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Some tips, tricks and ideas.

Crescens

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
54
Just a collection of Samus tips and ideas to discuss. There are quite a few, so I thought a new thread might be in order. Hopefully some of them will help out the the Sami around here. A few points might be pretty straightforward or obvious, but I included them anyway if I felt they represented a weak point in the videos I've watched around here. Anyways:

It's important to learn how to buffer a reversed dtilt from an auto canceled aerial. Taking advantage of the great range of the dair, bair or uair, and using them for crossups occasionally is one of the best ways for Samus to take the aggresive role when she needs to, or has the opportunity. Uairs and dairs on grounded opponents are nice and all, but they can be punished, or shielded without too much effort. If you can get a dtilt on your opponent 6 frames after you land (even if you're facing the wrong direction), you dish out some serious shield pressure if they shield, poke if they have already tilted their shield upwards for your uair, get a 25+ damage true combo at lower percentages if you hit, and generally out range, out prioritize and out speed any attempted counter attack. If you time your aerials correctly, you can make the amount of time between the aerial and dtilt very negligible. Of course, Fsmash, ftilt and jab (lol) can also be used after an aerial, but they're slower with lower shield stun, range, and are generally much easier to punish than a well spaced dtilt.

Bair becomes a much more powerful move if you learn this, but first you need to learn how to time the bair so it cancels only a frame or two after the hitbox comes out. It's surprisingly easy. Just SH, FF at the earliest available point, and bair almost immediately after you start FFing. If you do it right, Samus' leg just flickers on screen for about a frame or two before she lands - but the hitbox is still active for that frame or two. If you learn to space this with the very tip of Samus' toe (spacing it is much harder than performing it), it makes a decent "wolf style" spacer. Even better, though, it hits as low to the ground as possible, allowing it to poke shields, and more importantly, to hit annoying small characters even if they're ducking.

Dair on grounded opponent -> usmash is great at certain percentages for MASSIVE DAMAGE.

Stall more. If you're going to play to win, don't be afraid to do some planking. Not ultra-gay MK planking, but just enough to be a nuisance. Retethers and the ability to regrab quite early in the UpB animation gives Samus fairly constant invisibility frames. Be patient on the edge so as to harbor impatience in your opponent. Even great players will make hasty decisions, or otherwise give you an opportunity to deal some extra damage or returrn to the stage quickly.

I don't care if the down angled Fsmash has less damage and knockback. Against many characters, it can be a better option simply by merit of the angle. Off this side, Samus has zair, dair, missiles, bombs, retethers and easy regrabs to ensure your opponent doesn't recover. The early kills you get often make up for the -2 damage.

Remember that Samus has BY FAR the worst roll in the game. Don't use it. Pivoting is usually better.

Stop relying on dair so much off the edge. Try some nairs. You're going to connect way more often, sometimes getting gimps, sometimes just dealing damage.

Use your grab more often. You'll get punished lots until you get a good sense of when to use it and when to avoid it, but once you do, it's quite a useful move due to it's range. It super-effective against opponents returning from the air.

Every last one of you underestimates the power of dtilt as an edgegaurding tool. Against the vast majority of the cast, a well timed dtilt has more than enough range to hit a recovering opponent well before they're within range to snap onto the ledge for 14 free damage.. Try it – walk up to the edge until you're doing Samus' epically awesome (better than her taunts at taunting) 'teetering' animation, and use your dtilt. It's quite safe, too.

Stop SHing and doing zairs over and over again while remaining stationary. Even the best Sami around here are doing this all the time - and getting grabbed. As soon as you're start your SH, the opponent is 100% sure you're just going to try to zair him.... again. Of course he's going to punish you. At the very least, DI backwards, or off the edge.

Samus is all about baiting - it's the essence of Samus, and an element of her game that I feel is vastly underdeveloped. The next few points are some brief tips on how to bait, predict and punish aerials.

Samus absolutely must be able to predict when an opponent will jump; she has some of the best tools for this, and should thus make use of them. Fair is the perfect tool for punishing a predicted jump. It deals such incredible damage that it's worth putting in the effort to bait an opponent into it with missiles, zair and bombs (lol, some people, ie nubs, try to jump over them). Sliding usmash is great in the same situation - if you predict a jump well, you can easily slide in and deal the full 20+ damage.

Learn to true pivot into an uangled ftilt, or an utilt. Again, you must learn to predict the aggressive aerial approaches that will warrant this response. This is one of the only good ways Samus can keep those annoying squirtles and tinks and warios on their toes. Even if you don't connect often, it makes aerial approaches much more risky for them.

Ftilt is deceptively good. The range is actually pretty ridiculous, it's hard to punish if you hit with the tip, and it's Samus' best option for keeping opponents from getting close. Learn to true pivot with this, too. It will stop the vast majority of ground approaches before they get close enough to hit you. If you use the ftilt regularly, it's very easy to quickly condition your opponent to shield during their approach, which really gives Samus the ability to make use of the one area in which her grab excels - the range. Just like the ftilt, Samus' grab will regularly catch opponents well before they're close enough to attack. Obviously, your opponent won't fall for this very often - but that's precisely where baiting comes into play. This is how you force the opponent into the air and predict his aerials. Don't forget to make a fairly liberal use of smash missiles. too!

Bombs, though controversial, are decent baiters. It doesn't matter that you should never actually hit your opponent with a bomb - figuring out their preferred method of avoiding it is what truly matters. A shocking amount of good players go right ahead and try to jump over it... into a face full of fair.

Anyway, it's late. I'm tired. Lots of typos I bet. Let me know if anything I wrote is unclear. I'm sure I've forgot a few things. I'll add them later if I remember.
 

DelxDoom

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
1,555
Skimmed

This is good in depth theory craft of how Brawl should be played. At first it's hard to read just of the intimidating size, but it's good.

I think the usefulness of ftilt is the most important - it's a lot easier to apply than buffered dtilts and stuff.

about buffered dtilts- are they really that useful? Seeing as many characters could probably grab you right after the dtilt unless you somehow spaced so well + shield push.

Another thing of emphasis is definitely the SH misusage.

Rolls are bad in general, but in Brawl they are harder to punish than in Melee. In theory they're terrible, but in practice, you can get away with lots of mental things with rolls if you're smart.
 

RaigothDagon

Smash Journeyman
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Mar 15, 2008
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I think the only time a good Samus will ever roll is by accident. Maybe not used to reverse grabbing or buffering, or just under pressure so timing gets thrown off.
 

RaigothDagon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
227
Location
Grove, Oklahoma
Samus definitely has a terrible roll. Rolling in general is very predictable, but some characters have safe enough rolls that make it hard to punish even though they can be predicted.

Lol @ Sago. In your case, its more of a taunt than a mindgame or evasive maneuver.
 

DelxDoom

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
1,555
Brawl in general is so slow that most characters won't be able to punish the dash forward -> roll backwards lol

I'm liking the bair spacing thing. However, the guy I played against today always spotdodged it at the last moment and punished me somehow.
 

NO-IDea

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Very good theory-craft. I will look over it again later, just to check some other things, but there was one statement really stood out that I must disagree with.

B-air can't be effectively used as an aggressive approach. The difference between Wolf's b-air and Samus's lies in the fact that Samus's blatantly telegraphs itself. It takes more frames to come out, and her floaty short hop doesn't help either. It is vital to learn how to space it, I agree, but the role you seem to associate b-air with is distorted. It's more of a follow-up or a punisher after a successful bait rather than an approach option.

If you really want to approach, Samus has only 2 reliable aerial approaches (aside from missile cancel approaches.) They are: z-air and d-air. U-air is a great mix-up when you can predict and land it, and f-air is situational (entirely based on whether or not your opponent's aerial priority is good or not.) But overall, she's only got two people.

Other than that, good stuff. The d-tilt usage I whole-heartedly agree with, along with OoS throws and f-tilts as good punishers. You neglected to mention OoS n-air as a good punisher though. People tend to forget that.

N-air is a good gimp option, but so is simple edge-hogging with her tether and up+b.

Finally, her angled f-smashes are situational, just like her angled f-tilts. Most of the time, unangled f-smash is best simply because of its range, but for punishing (meaning you're close enough and know you can land the smash,) up angle is better for damage and knockback, and on edges and against shorter characters, down angle is good for gimping and killing.

I think I pretty much said everything I needed to say, actually. lol

EDIT: OH YEAH. Follow-ups to auto-cancelled aerials. Is jab really slower than d-tilt? It does have less shield stun and range, but if it's faster, it might be better. With that being said, if you whiff an aerial, your best bet is to buffer a spot dodge. We're not Peach: our aerials do not provide enough shield stun for our jab/d-tilt. Therefore, you miss? Did it get blocked? GTFO.

That is all.
 

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
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Theory craft looks good on paper but almost NEVER plays out in real matches.
 

Crescens

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
54
Yeah, you're right about the bair. I certainly didn't mean to imply it was even close to is good as wolf's; my mistake for doing so. It's only really a good approach in a very limited circumstance. If your spacing is absolutely perfect and you buffer a reversed dtilt (pretty hard to do), it's not too easy to punish for most characters and they'll sometimes fail to shield the dtilt. But yes, it is pretty choreographed. DIing in time with your opponent helps a bit, but only takes you so far. It's better as a defensive tool to deter your opponent from rushing in than an aggressive approach.

That said, it's best function is really surprise factor. It sort of just pops out of nowhere and cancels laglessly. I do quite a bit of SHing with Samus (except against certain characters of course), so it's not really uncommon to land a bair by faking a retreat with a SH and quickly DI/FF a bair back towards my opponent who is usually following.

Anyway, yeah, it's limited, but at least it's an option every once in a while.

Usually, I use it

EDIT: OH YEAH. Follow-ups to auto-canceled aerials. Is jab really slower than d-tilt? It does have less shield stun and range, but if it's faster, it might be better. With that being said, if you whiff an aerial, your best bet is to buffer a spot dodge. We're not Peach: our aerials do not provide enough shield stun for our jab/d-tilt. Therefore, you miss? Did it get blocked? GTFO.
If your aerial hits, dtilt should be guaranteed I believe, so it's obviously better.

If you do a spaced dair, you can be way too far for jab to hit - dtilt is always a better option here, too.

The real question is if you a not-so-spaced dair. A nonspaced dair is actually good in it's own regard. Due to the way Samus swings her arm cannon, you get cancel it earlier and have less space between the dair and the folloup. You'll always be close enoguh for a jab to hit, which is great. But more importantly, is it worth it? In many situations, you'll get the jab in, but be jabbed back, or your followup to jab will be powershielded. I find it just too unreliable to use as a followup, but this may be largely a matter of preference.

If you really want to approach, Samus has only 2 reliable aerial approaches (aside from missile cancel approaches.) They are: z-air and d-air. U-air is a great mix-up when you can predict and land it, and f-air is situational (entirely based on whether or not your opponent's aerial priority is good or not.) But overall, she's only got two people.
Ftilt! It's limited, yup. But underused.

You neglected to mention OoS n-air as a good punisher though. People tend to forget that.
I'm one of those people. I always forget about it. ^_^

i consider myself an atleast decent samus and i actually roll sometimes. i dash at them sheild and roll backwards its hilarious.
That's what bombs are for, too. :p


Theory craft looks good on paper but almost NEVER plays out in real matches.
Everything I included are things that are part of my game; I wouldn't have written it if I have not empirically verified it's (possible) efficacy under practical conditions. If I wanted to theory craft, the OP would be about 25x as long. I actually made this post in the first place because I saw a few videos(real games, indeed) here where a guaranteed buffered reversed dtilt was not performed or performed in the wrong direction.

The last part(s) about baiting is a bit more theoretical in nature insofar as it's application must be done in an abstract, intuitive sense whereas the others points are just habits or techniques to learn. This is how I do much of my baiting, and I deal significant portions of my damage with it, so I thought it could be useful to include.
 

DelxDoom

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
1,555
reverse buffered dtilt/dsmash is probably useful thing to get down



dair really really really shouldn't be a useful approach move but it works lol
it has pretty easily recognizable startup, a pretty large amount of startup time, etc

though, shdair to hit shields or something and drift away without fastfalling isn't terrible.



to edgeguard with dair, time it so that you hit where they will be when they're there.
hahahahaha
 

DelxDoom

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Got an idea for bair; sh forward, go behind them and ff bair.

Obvious but we should do it consciously more :D



anyway yo, my icon's not from bleach
it's got a hat
and GREEN HAIR
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
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Theory craft looks good on paper but almost NEVER plays out in real matches.
That's why you should try them out in friendlies. Who knows? If there were ten examples you wanted to try out, and only two worked, hey, at least you have two down.

I tried something in the past with ZSS and Diddy Kong to see if what I was trying out in Training Mode would actually work in a real match. When I did friendlies with some person's Diddy Kong, it didn't turn out as I had planned. So yeah, give them each a shot. I also like your "Don't just d-air, use other aerials like n-air." IsmaR has KO'ed me a few times using n-air instead when I tried to tether recover.
 

LanceStern

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I'm sure it took a lot of "theory crafting" and practice from Armada (Melee Peach), Mango (Melee Jiggs), and ADHD (Diddy) to get to what they are. Not to mention M2k.

I agree we can't just write off the suggestions.
 

IsmaR

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Meh. My bad for being stupid. And actually, I mistook you two because of your wall-of-text posts. lolz

I also like your "Don't just d-air, use other aerials like n-air." IsmaR has KO'ed me a few times using n-air instead when I tried to tether recover.
<3 N-air gimping. One of my favorite uses for it, especially when people don't expect it.

I've been using N-air erratically/differently(in situations you wouldn't normally use it, as an offensive approach, to break out of stuff, and so on) for a while now. I've learned it is a much better move than it is given credit for. TAC's told me that I'm the best combo breaker he's ever faced, and that he learned that N-air in general/the way I use it is too good.
 

Space-knight

Smash Cadet
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Good tips. I'll try to use them but Xyro77 has a little bit of a point, sometimes it can be hard to actually use them in battle after reading them. But at the same time this is where PRACTICE comes in.
 

LanceStern

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I just reread this theory craft and am impressed once again. I definitely want to work on my:

Pivots out of autocancelled aerieals
Dtilt as edge guarding
True pivot tilts
Nair gimps.

and I especially want to get that bair trick low to the ground.

I've noticed a few things while playing:
1. Knowing the KO %s are awesome. You can air release Wario into a DTILT as well. That's great!
2. Wall jump -> utilt is a surprising edge guarding tool as well.
3. You were right about lwoer percentage charge shots (or was that NO-IDea?) Samus can hit MK with a low % charge shot and follow immediately with SH zair.

It's great.
 

Cherry64

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Lawl, well I play a mean Bair game. when they are hanging on the ledge I wil spam B air, it cuts a lot of the opponents options down. For some reason it hits people out of their recovery attack I think, or I just waited for the attack to finish and punish accordingly. the ONLY thing that screws this is powershielding. which is hard to do agasitn this because you can use b air at any time during the short hop. wait till the shield is out if you want then pop a Bair on them, it'll knock them off and back onto the ledge, so start from scratch again.


it's 3:30 I'm waaay tired, this'll make no sence until some of you play me.

Izzy will know what i mean
 
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