Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #13: Lucario

TLMSheikant · Sep 18, 2009

Another rediscussion:

GO!

phi1ny3 · Sep 18, 2009

Wow, you and the peach boards must love us lol (and I guess vice versa)
This has been like the 3rd time our boards discussed the MU, and I'm assuming the same for you guys?
:3
I think it's 50:50, maybe 45:55 TL's advantage (maaaaaaybe).
More info later.

Lobos · Sep 18, 2009

This our 2nd time actually, havent done this match up since 08........anyways I hate rolling lucario and fully charged orb > arrows and boomerang :/

phi1ny3 · Sep 18, 2009

Good thing bombs beat it, right?

WindMajor · Sep 18, 2009

Tested at 0%

Uncharged Arrows cancel Uncharged Aura
Uncharged Arrows < Charged Aura

Charged Arrows flies over an Uncharged Aura
Charged Arrows cancel Charged Aura

Boomerang cancels Uncharged Aura
Boomerang cancels Charged Aura

Bomb > Uncharged Aura
Bomb cancels Charged Aura

Zair cancels Uncharged Aura
Zair < Charged Aura

Tested at 100%

Uncharged Arrows cancel Uncharged Aura
Uncharged Arrows < Charged Aura

Charged Arrows flies over an Uncharged Aura
Charged Arrows < Charged Aura

Boomerang cancels Uncharged Aura
Boomerang < Charged Aura

Bomb cancels Uncharged Aura
Bomb cancels Charged Aura

Zair cancels Uncharged Aura
Zair < Charged Aura

Tested at 150%

Uncharged Arrows cancel Uncharged Aura
Uncharged Arrows < Charged Aura

Charged Arrows flies over an Uncharged Aura
Charged Arrows < Charged Aura

Boomerang cancels Uncharged Aura
Boomerang < Charged Aura

Bomb cancels Uncharged Aura
Bomb cancels Charged Aura

Zair cancels Uncharged Aura
Zair < Charged Aura

Tested at 175%, 200%

Uncharged Arrows cancel Uncharged Aura
Uncharged Arrows < Charged Aura

Charged Arrows cancels an Uncharged Aura
Charged Arrows < Charged Aura

Boomerang cancels Uncharged Aura
Boomerang < Charged Aura

Bomb cancels Uncharged Aura
Bomb cancels Charged Aura

Zair cancels Uncharged Aura
Zair < Charged Aura

At all percents

Hero's shield cancels Aura.
C-4 cancels Aura.

Sosuke · Sep 18, 2009

Nice.

Someone with that frame-by-frame hack thing should test out how long it takes for Hero's shield to come out after stuff. =/
Then maybe we won't have to worry about shielding stuff after using moves as much as just waiting for the move to be over.

phi1ny3 · Sep 18, 2009

Probably not going to change the differences much but you should also test lucario @ 170, essentially rough maxed aura buff (and if you really want to, stock buffs as well).

WindMajor · Sep 18, 2009

Well we have to kill Lucarios before 100%, or else they start getting annoying. Their knockback, power, and priority increase as their % increases, so try to get early kills by gimping them.

Choose stages that can be hard for their UpB, like Lylat Cruise. Lylat is also good because it minimizes his Aura usage. They can't cling to no walls, and the moving ledge is Jesus. BAN FRIGATE ORPHEON! They can cling to walls (like the invisible ledge on the right) and recover. The space is small, so it's hard to camp Lucario.

It's usually best to jump and throw bombs and rangs at a campy Lucario. Although I'm sure Lucarios are smarter than that. When going against a more aggressive Lucario, use Zair. Zair and bombs are great in this matchup. Oh, and watch out for Lucario's Dair.

I give this matchup a small TL advantage. I don't wanna put up a ratio until I hear a little bit more from Lucario mains.

Edit: @phi1ny3 Already done. And I did it on 200% just to be sure, and it yielded the same results.

Sosuke · Sep 18, 2009

Lucario is really annoying on Frigate. >_<

TLMSheikant · Sep 18, 2009

Lucario is dumb. I once threw a bomb at a charged aura sphere and it did nothing twink. U might want to experiment a bit more to see what causes that to happen. I absolutely hate Lucario's fsmash.

Sosuke · Sep 18, 2009

Was the bomb about to explode? Like, flashing yellow and stuff?

TLMSheikant · Sep 18, 2009

Not sure sasuke but I dont think it was :/.

Sosuke · Sep 18, 2009

Oh. I was just asking because I've had that happen to me before. I think that yellow blinking bombs can only take half the abuse normal bombs can. >_<

phi1ny3 · Sep 18, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
Lucario is dumb. I once threw a bomb at a charged aura sphere and it did nothing twink. U might want to experiment a bit more to see what causes that to happen. I absolutely hate Lucario's fsmash.

But I love lucario fsmash ;_;
IASA frames, strutter-step, transcendent priority, frame trap, what's not to like (except speed more or less).

WindMajor · Sep 18, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
Lucario is dumb. I once threw a bomb at a charged aura sphere and it did nothing twink. U might want to experiment a bit more to see what causes that to happen. I absolutely hate Lucario's fsmash.

Okay well I'm gonna test it again, and not in practice mode, since you say it's inconsistent.

These are flashing yellow bombs against fully charged Auras:

At 0%
-Bomb cancels Aura

At 50%
-Bomb cancels Aura

At 100%
-Bomb cancels Aura

At 150%
-Bomb cancels Aura

At 170%
-Bomb cancels Aura

At 200%
-Bomb cancels Aura

At 200%, when Lucario stores his Aura Sphere
-Bomb cancels Aura

At 200%, when Lucario stores his Aura Sphere for like a minute.
-Bomb cancels Aura

At 200%, when Toon Link throws bomb while dashing
-Bomb cancels Aura

At 200%, when Aura is thrown in the air
-Bomb cancels Aura

Anything else I might have missed?

TLMSheikant · Sep 18, 2009

:/ Controller port? IDK. Also, @ phiny thats why i hate it XD its IASA is just way too good.

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Sep 18, 2009

I like facing Lucario's

55 - 45 Toon Link. Just take him to Lylat, and it automatically becomes 65 - 35 Toon Link. :D

phi1ny3 · Sep 18, 2009

Lylat actually isn't too bad a stage for lucario, we usually go there against spacies or people with a much better camping game. There are platforms that dair and utilt can abuse a bit, ES isn't that bad (actually, it's not a very good idea, but it's possible to traverse lylat underneath with lucario's jump and ES), as it allows you to curve to the ledge, and that kind of long vertical blastzone helps against good vertical killers (like TL uair and usmash, in this instance). It's kinda bad when we want to conversely outcamp with AS in some MUs, but it isn't a very bad stage, (unless your taking into account some stupid mechanic like dsmash slope kills or something like that).
A pretty bad stage to screw lucario over is probably RC, smashville (I don't like the stage at least XP), Brinstar, Corneria (which is usually banned), Green Greens (also banned), and some others I'm forgetting but can't remember. What exactly are TL's best stages? (I'm sure his best Neutral vs. Lucario is SV, but I'm not sure).

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Sep 18, 2009

I never post seriously. So yeah that post was just....nothing. No way Lucario is that easy. Although we DO have a slight advantage. Perhaps 55 - 45 Toon Link. Just because WW > Pokemon Diamond. :D

phi1ny3 · Sep 18, 2009

lol I'm not mad or anything. I've had much worst (bias levels can get > 9000 sometimes, ya know).
I actually agree that WW is pretty amazing, I don't like TP as much either (I miss the magic bar and firing fire + ice + light arrows ;_; ).
Although I think Pokemon HG/SS might have the potential to be > WW. Because I was a hardcore G/S fan (still love it today).

WindMajor · Sep 18, 2009

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage said:
I never post seriously. So yeah that post was just....nothing. No way Lucario is that easy. Although we DO have a slight advantage. Perhaps 55 - 45 Toon Link. Just because WW > Pokemon Diamond. :D

I like your reasoning, but you should start to post seriously.

Also, Toon Link's best stages are usually stages that give him space to camp, like Final Destination, or stages that require you to have good aerial maneuverability, like Rainbow Cruise. Corneria seems like a good stage to CP, assuming it isn't banned. Rainbow Cruise is our normal counterpick for like half the cast.

The hardest part with this match up is going for the kill. Camping Lucario shouldn't be too difficult, but when it comes to approaching, especially when Lucario has 100%+, it's best to just poke attacks. CQC is BAD for Toon Link in this match up.

phi1ny3 · Sep 18, 2009

Yeah, I can see Corneria being a serious problem for Lucario lol, that stage is gayed up in Brawl BAB. RC is going to be probably the best CP for TL against lucario then, he has a bit more difficulty getting you TL, plus the relatively small stage boundaries help in getting kills earlier.
I think YI, Frigate, and Japes will be decent stages Lucario will CP against you, and BF will probably be lucario's better stage as a neutral (or YI/PS1 if that's allowed in your area, which it isn't in mine).

TLMSheikant · Sep 18, 2009

Yeah, I dont see Lucario killing TL with fsmash much in RC XD. That alone is reason enough to be our CP

. Also, is Lucario bad at Delfino? Just asking thats my usual CP and I havent been able to cP a lucario there...yet.

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Sep 18, 2009

*serious post*

Whenever I fight my friends Lucario I would just camp him to hell and when going for the kill I start to go to CQC and I don't do THAT bad. I would take a couple hits but I'll still kill them before they kill me. Our Usmash > Their Dair and that's good to know. Well at least I think cause I once hit through his Dair with my Usmash. Just camp them and when going for the kill just do what you do best. Jump around and look pretty. :D

On a more serious note when going for the kill just do what you do in every other MU when going for the kill. You just gotta be extra careful cause Lucario can be annoying as hell over 100%. Try gimping him for early kills. And as for counterpicks I would definitely go to Lylat. Best stage to fight a Lucario as Toon Link. Other than that I would also go to Smashville, or Final Destination or Rainbow Cruise. Maybe even Delfino and Battlefield. 55 - 45 Toon Link

TL;DR Take him to Lylat. Insta Win.

TLMSheikant · Sep 18, 2009

Lylat isnt insta win...play better Lucarios >_>.

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Sep 18, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
Lylat isnt insta win...play better Lucarios >_>.

I know dude. I just had to. lol No matchup is insta win for Toon Link (except vs Ganondorf on Rainbow Cruise XD)

TLMSheikant · Sep 18, 2009

Ganondorf is insta win for anyone :/. TL does have an instawin, its called zelda and yoshi. lol.

WindMajor · Sep 18, 2009

I'd just CP Rainbow Cruise. FD isn't a good stage to CP, since it has no platforms. Lucario can use a fully charged Aura and cover the entire floor. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, he can cling under the ledge. Can he?

Good Neutral: Smashville
CP: Rainbow Cruise
Ban: Frigate, Jungle Japes

copacetic · Sep 18, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
Ganondorf is insta win for anyone :/. TL does have an instawin, its called zelda and yoshi. lol.

Uhhh... play Green Ace (or other decent yoshis). I can beat him on some stages, but he definitely has an edge over me. No way it's an easy match

NearZzz · Sep 18, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
Ganondorf is insta win for anyone :/. TL does have an instawin, its called zelda and yoshi. lol.

Play better Zeldas and Yoshis

Also, Lucarios don't seem to bad on Delfino as one might think. Not sure why, But the ones i've played don't have too much of an issue there.

I usually take them to Battlefield or RC.

Bans i would use have already been said.

TLMSheikant · Sep 18, 2009

Yoshi is easy once u realize something...like REAL easy. Zelda is easy too. I do play a great yoshi and at first I had hell of a lot of trouble but then...I actually started playing the matchup CORRECTLY. He also uses G@W and we go very even in that matchup. :/ Anyways, I was just asking if delfino would be good, like I said I havent been able to CP a lucario there yet and was asking if it was a good idea to CP him there next time I encounter one

.

Sosuke · Sep 18, 2009

Sheikant, you just take everyone to Delfino. It's your CP stage. xD

TLMSheikant · Sep 18, 2009

Yeah XD, except DDD *gulp*.

MJG · Sep 19, 2009

I would say that brinstar is a pretty decent counter since most toonlinks will favor the air and lucario will die sooner on this stage.

The only thing i would watch out for on this stage is the extra frames from parts of the stage as lucario is using his smash attacks. A prime example of this is his F Smash. I've seen lucario's charging their f smash and without me thinking, i ran into the ending frames of the f smash

I would say it was 50:50. Just because this match up can be annoying if the toonlink's method of killing is predictable. I believe it is very stage dependent as well IMO

Fun Fact: Lucario can roll across a Final Destination faster than toonlink can run.

Aurasmash14 · Sep 19, 2009

Just ban Yoshi's island and frigate. Then you have nothing to worry about when it comes to stages.

lol at lylat ****.

phi1ny3 · Sep 19, 2009

Aurasmash, you only get one stage ban <.<;
Delphino's kind of meh for lucario, he's okay there (he's a lot less gimpable because of the traverseable platform-like floating stage part), water is kind of a blessing in disguise, seeing as he doesn't have a spike but his dair is a lot more safer compared to everyone else's since he can jump away before getting back into the water. The AS camping is terrible there, but we don't need to in this MU, having walk-off sides can also be an iffy thing. I think it's slightly better for TL here, but lucario isn't entirely ***** there either.
I think RC will be a better stage pick, but like I said, this MU is more build dependent than stage dependent as far as which decisions will be more effective.

WindMajor · Sep 19, 2009

I think the match up is even. Toon Link can easily outcamp Lucario, but he can't gimp him, and it's insanely hard to get the kill without getting clobbered my Lucario's increasing strength. Toon has Lucario during the first 100% percent, but afterwards, it's Lucario's turn.

50:50 for me.

phi1ny3 · Sep 19, 2009

I used to think TL vs. Lucario was like 60:40 TL's favor. That was when I didn't know anything about the MU, and lost to Chip and Moochero (before he switched to D3).
Now, I can say it's 50:50. It's a pretty decent match, Lucario has some really safe/solid punishes that get better when he's higher in percent, but TL is going to be really, really annoying with projectile walls.

ckm · Sep 20, 2009

yes, lucario can cling on FD. However, if he uses his upb to cling, his only option afterwards will be to wallrun up to the stage. TL should be able to just Dair him as he runs up over the lip and its all over for him.

just camp the **** out of him and avoid AS until he is in killing percentage (or close to it.. once he is at high percents he will try to camp you, since his AS will beat your rang and arrows), then move in for the kill.

Lucario is slow and predictable, and AS is easily avoided. TL has great arial maneuverability, making it very difficult for Lucario to chase after him & actually inflict damage.

One thing TL should watch out for is the dair gimp. Dair, if placed correctly, will **** TL's upb, often resulting in a nasty stage spike. Also, don't tether unless you have to because dair ***** that too.

one stage that should be considered for counterpick that has not been mentioned is Halberd. Lucario has poor vertical launch resistance, and rarely kills upward. Take him to halberd where you kill early and he dies early and you have a pretty good advantage. I suppose the stage size is a bit less than you might want for the matchup, but I think the blast zone factor is most important for Lucario because it prevents him from utilizing the one thing that makes him good--aura boost.

WindMajor · Sep 20, 2009

Good point. Is that why Corneria is such a good counterpick? Because the ceiling is low, and Lucarios can't kill vertically? That's interesting....

Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #13: Lucario

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