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Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread
- Thread starter shanus
- Start date
King Funk
Int. Croc. Alligator
Well... Balance has really improved these last weeks, thanks to you guys. But I really hope we'll have a final version of Brawl+. ^^
timothyung
Smash Ace
But when you think a character is not balanced, you will suggest changes
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
There is a difference though. Instead of being like DK sucks, lets change this that and the other thing, it can be more like this:But when you think a character is not balanced, you will suggest changes
Given the results of this tournament, I found DK to be lacking in these areas against these characters for this reason. Its meant to provide proof and not centralize on what changes to be made, but to discuss the current balance now. Kind of imagine it that you cannot alter the game and are determining match-ups.
timothyung
Smash Ace
My point is that, saying something like "I think Ganon has trouble against pressure, *proofs blah blah blah*" is actually the same as saying "Give Ganon some tools to deal with pressure". As long as we have proofs, I don't see the reason why we shouldn't be allowed to give suggestions.
But I agree that we shouldn't focus on discussing what changes to be made. Just don't randomly suggest something without any proof.
But I agree that we shouldn't focus on discussing what changes to be made. Just don't randomly suggest something without any proof.
jalued
Smash Lord
so the falcon v bowser matchup is stupid... whats up with that?? 
oh except yesterday my mate did a 110% 0-death kill with bowser on falcon haha. was epic!!!
but yeah, stupid matchup lol
oh except yesterday my mate did a 110% 0-death kill with bowser on falcon haha. was epic!!!but yeah, stupid matchup lol
Slashy
Smash Lord
Well, I still wanted that crawling buff. 
Would it be possible to make a code that allows custom stages on the SD card to be loaded on random select?
Would it be possible to make a code that allows custom stages on the SD card to be loaded on random select?
Dan_X
Smash Lord
As far as balance goes, things have come a long way.
Falco's new SHL definately helps him out versus shorter characters--- he can actually hit them now. How much has SHL helped Falco against tiny/short characters I can't yet determine, as I don't regularly fight Pika, Kirby, Olimar, Squirtle, etc...
Do any of you use short characters against a competant Falco? Conversely, do any of you other Falco mains often fight short characters? How have these matchups changed?
---
Bowser, I feel that boswer has gained quite a bit in this build. His flame cancel is excellent, though I find it too easy for the enemy to DI into the fire (towards bowser) to escape it. It can be a good edgeguarding move, but oftentimes the enemy can use it to help them, DIing through it effortlessly. They then get the first hit in, as the end lag on the fire is too much to cicumvent th attack. What do you guys think about this?
Ness/Lucas: I'm really pleased with Ness and Lucas in this build. They feel so differntiated now. Lucas is fairly quick, decnt recovery, and I love his psi magnet/new z-air. Ness feels great. His recovery is really weak, which is good, because he has a powerful on stage combo game. It's well within reason to gimp him. There's some controversey surrounding his Fair, but isn't it escapable? I thought DIing down and away got you out almost instantly.. His DJC is also excellent, I really like it. What are your thoughts on Ness/Lucas?
Falco's new SHL definately helps him out versus shorter characters--- he can actually hit them now. How much has SHL helped Falco against tiny/short characters I can't yet determine, as I don't regularly fight Pika, Kirby, Olimar, Squirtle, etc...
Do any of you use short characters against a competant Falco? Conversely, do any of you other Falco mains often fight short characters? How have these matchups changed?
---
Bowser, I feel that boswer has gained quite a bit in this build. His flame cancel is excellent, though I find it too easy for the enemy to DI into the fire (towards bowser) to escape it. It can be a good edgeguarding move, but oftentimes the enemy can use it to help them, DIing through it effortlessly. They then get the first hit in, as the end lag on the fire is too much to cicumvent th attack. What do you guys think about this?
Ness/Lucas: I'm really pleased with Ness and Lucas in this build. They feel so differntiated now. Lucas is fairly quick, decnt recovery, and I love his psi magnet/new z-air. Ness feels great. His recovery is really weak, which is good, because he has a powerful on stage combo game. It's well within reason to gimp him. There's some controversey surrounding his Fair, but isn't it escapable? I thought DIing down and away got you out almost instantly.. His DJC is also excellent, I really like it. What are your thoughts on Ness/Lucas?
dawgbowl
Smash Ace
The Lucas buffs are all good and well, but they still don't help him against key matchups that he still continues to struggle with (GaW/Marth) The Zair has great combo potential, but a good techroll can put you in worse position. The Psi mag upgrade is cool but still situational... you still have to put it out before you can set the hitbox into motion.
If you want to continue in this direction of "a different Lucas" can you try maybe speeding up PK freeze 120% (all of it, maybe even more on the end... like Gdorf Usmash -> jab kind of stupid) This way a shorthop PK freeze towards the opponent can disorient and end with Ftilt/jab or something.
I don't know, that or speed back up PK fire some... against marth, he really NEEDS that to be fast... against GaW... well maybe the Dair hitbox infront of/or whichever direction lucas is traveling could be slightly bigger... I traded with GaW on that move alot at a tourney over the weekend and I that box was moved slightly to one side/or made a tiny bit bigger I think he'd have a legit option going overtop of GaWs wallair.
If you want to continue in this direction of "a different Lucas" can you try maybe speeding up PK freeze 120% (all of it, maybe even more on the end... like Gdorf Usmash -> jab kind of stupid) This way a shorthop PK freeze towards the opponent can disorient and end with Ftilt/jab or something.
I don't know, that or speed back up PK fire some... against marth, he really NEEDS that to be fast... against GaW... well maybe the Dair hitbox infront of/or whichever direction lucas is traveling could be slightly bigger... I traded with GaW on that move alot at a tourney over the weekend and I that box was moved slightly to one side/or made a tiny bit bigger I think he'd have a legit option going overtop of GaWs wallair.
DarkDragoon
Smash Champion
Eh. I don't have anyone good to play and I've been doing lots of sandbagging...so I couldn't give any ups or downs for any matchups...but I'd like to say that Marth off the stage doesn't recover so well with SideB anymore...
Then again, I'm not Marth player, so it might have been just me not noticing.
-DD
Then again, I'm not Marth player, so it might have been just me not noticing.
-DD
n88
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2008
- Messages
- 1,536
I'm a little disaappointed with Zelda in this one. I can't play quite the way I usually do. She feels kinda clunky (Can't find good word to describe this). I went from dominating my little brother to taking seven minutes to win a three stock match.
I'm assuming I didn't just randomly start sucking worse than usual, as I've been playing fairly regularly.
On the upside, transform is now much more usable.
I'm assuming I didn't just randomly start sucking worse than usual, as I've been playing fairly regularly.
On the upside, transform is now much more usable.
Every character seems to be in super **** mode+
Honestly I think things are finally looking up. I especially pleased with the "underused" characters. I think finally they are getting everything done right to them like people finally understand them........
I think the overused characters may even be slightly weaker but because they have far more developed metagames and strategies, they are still the favorites. In that sense, what has been achieved in terms of balance is REALLY GOOD.
I'd like to propose a gameplan........
On that note. I (personally) kind of want to reshift coding focus to stages while we gather DATA about characters. I Would DEFIANTLY love to see a future codeset maybe in the next 2-3 months that doesn't change character stuff AT ALL. But instead makes a few more stages viable. (Obviously I'm trying to leave characters intact for data collection).
Basically, I'd love to see coders (I guess thats some of the WBR members) focus on stages in a say 2-3 months (take a break and enjoy the game, you deserve it) while the REST of the community focus on gathering matchup DATA for the WBR. However if that is too much and people would rather focus on data collection only, I'm fine with that as well.
Honestly I think things are finally looking up. I especially pleased with the "underused" characters. I think finally they are getting everything done right to them like people finally understand them........
I think the overused characters may even be slightly weaker but because they have far more developed metagames and strategies, they are still the favorites. In that sense, what has been achieved in terms of balance is REALLY GOOD.
I'd like to propose a gameplan........
On that note. I (personally) kind of want to reshift coding focus to stages while we gather DATA about characters. I Would DEFIANTLY love to see a future codeset maybe in the next 2-3 months that doesn't change character stuff AT ALL. But instead makes a few more stages viable. (Obviously I'm trying to leave characters intact for data collection).
Basically, I'd love to see coders (I guess thats some of the WBR members) focus on stages in a say 2-3 months (take a break and enjoy the game, you deserve it) while the REST of the community focus on gathering matchup DATA for the WBR. However if that is too much and people would rather focus on data collection only, I'm fine with that as well.
DarkDragoon
Smash Champion
This. I've been taking 5+ minutes to kill scrubs, even when I put my rapeface on. RC1 seems to have slowed stuff down... =[
*reaches for Melee*
Actually, Yoshi is awesome. I played him last night and it took me only like, 3 minutes to 4 stock the same scrub it takes 6 minutes to dominate as Lucario.
>___>;
-DD
Marths sideB was ruined from the transition from melee to vBrawl, which is why he was giving his new shield breaker to compensate for it
MK26
Smash Master
QFT. It's getting too difficult to dominate scrubs.
But then again, that probably just means that we've achieved a higher level of balance than before...
Also, since this thread is also about stages, can we start hammering out a neutral/cp/ban list?
EDIT: also, Marth's side-b seems much more effective for recovery than in several builds prior. Maybe it's just the slowdown being removed, but I found myself in a position that I didn't expect to recover from, but was pleasantly surprised when a dj --> side-b --> up-b managed to get me back to the ledge. Marth can recover again!
DarkDragoon
Smash Champion
Well the higher balance is a given...but seriously...my BEST characters still take WAY too long...and all I'm doing is "combocombocombo" and they're just like "Lol 184% and I live anyways weeee!". A lot of my kills are from them not recovering properly or lack of DI. If balance means the difference between scrub and not-scrub is just character + knowledge, then its a little too balanced.
-DD
Shadic
Alakadoof?
I'm not having the "Forever KO" issue at all, actually. Maybe that because I main Link, and he got quite a few buffs in this set, but I don't have too much trouble racking damage up, and leading into a kill move at all.
Plus, he can sort of gimp now! Whoohoo arrows!
Plus, he can sort of gimp now! Whoohoo arrows!
Revven
FrankerZ
DD, Lucario can't really KO though, remember he still has AURA. He's a campy character to begin with. If you want to beat scrubs quickly, use a secondary that isn't a campy character and can actually combo into KO moves.
DarkDragoon
Smash Champion
Well, the problems are sort of character specific.
>_> I can't seem to kill as easy with Lucario anymore...maybe because I haven't played Lucario because Mewtwo was in the way for so long, but yea.
EDIT: and I know the aura thing is a problem too. Did they ever adjust it so that it starts and ends at an earlier percent? I don't know what dictates what level the aura is at in PSA, I only know how to disable it.
Peach[secondary] kinda has that problem too, but FThrow buff is cool, and FAir is pretty easy to hit with so its not a HUGE issue.
I don't really like how this Falco feels...I can't make him fluid. T-T;
SHL helps though.
-DD
Dan_X
Smash Lord
You guys are ridiculous. Really. To say that this game is slow is a joke. The one thing that has changed to effect the "speed" of the match is hitlag. Even the addition of hitlag has a negligable effect on the speed of the game. Seriously. The matches are just as intense now as they were previous to this build. I don't get it.
To think that you'd go for Melee becuase of added hitlag is a joke. Furhermore, I'd play Brawl+ over Melee anyday on the basis that it has new characters, a new more smooth feel (thanks to buffer), crawling, better levels, replays, so on and so forth. There's so much going for Brawl+ than speed alone... Which it has by the way.
I also find it hard to believe that you wouldn't **** a noob with your mains. It should be near effortless to crush scrubs. I never have long matches against scrubs... Unless I'm sandbagging to the max.
Edit: @Falco400,
yeah I was going to say the same thing about Lucario, despite my relative lack of Lucario knowledge.
@DD, you'd be killing faster if the scub you were fighing was inflicting damage on you. As only when Lucario is hurt badly is he truly powerful. Otherwise you'll rack up damage on the enemy and have a hard time killing them because of aura.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Lucario... isn't very good at killing.
Also, he has the "anti-scrub feature", which weakens him the farther in the lead he is.
Choose a new main if scrubs are so important.
DarkDragoon
Smash Champion
>_> Well I am sandbagging to the max. But it just seems slower than the previous build is all, I play Brawl+ over melee any day too. Lawl.
and its not the scrubs are important, its just all I have to play around here. No car @ college = Sadface.
*le sigh*
-DD
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
Lucas can't go even with every character. Not every matchup is SUPPOSED to be even. Character's are supposed to have some easy fights some hard fights, and some even fights.
In a perfect world Brawl would almost turn into a 40 man Rock, Paper, Scissors. Except with every Rock having at least the potential to beat the Papers, And, of course, scissor vs. scissors does not mean tie. It means awesome fast pace snip fight GO!
Of course if Lucas turns out to be Spock and dominate Rocks, Papers, and Scissors indiscriminately then we have an issue. That goes both was obviously (I can't think of a RPS reference for bad(Pinky?)).
DarkDragoon
Smash Champion
>_> Well if it should be a giant RO-SHAM-BO it should be more like "Power-Speed-Projectle"
Power > Speed, Projectile > Power, Speed > Projectile.
Lololol TheorySmash.
-DD
Dan_X
Smash Lord
@DD: what about Falco isn't fluid? I find him to be very fluid. He's almost graceful if you're using SHL correctly.
Concerning hitlag, also consider that only select moves were given an increase in hitlag, mostly being multihit moves that had very small amounts of hitlag (1 frame per cycle) to actually SDI, or the very powerful finishing moves to give more of a chance for correct survival DI. In the overall picture, B+ still has much less hitlag than Melee on a move to move basis. There would have had to have been a global increase of about 15-20% more hitlag to match Melee levels, so saying that the hitlag is drastically affecting the speed of the game seems bogus to me.
The moves that were affected are noticeable, but you can't really say that B+ is slower because of hitlag when Melee, the pinnacle of Smash as considered by many, had more. We could go to a global usage of Melee hitlag and I can guarantee we would have much more complaints about hitlag making the game slow.
I'm not saying B+ matches Melee speed, just making the point that it isn't hitlag. Melee's engine is what made Melee faster, and those are things Brawl cannot match no matter what you try to do. Brawl's engine just isn't designed to work like Melee's.
DarkDragoon
Smash Champion
o.o No, his SHL is beautiful. Things just don't seem to connect as easy. *shrug*.
I'll just play all night until stuff makes sense I guess.
I'm just a mess.
xD
-DD
ThatGuyYouMightKnow
Smash Champion
Look at the Falcon vs ICs matches at Hackfest and say this **** game is slow. Are you serious?
Two stocks in one minute.
Get at Brawl+.
It does feel a lot more balanced.
Two stocks in one minute.
Get at Brawl+.
It does feel a lot more balanced.
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 3,299
TGYMK, More like a Sonic + Sonic match would be fast. >.>
all jokes aside, I really think the hitlag is good as it is now. I mean, some things have to be different from Melee, right?
The only thing now that I really miss from melee is the black hole glitch ;_; but that would only be possible if we could recreate the scope glitch and turnips clanking with each other.
all jokes aside, I really think the hitlag is good as it is now. I mean, some things have to be different from Melee, right?
The only thing now that I really miss from melee is the black hole glitch ;_; but that would only be possible if we could recreate the scope glitch and turnips clanking with each other.
WheelOfFish
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2009
- Messages
- 387
What's wrong with a Melee 2.0 with decent character balance and a bigger roster again?
I know it won't ever happen, but you know.
I know it won't ever happen, but you know.
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 3,299
I actually would think a Melee 2.0 would be very cool, but it would ideally be a side project.
WheelOfFish
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2009
- Messages
- 387
Well, no. Scratch the last part of my post.
I think that Brawl+'s biggest problems will be fixed in the future... they're just figuring out the best ways to implement the changes.
I think that Brawl+'s biggest problems will be fixed in the future... they're just figuring out the best ways to implement the changes.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
WheelOfFish
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2009
- Messages
- 387
Maybe beat out by Samus vs. Sonic though.
And that's beat out by Samus vs anyone in Melee.
Make your way through some spam, knock her offstage and then hang back for a few minutes as Samus recovers. God, some of the dullest Melee matches I have seen come from Samus.
ThatGuyYouMightKnow
Smash Champion
There is one that works just like the Melee one. It's on YT somewhere.
Viquey
Smash Journeyman
I second the "yay Marth can recover again!"--I think MK26 said it? It's not even funny how many times I SD'd as him in the last build. Even being like a foot offstage was suicide. I think it was 'cause he fell too fast and his dolphin slash was shortened? I don't remember. I just know I gave up chasing people with fairs (or a dair) after the umpteenth time I SD'd. But that's better now! :D
BTW, any other Zamus+ mains 'round here? How awesome is she? |D
BTW, any other Zamus+ mains 'round here? How awesome is she? |D