doesn't have tether-able edges, then it will put her at an automatic disadvantage. Avoid stages with no pits.
Don't forget his shell shifting ability, makes him pretty fast, can cancel into jabs, grabs, he can hydroplane. Waterfall can be used to rack up damage as well and has enough knockback for squirtle to return to the stage safely.

CP - Stages that hinder him and the other pokemon as well. I'd take PT to any of the moving stages, except cruise. Since I hate cruise, SV, PS1? Lylat
As for stages, I would CP Lucario to small stages to help getting the kill... Halberd and Brinstar, for example. So, big stages would be good CPs. Luigi's Mansion if it's legal (although I always ban it against Lucario if it is legal), or PS1 is a good choice as well. I don't know how well you guys do on Jungle Japes, but it seems like a good idea as well. You could try to CP to take advantage of our below average recoveries as well. Rainbow Cruise and Frigate Orpheon are generally considered two of our worst stages for this reason.
I totally agree that Frigate, JJ, and maybe Castle Siege by what I see/hear = good for lucario, as well as FD/YI possibly for a starter.


Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.
 

Rayku

Smash Lord
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All I know is that

Squirtle's U-air beats D-air completely, and Squirtle ***** Lucario
Ivysaur is a pushover and is bad
Charizard is just a flying Bowser, and Rock Smash does an unnecessary amount of damage

and that Reflex can **** me on a good day for him.
 

RT

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Squirtle doesn't **** Lucario so much as has an advantage. It's like fighting Wario, but lighter, smaller, slightly worse recovery and no farts. :)
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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Also, Squirtle gets pretty much grab released -> something by pretty much the entire cast. I think I remember reading Lucario even has some grab release thingy vs. Squirtle, but can't remember what it was specifically.
 

Browny

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rawr these generalisations of squirtle to wario are infuriating

Its like fighting Wario!
Except who doesnt live till 160% every stock and will almost never get gimped
Who doesnt scare you into dodging/shielding everything for fear of getting KO'd at 70% from a waft
Who doesnt destroy shields with nigh unpunishable pokes and the bite
Who doesnt have an incredibly powerful, fast fsmash
Who doesnt have a spotdodge with almost no vulnerability frames at all

Honestly the only thing they have in common is similar aerial acelleration and a shield poking dair. Warios amazing attributes are nothing like squirtles...
 
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