Lucario Metagame General Discussion Current Topic: All about Aurasphere

culexus・wau · Sep 25, 2009

I tried to start this in the back room, but people were not being active about it most likely due to laziness, so I brought this idea from back there to in here. This thread is to discuss about Lucario on a deeper level then normal. The thing about talking about things on the surface, is that you limit yourself to only playing on the surface doing so. This is not a general chat. I would advise not to post random images in this thread, unless they are helping you support your opinion about something. Flame is not acceptable. What is being talked about in this thread, is to be respected by all players. If you disagree with something, state what it is in a mature manner. Any flame will have you excluded and ignored from the discussion.

This threads goal is to help push players into a mindset that will make them overall a better player.

IE: It is one thing to state how to punish something, but it is another thing to under stand the how's and why's one's option is better then another.

I would actually like this thread to resemble the debate section of the boards. talk about things and analyze them to its full extent.

Man RJ is so ****ing serious.

good thing I have OP now.

to be edited later

Standard board rules also apply for this thread. Without delaying this any longer, I will start off with something I posted for the back room.

iRJi · Sep 25, 2009

I am going to call this MU vs PMU meaning Matchups vs Player Matchups.

Lucario is one of those characters that has an option and a solution to over come his bad matchups. Lately, I have been saying that all of his Matchups are even, just each one of his matchups needs a different method to win. Unlike certain characters (IE: Diddy) who have universal options on almost every character in the game, Lucario has to think outside the box in order to win. I personally believe that Learning how to play Lucario, it opens options for other characters because you have to master techniques for Lucario that can be misused or not relied on for others. One of the biggest things Lucario has to do is bait people. It is accentual to his game and to his own character design. While other characters have more options to punish how people react due to certain aspects of their game play, Lucario isn't a character that revolves around just how a basic MU is described. He runs more on how to punish you opponent himself as a person.

Us as people have habits. How we abuse those habits is how Lucario needs to be played. Revolve around studying you opponent to a degree that you know what he is going to do before he does it, and punish him for it. Always keep your opponent guessing on what you going to do, and make him fear the fact that you know him so well in such a short time. To achieve this, a slower pace game play needs to be played for the first section of the match and use that time to study how your opponent reacts to your moves. From that point out, it is advised to work around what your opponent does and punish him for that.

Now the trick to this is, it needs to be done multiple times, because if the person you are playing against is a decent player, they will be looking for your habits as well to punish. Adjusting to how your opponent is adjusting to you is very crucial for how to play this game with Lucario. Idk, it's just my thoughts about it on a more deeper level. I will leave out on this note. A few words from a different game, that kind of relate to this:

"You can't break a man like you break a dog or a horse. The harder you beat a man, the taller he stands. To break a man's will, to break his spirit, you have to break his mind. Men have this idea that we can fight with dignity, that it's the proper way to kill someone. Its absurd, its in-aesthetic. We need to endure the bloody horror of murder. You must destroy that idea. Show them what a messy and terrible thing it is to kill a man and then show them that you relish in it. Shoot the wound, then execute the wounded; burn them. Take them in close combat. Destroy their preconceptions of what a man is, and you become their personal monster. When they fear you, you become stronger, you become better. But let's never forget, its a display, its a posture, like a lion's roar or a gorilla thumping at his chest. If you lose yourself with display, if you succumb to the horror, then you become the monster, you become reduced. Not more then a man, but less; and it can be fatal." ~ Far cry 2

Discuss.

G-Beast · Sep 25, 2009

iRJi said:
Lucario is one of those characters that has an option and a solution to over come his bad matchups. Lately, I have been saying that all of his Matchups are even, just each one of his matchups needs a different method to win. Unlike certain characters (IE: Diddy) who have universal options on almost every character in the game, Lucario has to think outside the box in order to win.

Amen. although there are MU's that are without question in our favor.. i think this thread that, with everyone on the Lucario boards contributing, will grow up to be smexy.

soooo... all even and better MUs like MK amirite??

Alus · Sep 25, 2009

I think you're trying too hard.

iRJi · Sep 25, 2009

G-Beast said:
Amen. although there are MU's that are without question in our favor.. i think this thread that, with everyone on the Lucario boards contributing, will grow up to be smexy.

soooo... all even and better MUs like MK amirite??

It is more of a mindset thing. To think about something like this can help or hurt the player. I want people to grow out of the mindset of " We have bad matchups, and that's why we lose to them" and start thinking about how to overcome what is suppose to be a bad MU. The rest of the post is how to obtain that goal and make it a reality rather then a child's fiction fantasy.

RT · Sep 25, 2009

I honestly believe Lucario is, in the grand scheme of Brawl's metagame, semi-viable at the very least. Lee Martin and Azen have proven this and other upcoming Lucario players are working their way there. His matchups against most of the top tiers are slightly disadvantaged, but he can deal with them. Lucario does have options, but the problem is that an average player does not know what a GOOD option is.

It really confuses me when people try so hard in doing something super flashy when the most basic choice is probably the best. I consider my playstyle pretty basic when compared to Lucarios...I use fsmash quite a bit, I use AS a fair amount, and I don't really camp (unless someone tries to do it against me, lolz). My Lucario is also pretty average in terms of speed, because I feel that speed does not equal good. Playing super aggressive doesn't usually work in my experience. Playing SMART, on the other end, is much more important.

Another thing that bothers me is when people aren't flexible with their choices. They feel like they HAVE to use this move in this situation. Flexibility is something all good players have, because every situation is unique. There isn't an end-all solution for any single situation. Players are different. No two people play exactly the same because their thought processes are different.

All in all, the best thing to do is to regularly play people who are better or at least as good as you. Defeating less-skilled opponents won't challenge you, and you can only get better by overcoming challenges. Playing someone who is better than you FORCES you to get better to survive. You don't realize it immediately, but you'll eventually get better with spacing, surviving, and making better choices. All the advice/theory craft in the world won't matter until you actually experience it.

Also, I think the MK matchup is borderline evenish, assuming you can survive initial gimp attempts by MK. If you can stay long on stage long enough, the matchup becomes more tolerable. Of course I'm saying this because I've played lots of MKs, lol...

G-Beast · Sep 25, 2009

I am not entirely sure where my Lucario stands... all i know is im one of the best players in newfoundland(and probably in the maritimes, as well) and that my vids are outdated... im hoping to get some newer ones soon

iRJi · Sep 25, 2009

Alus said:
I think you're trying too hard.

No, I honestly think you are not trying hard enough. See where this is going?

I honestly believe Lucario is, in the grand scheme of Brawl's metagame, semi-viable at the very least. Lee Martin and Azen have proven this and other upcoming Lucario players are working their way there. His matchups against most of the top tiers are slightly disadvantaged, but he can deal with them. Lucario does have options, but the problem is that an average player does not know what a GOOD option is.

It really confuses me when people try so hard in doing something super flashy when the most basic choice is probably the best. I consider my playstyle pretty basic when compared to Lucarios...I use fsmash quite a bit, I use AS a fair amount, and I don't really camp (unless someone tries to do it against me, lolz). My Lucario is also pretty average in terms of speed, because I feel that speed does not equal good. Playing super aggressive doesn't usually work in my experience. Playing SMART, on the other end, is much more important.

Another thing that bothers me is when people aren't flexible with their choices. They feel like they HAVE to use this move in this situation. Flexibility is something all good players have, because every situation is unique. There isn't an end-all solution for any single situation. Players are different. No two people play exactly the same because their thought processes are different.

All in all, the best thing to do is to regularly play people who are better or at least as good as you. Defeating less-skilled opponents won't challenge you, and you can only get better by overcoming challenges. Playing someone who is better than you FORCES you to get better to survive. You don't realize it immediately, but you'll eventually get better with spacing, surviving, and making better choices. All the advice/theory craft in the world won't matter until you actually experience it.

Also, I think the MK matchup is borderline evenish, assuming you can survive initial gimp attempts by MK. If you can stay long on stage long enough, the matchup becomes more tolerable. Of course I'm saying this because I've played lots of MKs, lol...

Good read. Anyone else with their opinion?

G-Beast · Sep 25, 2009

iRJi said:
Anyone else with their opinion?

I will write my wall of text later... i got my bday shenanigans to do >.>

CaliburChamp · Sep 25, 2009

Lucario can handle the top tiers pretty well. The hard ones for me though are Olimar, Falco, DDD, Snake, and G&W. I feel like Lucario can fight off MK pretty well as long as MK doesn't get a gimp in the game... and even then Lucario get's an aura boost from being down a stock.

And IMO... playing Lucario online and offline are 2 totally different playstyles. Lucario wins more online, mostly because powershielding online is so much harder, making it hard to dodge all those AS. Playing Lucario online gives you bad habits for when you play offline. Lee and Azen don't play online, which is part of the reason of their success offline.
To play Lucario better offline, you can't be so obvious, spamming AS isn't going to help that much, especially against the faster characters.

phi1ny3 · Sep 25, 2009

I'd like to rehash BardulL's words about skill increase and player-to-character knowledge, because I think it's quite solid:

"basically, the wise man was explaining how, in brawl, there are 3 levels. 1st is "n00b," 2nd is "getting there," 3rd is "pro status."

1st level: you don't know all of your options.
2nd level: you think you know all your options
3rd level: not only do you know all your options, but
your not restricted to just those options...you make your own options,
essentially.

it basically went something like that...

at first i was like "uhh...what do you mean by that? lol"

the wise man proceeded to take out an un-opened can of dr. pepper and a $5 bill. he set the dr. pepper on my left side, and the $5 on my right side.

"there is a dr. pepper and a $5 bill. which will you choose to take?"

i was like "obviously take the $5, cause then i could buy a dr. pepper with it AND have spare change left over."

the wise man laughed, and said "why not take both?"

the wise man then explained that, had i chosen the dr. pepper, i would basically be on the 1st level. if i chose to take the 5 using my logic, then i would be on the 2nd level. finally, if i had opted to take both, i would have been on the 3rd level, because i would have essentially created a new option.

the key here is...you should never restrict yourself to what you already know. it will only get you so far. players who don't restrict themselves will always be on top."

D. Disciple · Sep 25, 2009

Alright, alright I told you I would post here like a couple days ago and never did, so, here we go.

Lucario is a prime example of getting into your opponent's head for a few reasons.

One they worry about his aura buff, they want to make sure they kill you before you get too strong cause if it happens they fear they'll get killed in 3 to 4 hits. Lucario's options are somewhat limited but only if we limit our options, in certain match ups we need to either space ourselves out of danger to get in close to keep some pressure. But how I see it, if we're playing a character that we need to keep our spacing extremely well. I.E Snake or Metaknight, it is sometimes good to get in their face it makes them go into an unsafe mode and wondering what you're doing. From there we have a few options that we can do, our common fair-nair/dair is one, grabbing them, empty hop-dair, double fairs to retreat, fair-ffad or just shad-utilt/grab. There are a lot more options to do than the ones I listed but I don't want to stray to far from my point.

Eventually if we can keep that kind of pressure, then you will have them thinking this. "I'll just shield grab them, ftilt them out of shield, etc..." Once you figure out their habit, then it's time to mix it up on them run into their face, then back off without attacking at all to bait them into doing something unsafe then punish immediately, I actually got this to work against Moe and Nappy. (A Snake and MK main in MN). It's becoming quite effective against others, cause they try to space themselves safely from me, by rolling away then I'll dsmash them or utilt them out of their rolls.

What's this have to do with iRJi's post, it's more of thinking outside of the box, cause honestly how many of us will actually run into MK or Snake's face like that, or any other character that could abuse if we get too close to them.

Also we should also rethink our ways of approaching as well, I mean fair is our solid approach but I feel like we're being to strict on what else we can really do. Cause if your opponent jumps, what else can we actually do it attack them, beside just fairing them, why not uair them to pop them up a bit, then keep them there with multiple uairs. Yes fair comes out faster than uair, but there are times when I feel like I could be doing more to my opponents than just fairing them at times.

MythTrainerInfinity · Sep 25, 2009

Good thread.

@Phil - That advice has limited use to us if we do not know our options. Something like figuring out frame data and what Aura Sphere beats against every character will help. Heck even learning more about Lucario's chaingrab will be of some use.

What we need is a list of things to be tested (no matter how ridiculous or stupid they may seem) and we need to gain a mastery of them.

I feel Lucario has the potential to become a top tier character or at least quite a contender in the A tier. Not to the point of dominating like MK, but we have quite a complicated character on out hands (quite contrary to people's beliefs) because we still aren't even close to figuring out all of our basic options yet.

WakerofWinds · Sep 25, 2009

Personally I'd always thought of Lucario as the "character of the patient ones" if you will.

What I mean is that part of playing as Lucario is you can get into their heads early. Most people you play will constantly have it in their head that once they start getting you to that higher % they'll have to kill you fast so that you don't get the upper hand. The thing is that can be used to our advantage quite a bit. Staying just outside somebody's range and camping them that way sounds like a good idea to me. In addition you have to take note of the fact that Lucario gets stronger.

When this happens many people (at least a lot of people I've played) tend to get a bit nervous about how high his % is. If you play patiently and calmly then in most cases you'll get into their heads and have them going into bad habits long before you're doing those bad habits yourself.

Personally I always notice myself starting to calm down (just naturally) as my % gets higher and I start to notice patterns more easily (don't ask me why this is... it just happens that way). Not only that but I also tend to play a lot more defensively (which theoretically I could be doing the whole game if it worried me that much). I guess what I'm getting at is Lucario's gameplay can shift easily to help him adapt to the situation. Obviously after a decent amount of damage has been racked up the opponent is going to go for the kill, but he might start to get a bit sloppy at the same time. I guess what I'm saying is keep an eye out for that, exploit their weaknesses. *shrug* That's my two cents, and two cents it is.

phi1ny3 · Sep 25, 2009

MythTrainerInfinity said:
Good thread.

@Phil - That advice has limited use to us if we do not know our options. Something like figuring out frame data and what Aura Sphere beats against every character will help. Heck even learning more about Lucario's chaingrab will be of some use.

What we need is a list of things to be tested (no matter how ridiculous or stupid they may seem) and we need to gain a mastery of them.

I feel Lucario has the potential to become a top tier character or at least quite a contender in the A tier. Not to the point of dominating like MK, but we have quite a complicated character on out hands (quite contrary to people's beliefs) because we still aren't even close to figuring out all of our basic options yet.

We did:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236769
We learned that a lot of the stuff with "hidden potential" that was bad in nature generally was bad period, and a lot of people thought we should've been looking into reapplying moves that actually were useful, which I agreed with.
I don't completely agree with the sound of "mastering" every little AT, Link boards probably have better ones than we do and have tons more, and they use a small pool of them lol. I think it's a matter of what people really need to learn from the given moveset, I've been talking to some procarios that have found better uses for some already solid moves, and I agree that it only will get better if the board matures in terms of understanding and conceptual knowledge instead of looking for "the new thing" for something like Brawl.

RT · Sep 25, 2009

That's another I'm confused about. What's the point of learning every single little thing? Not everything is useful...just because something is there doesn't mean you should use it. <_<

phi1ny3 · Sep 25, 2009

^this.
That's like saying learning to master ganon utilt is worthwhile, or more specifically, DT.

Delta Z · Sep 25, 2009

Hey, that's Brawl for ya--defensive by nature, light on techs, heavy on mindgames.

I guess the big thing people underestimate about Lucario is that they only know that he can kill really well at higher precentages. What they don't realize is that at low damage he more damage based, like Diddy, Fox, Samus, etc. Luc is really at his worst when he's in between low & high aura levels, and unspecialized. But his killing moves have around average knockback by then. So if you got a lot of damage on your opponent while you were still at low damage yourself they're a threat anyway.

iRJi · Sep 25, 2009

Yay for everyone posting. I will let this continue for a bit, then state something else. I would like to hear everyones opinion. There is no write and wrongs here, just spreading knowledge to each other.

Aurasmash14 · Sep 25, 2009

WakerofWinds said:
Personally I'd always thought of Lucario as the "character of the patient ones" if you will.

What I mean is that part of playing as Lucario is you can get into their heads early. Most people you play will constantly have it in their head that once they start getting you to that higher % they'll have to kill you fast so that you don't get the upper hand. The thing is that can be used to our advantage quite a bit. Staying just outside somebody's range and camping them that way sounds like a good idea to me. In addition you have to take note of the fact that Lucario gets stronger.

When this happens many people (at least a lot of people I've played) tend to get a bit nervous about how high his % is. If you play patiently and calmly then in most cases you'll get into their heads and have them going into bad habits long before you're doing those bad habits yourself.

Personally I always notice myself starting to calm down (just naturally) as my % gets higher and I start to notice patterns more easily (don't ask me why this is... it just happens that way). Not only that but I also tend to play a lot more defensively (which theoretically I could be doing the whole game if it worried me that much). I guess what I'm getting at is Lucario's gameplay can shift easily to help him adapt to the situation. Obviously after a decent amount of damage has been racked up the opponent is going to go for the kill, but he might start to get a bit sloppy at the same time. I guess what I'm saying is keep an eye out for that, exploit their weaknesses. *shrug* That's my two cents, and two cents it is.

QFT. Lucario's aura power can act as a great mindgame or a sort of exposer of an opponents mindset. I have noticed once you hit 120% things start getting too tense for their liking. As he said, bad habits will be exposed, although probably without their realizing it allowing you to destroy them..It is also here where having a full packed aura sphere can help. From my own experience, The opponents approaches will become less straightforward, as A big AS is a scary thing. sometimes, the approach is even riskier than the old one. The thing is camping wont work here, as were already in a high percent, so they are forced to come near. aside from AS, i find tilts to be useful at these times, they are the fastest way of forcing the opponent to space while being in a relatively safe position.

HyperEnergy · Sep 25, 2009

iRJi said:
Us as people have habits. How we abuse those habits is how Lucario needs to be played. Revolve around studying your opponent to a degree that you know what he is going to do before he does it, and punish him for it.

To achieve this, a slower pace game play needs to be played for the first section of the match and use that time to study how your opponent reacts to your moves.

Now the trick to this is, it needs to be done multiple times, because if the person you are playing against is a decent player, they will be looking for your habits as well to punish.

Thank you so much for this. Lately I've felt that when I'm playing against someone at my level or higher, as soon as I adapt to that person's play-style I lose my ability to adapt again which usually makes me lose once my opponent figures out my play-style. But what you've just said made something click inside my mind.

But yeah, I'm glad I picked Lucario as my main. I have never felt like any character can shut down Lucario enough to guarantee an auto win against him and I always come away from smashfests or tournaments with an onslaught of new ideas on how to improve.

I think the main reason I like Lucario is because of his unique movements and hitboxes. He isn't a particularly fast character but instead has a whole bunch of options that work really well for him.

His ground movement may not allow him to keep up with some of his opponents but it allows him to position himself precisely enough to aim his various tilts and smashes accurately. And this brings me to Lucario's attacks; they have amazing properties and crazy disjointed range. Ftilt has two hits which is enough to throw off your opponent, utilt covers Lucario's entire body and basically acts as a pseudo-shield, fsmash hits a mile away and usmash lasts forever.

I especially love utilt; it is my favorite move hands down. Not only is it our best option to punish people that come from behind us out of shield or otherwise, it has enough disjointed range to act as a counter to many attacks from other characters. As an example I'll use Kirby who I have the most experience against.

Say Kirby wants to approach me with bair. If I move backwards and time an utilt just before he comes into contact with me, I can use utilt to hit him out of his bair and remain unharmed. Utilt has enough aura on it to shut down characters that lack large disjointed hitboxes (which is pretty much anyone without a sword except Ness). This ability to use utilt as a sort of force field really makes me excited to see how far I can go with him in tournaments.

Fair is the next amazing move on Lucario's list of amazing moves. To give a comparison of how amazing it is I'll use my secondary ZSS. Once upon a time I used to think ZSS was severly underrated and deserved somewhere around 7-10 in the tier list. Her speed was fast, her side B and bair gave her an above average level of killing power for her speed, her up B and usmash gave her an excellent pressuring tool when combined with platforms, her aerials were fast, she had an incredible spike and recovery and she had the ability to stun her opponents for quite a large amount of time.

Although after playing with her for a while, I realized most of her attacks except utilt needed strict spacing in order to hit. Bair hits in the area exactly where it looks like it would hit, fair doesn't get much use because it has terrible landing lag which is where it is most useful imo and side B has an enormous blind spot. After I realized these issues I pretty much gave up on ever using her seriously.

This is where Lucario shines though; his fair not only hits a fair amount in front of him but also above him and to put icing on the cake, below him as well. How many other characters do you know of that have an aerial that hits in a half circle in front of them. Fair's usefulness doesn't stop there though; it also has very low lag after it's hitbox ends which makes it possible to link it into an nair (which shuts down most attempts to attack out of shield), a dair (which acts as a good combo finisher), bair (for when you've conditioned your opponent to nairs), airdodges (which you can buffer into utilts/reverse grabs) and even more fairs.

I'd like to quickly mention that Lucario's dair and uair are also amazing aerials. Uair has a good amount of disjointedness above him and also lasts a while and has a hitbox that extends across Lucario's body. This makes it an ideal move to punish Mach Tornado from above and it even acts as a surprise kill move. Then dair is a contender for one of brawl's most versatile aerials. It has a huge hitbox below Lucario, hits twice and best of all it can be used to stall in the air. Better yet this stalling can be prevented out of shield hit stun making it even more useful (seriously, punishing certain things out of shield wouldn't be possible without this aspect of dair).

I think I'll finish this post off with a discussion about aura sphere before it gets too long (assuming it isn't there already). Aura sphere is one of the worst projectiles when it comes to camping, I think there is universal agreement on this. Although when compared to those other projectiles AS would get a much higher rating from me. Mario's fireballs, Lucas' pk fire, Ice Climber's ice blocks and Pikachu's thunderjolt are really only useful for forcing an approach or manipulating the opponent's movement. AS functions as a projectile to force approaches and manipulate movement, a kill move, a shield punisher, a fear inducer and a technique to manipulate our movement.

I might get some weird looks when I say it is a shield punisher (and not a completely useless one I might add) so allow me to explain myself. You know how we have this amazing aerial called dair? Well if you space it high enough above an opponent it can be safe on block. Normally after this you jump away to avoid punishment. But you can go farther than this and space yourself slightly higher than usual so that you can condition your opponent to expect multiple dairs. Once this conditioning is done you can spring the trap while your opponent sits in their shield; just use aura sphere charge after a dair. The main issue with using ASC as a shield punisher is that it is nearly impossible to set up but by using dair to stop your momentum, you can position yourself perfectly enough to land on top of your opponent with a shield hungry ASC (do not try this at 0% without charging first).

Also, I assure you this is not theory craft. I have done this successfully at least 3 times.

Next in line is the fear inducing part. There really isn't much to this though, when you are at high percent with a FCAS you'd better believe your opponents are on their toes.

Alright, to finish this off I'll talk a bit about b-reversals. Simply put they are awesome. ASC combined with Lucario's ability to cancel ASC from the air into an airdodge makes this technique extremely useful. If you are being juggled, b-reversals can prevent you from getting your landing lag punished. If you space fair incorrectly or are just worried about being punished for using the move, you can b-reversal into a quick airdodge to do a surprise retreat. The opposite also holds true, you can use retreating fairs to b-reversals to do a surprise approach into an utilt. And better yet, you can use broversals to bait a laggy move from your opponent and then be in prime position to punish.

Lord did I make this post long and to be honest I still have more things to say. Lol, it'll have to wait until later since I have a tournament to get to tomorrow and I'd like to get some sleep. So yeah, hopefully I didn't kill anybody by typing this much. >>

Also, tl:dr Lucario is amazing.

iRJi · Sep 26, 2009

HyperEnergy said:
Thank you so much for this. Lately I've felt that when I'm playing against someone at my level or higher, as soon as I adapt to that person's play-style I lose my ability to adapt again which usually makes me lose once my opponent figures out my play-style. But what you've just said made something click inside my mind.

But yeah, I'm glad I picked Lucario as my main. I have never felt like any character can shut down Lucario enough to guarantee an auto win against him and I always come away from smashfests or tournaments with an onslaught of new ideas on how to improve.

I think the main reason I like Lucario is because of his unique movements and hitboxes. He isn't a particularly fast character but instead has a whole bunch of options that work really well for him.

His ground movement may not allow him to keep up with some of his opponents but it allows him to position himself precisely enough to aim his various tilts and smashes accurately. And this brings me to Lucario's attacks; they have amazing properties and crazy disjointed range. Ftilt has two hits which is enough to throw off your opponent, utilt covers Lucario's entire body and basically acts as a pseudo-shield, fsmash hits a mile away and usmash lasts forever.

I especially love utilt; it is my favorite move hands down. Not only is it our best option to punish people that come from behind us out of shield or otherwise, it has enough disjointed range to act as a counter to many attacks from other characters. As an example I'll use Kirby who I have the most experience against.

Say Kirby wants to approach me with bair. If I move backwards and time an utilt just before he comes into contact with me, I can use utilt to hit him out of his bair and remain unharmed. Utilt has enough aura on it to shut down characters that lack large disjointed hitboxes (which is pretty much anyone without a sword except Ness). This ability to use utilt as a sort of force field really makes me excited to see how far I can go with him in tournaments.

Fair is the next amazing move on Lucario's list of amazing moves. To give a comparison of how amazing it is I'll use my secondary ZSS. Once upon a time I used to think ZSS was severly underrated and deserved somewhere around 7-10 in the tier list. Her speed was fast, her side B and bair gave her an above average level of killing power for her speed, her up B and usmash gave her an excellent pressuring tool when combined with platforms, her aerials were fast, she had an incredible spike and recovery and she had the ability to stun her opponents for quite a large amount of time.

Although after playing with her for a while, I realized most of her attacks except utilt needed strict spacing in order to hit. Bair hits in the area exactly where it looks like it would hit, fair doesn't get much use because it has terrible landing lag which is where it is most useful imo and side B has an enormous blind spot. After I realized these issues I pretty much gave up on ever using her seriously.

This is where Lucario shines though; his fair not only hits a fair amount in front of him but also above him and to put icing on the cake, below him as well. How many other characters do you know of that have an aerial that hits in a half circle in front of them. Fair's usefulness doesn't stop there though; it also has very low lag after it's hitbox ends which makes it possible to link it into an nair (which shuts down most attempts to attack out of shield), a dair (which acts as a good combo finisher), bair (for when you've conditioned your opponent to nairs), airdodges (which you can buffer into utilts/reverse grabs) and even more fairs.

I'd like to quickly mention that Lucario's dair and uair are also amazing aerials. Uair has a good amount of disjointedness above him and also lasts a while and has a hitbox that extends across Lucario's body. This makes it an ideal move to punish Mach Tornado from above and it even acts as a surprise kill move. Then dair is a contender for one of brawl's most versatile aerials. It has a huge hitbox below Lucario, hits twice and best of all it can be used to stall in the air. Better yet this stalling can be prevented out of shield hit stun making it even more useful (seriously, punishing certain things out of shield wouldn't be possible without this aspect of dair).

I think I'll finish this post off with a discussion about aura sphere before it gets too long (assuming it isn't there already). Aura sphere is one of the worst projectiles when it comes to camping, I think there is universal agreement on this. Although when compared to those other projectiles AS would get a much higher rating from me. Mario's fireballs, Lucas' pk fire, Ice Climber's ice blocks and Pikachu's thunderjolt are really only useful for forcing an approach or manipulating the opponent's movement. AS functions as a projectile to force approaches and manipulate movement, a kill move, a shield punisher, a fear inducer and a technique to manipulate our movement.

I might get some weird looks when I say it is a shield punisher (and not a completely useless one I might add) so allow me to explain myself. You know how we have this amazing aerial called dair? Well if you space it high enough above an opponent it can be safe on block. Normally after this you jump away to avoid punishment. But you can go farther than this and space yourself slightly higher than usual so that you can condition your opponent to expect multiple dairs. Once this conditioning is done you can spring the trap while your opponent sits in their shield; just use aura sphere charge after a dair. The main issue with using ASC as a shield punisher is that it is nearly impossible to set up but by using dair to stop your momentum, you can position yourself perfectly enough to land on top of your opponent with a shield hungry ASC (do not try this at 0% without charging first).

Also, I assure you this is not theory craft. I have done this successfully at least 3 times.

Next in line is the fear inducing part. There really isn't much to this though, when you are at high percent with a FCAS you'd better believe your opponents are on their toes.

Alright, to finish this off I'll talk a bit about b-reversals. Simply put they are awesome. ASC combined with Lucario's ability to cancel ASC from the air into an airdodge makes this technique extremely useful. If you are being juggled, b-reversals can prevent you from getting your landing lag punished. If you space fair incorrectly or are just worried about being punished for using the move, you can b-reversal into a quick airdodge to do a surprise retreat. The opposite also holds true, you can use retreating fairs to b-reversals to do a surprise approach into an utilt. And better yet, you can use broversals to bait a laggy move from your opponent and then be in prime position to punish.

Lord did I make this post long and to be honest I still have more things to say. Lol, it'll have to wait until later since I have a tournament to get to tomorrow and I'd like to get some sleep. So yeah, hopefully I didn't kill anybody by typing this much. >>

Also, tl:dr Lucario is amazing.

You sir, just made my day :laugh:

Kitamerby · Sep 26, 2009

HyperEnergy said:
How many other characters do you know of that have an aerial that hits in a half circle in front of them.

Marth. Meta Knight. Ike. Bowser. Snake. Sheik. Ness. Ivysaur. Then, there are the >quarter circles that are nearly as ranged. Ness. Toon Link. ROB. DDD. Olimar. Luigi. Ice Climbers. Donkey Kong. Ganondorf. The list goes on....

Fair's usefulness doesn't stop there though; it also has very low lag after it's hitbox ends which makes it possible to link it into an nair (which shuts down most attempts to attack out of shield)

Fair Nair isn't safe on block. It never was... unless you're fighting someone like ZSS.

The main issue with using ASC as a shield punisher is that it is nearly impossible to set up but by using dair to stop your momentum, you can position yourself perfectly enough to land on top of your opponent with a shield hungry ASC (do not try this at 0% without charging first).

Actually, the main issue with using ASC is that it stales your best move, Aura Sphere, REALLY fast. It's usually never worth the 2-3% that you get out of it. <<

Aura sphere is one of the worst projectiles when it comes to camping

False. At high % to the cap, even BAS has a knack for really tearing through other projectiles, and its ability to tear through projectiles when charged at lower % makes it a pretty good camping tool.

Also, for my own 2 cents, Fsmash is amazing. Aura Sphere kills.

Rockettrainer said:
That's another I'm confused about. What's the point of learning every single little thing? Not everything is useful...just because something is there doesn't mean you should use it. <_<

The point of learning everything is so that you are prepared when the time comes. A lucario can go very far without ever learning to curve his Extremespeed, but eventually, there comes a time that he truly needs to curve it properly. If he did not learn this, he will die. If he did, he will be glad that he spent that time practicing. Small things like these can make or break a match.

tedward2000 · Sep 26, 2009

I now want to try Dair Traps (Dairing to ASC). Hell just in general try to find what other moves we can trap people with. But mostly work on Dairing into ASC.

I still love that broversal is now semi-common term for B-reversal.
And I clap for Hyperenergy and his love for lucario.
-t2

CaliburChamp · Sep 26, 2009

My new favorite thing to do with Lucario is F-air, Up-air, double jump, F-air, D-air if opponent gets close, N-air to auto cancel and start the pseudo wall of pain again.

RT · Sep 26, 2009

Kitamerby said:
The point of learning everything is so that you are prepared when the time comes. A lucario can go very far without ever learning to curve his Extremespeed, but eventually, there comes a time that he truly needs to curve it properly. If he did not learn this, he will die. If he did, he will be glad that he spent that time practicing. Small things like these can make or break a match.

This falls under the category of knowing how to recover. <_<

I'm talking about the OTHER random techs and what not in which people try to find a use, but there isn't a good reason to justify spending time on it. Most of it is just flashy/silly and you could do just as well without them.

I'm not knocking on flashy players since a person is defined by how they play, but sometimes it just isn't necessary to do good IMO. Why climb over a wall if you can just walk around it? <_<

MythTrainerInfinity · Sep 26, 2009

Hmm well I guess we don't need to master everything (because we already know some stuff that won't work), but at least we should look into some things that we know does have some potential.

Ex. B-Reversals (check to see if it can "bucket brake"), Non-Stall D-Air, complete Aura Sphere priority, framedata stuff (I be there might be even a frame trap with Double Team worth looking into), etc.

Not everyone has access to the framedata stuffs (I don't), but I'm sure the other things could be tested by just about anyone who has Brawl.

The Aura Sphere priority thing is very important in my eyes... Wouldn't you love to know exactly when something will cause something like Snake's Grenades to be blown up? That will open up all sorts of additional mindgames that will increase Lucario's options.

DAir has some other goofy properties that need to be looked to as well...

Here's something I found after Kitamerby mentioned some shield pressure shenanigans in the Lucario xat chat...If you shield break someone's shield with DAir at the edge of a stage you can push their body off of the stage when they spring up since you're already in the air, they won't grab the edge, and they will simply plummet to their death.

I feel inspired, so I'm going to look into the Aura Sphere Priority things now and gather some delicious data. Om nom.

WakerofWinds · Sep 26, 2009

Rockettrainer said:
This falls under the category of knowing how to recover. <_<

I'm talking about the OTHER random techs and what not in which people try to find a use, but there isn't a good reason to justify spending time on it. Most of it is just flashy/silly and you could do just as well without them.

I'm not knocking on flashy players since a person is defined by how they play, but sometimes it just isn't necessary to do good IMO. Why climb over a wall if you can just walk around it? <_<

I think if you looked in Kita's logic you would see that you needn't climb over the wall or go around it. Why do either of those when you can smash through it?

Random techs that you happen to learn will often become helpful in the most random situations, if only because the person you're playing won't see it coming. You can be good, you can be GREAT, you can be plain amazing... but one day you may be playing and wish you remembered how to do that one tech you had heard about.

I could be wrong about all of this but... hey, then again, learning random techs is fun for me since it gives me another option in those maybe 1/100000000 times when it would be useful... but that one time could win me the match as opposed to losing it.

CaliburChamp · Sep 26, 2009

MythTrainerInfinity said:
Hmm well I guess we don't need to master everything (because we already know some stuff that won't work), but at least we should look into some things that we know does have some potential.

Ex. B-Reversals (check to see if it can "bucket brake"), Non-Stall D-Air, complete Aura Sphere priority, framedata stuff (I be there might be even a frame trap with Double Team worth looking into), etc.

Not everyone has access to the framedata stuffs (I don't), but I'm sure the other things could be tested by just about anyone who has Brawl.

The Aura Sphere priority thing is very important in my eyes... Wouldn't you love to know exactly when something will cause something like Snake's Grenades to be blown up? That will open up all sorts of additional mindgames that will increase Lucario's options.

DAir has some other goofy properties that need to be looked to as well...

Here's something I found after Kitamerby mentioned some shield pressure shenanigans in the Lucario xat chat...If you shield break someone's shield with DAir at the edge of a stage you can push their body off of the stage when they spring up since you're already in the air, they won't grab the edge, and they will simply plummet to their death.

I feel inspired, so I'm going to look into the Aura Sphere Priority things now and gather some delicious data. Om nom.

We already tried all these things. B reversing AS does not halt your momentum. Aura sphere at high % can go through anything, except grenades, pikmin, waddle dee's, basically anything that's not an high priority item, I do believe AS goes through Diddy bananas though.

MythTrainerInfinity · Sep 26, 2009

You've tested Reversing Aura Sphere, but what about a wavebounced Force Palm? There's still a lot of ground for us to cover.

I started the Aura Sphere Priority Project, so feel free to contribute if you have time.

RT · Sep 26, 2009

WakerofWinds said:
I think if you looked in Kita's logic you would see that you needn't climb over the wall or go around it. Why do either of those when you can smash through it?

Random techs that you happen to learn will often become helpful in the most random situations, if only because the person you're playing won't see it coming. You can be good, you can be GREAT, you can be plain amazing... but one day you may be playing and wish you remembered how to do that one tech you had heard about.

I could be wrong about all of this but... hey, then again, learning random techs is fun for me since it gives me another option in those maybe 1/100000000 times when it would be useful... but that one time could win me the match as opposed to losing it.

Random techs aren't terrible to learn because learning them is fun, but more often than not, you will not find a good use for them or they do not significantly contribute to the character's metagame. Pit has a eleventy billion arrow tricks, do any of them actually help win matches? Not really...his metagame would probably be better if the players stopped focusing on them. Relying on gimmicky techs won't work at high levels. It just won't...but some people won't realize this until they start playing high level players.

Lucario doesn't have that many useful ATs, but he doesn't really need it. Once again, Azen and Lee Martin have proven this. They are smart players with good spacing and are able to read their opponents. Do you see them lots of random ATs? <_<

Also, about the whole business on memorizing frame data and whatnot...I think it's a waste of time. Yeah, it might help you in certain situations, but experience can fills in the gaps. No one will be frame perfect so knowing numbers alone won't do much.

Once again, not trying to knock people down on their efforts or how they play. You can play and approach the game in whatever way you wish. These are just my opinions. Take them as you will...

WakerofWinds · Sep 26, 2009

Rockettrainer said:
Random techs aren't terrible to learn because learning them is fun, but more often than not, you will not find a good use for them or they do not significantly contribute to the character's metagame. Pit has a eleventy billion arrow tricks, do any of them actually help win matches? Not really...his metagame would probably be better if the players stopped focusing on them. Relying on gimmicky techs won't work at high levels. It just won't...but some people won't realize this until they start playing high level players.

Lucario doesn't have that many useful ATs, but he doesn't really need it. Once again, Azen and Lee Martin have proven this. They are smart players with good spacing and are able to read their opponents. Do you see them lots of random ATs? <_<

Also, about the whole business on memorizing frame data and whatnot...I think it's a waste of time. Yeah, it might help you in certain situations, but experience can fills in the gaps. No one will be frame perfect so knowing numbers alone won't do much.

Once again, not trying to knock people down on their efforts or how they play. You can play and approach the game in whatever way you wish. These are just my opinions. Take them as you will...

Yeah I meant to edit my post to say that it really doesn't help his metagame but the internet here cut out. XD Either way I completely agree with simply improving upon his already excellent moves as opposed to trying to find uses for moves that are, well, not useful. Unlike DT which is completely useful all the time. :laugh:

Trela · Sep 26, 2009

Rockettrainer said:
Once again, Azen and Lee Martin have proven this. They are smart players with good spacing and are able to read their opponents. Do you see them lots of random ATs? <_<

Lee knows how and when to use my ATs like better than I can. I just use them to show off most of the time, which I shouldnt be doing.

I dunno about Azen. I'll see him use the Juke Charge sometimes! Wahahahaha!

RT · Sep 26, 2009

Lee uses your ATs? Or is it perhaps...you using his? Hmm.

Also, Pokemon hat.

Trela · Sep 26, 2009

Rockettrainer said:
Lee uses your ATs? Or is it perhaps...you using his? Hmm.

Also, Pokemon hat.

Well yeah I guess lol I showed him how I use mine, so, sweet.

And SHOVE IT!

#HBC | Red Ryu · Sep 27, 2009

I don't really do a lot of AT's, except B-Reversal, a lot of them seem like their just for show and don't have many reasonable applications. While it is nice to learn some really funny and interesting techs, Ganon super jumps, I want to focus more on stuff that I'll actually use in a match.

I don't want us to end up like the Pit boards were for a while researching techs while letting their metagame stale when most of the techs weren't helping them.

Mastering basics is really where most Lucario's should improve and try to learn. Learn AT's when they will help your game, not to say you can't learn some fun things like Link's Bomb C4 tricks or Ness's Yoyo fun but it would be better when trying to improve to look for techs and research ones that will advance your game.

CaliburChamp · Sep 27, 2009

For a stage like Castle Siege, or Norfair, I was thinking you should DI and momentum cancel with F-air and fast fall, then use up+b, and move toward the stage, and as ES ends, fast fall quickly back onto the stage. I can see this making Lucario live 30% longer than usual.

Kitamerby · Sep 27, 2009

Rockettrainer said:
This falls under the category of knowing how to recover. <_<

I'm talking about the OTHER random techs and what not in which people try to find a use, but there isn't a good reason to justify spending time on it. Most of it is just flashy/silly and you could do just as well without them.

I'm not knocking on flashy players since a person is defined by how they play, but sometimes it just isn't necessary to do good IMO. Why climb over a wall if you can just walk around it? <_<

I realize that maybe that wasn't the best example. Lucario's "advanced techniques" are probably not good examples to use when discussing the importance of practicing technical skill, as they are all for the most part offensive and as such can be argued for alternate situations in the examples given, however they may or may not be as effective in that position in time.

Instead, I'll give a match-up example.

Lucario can chaingrab Ness, however it is not common for Lucarios to bother learning how, as it is very irritating to learn the timing, and the window for error is a bit small. But if a Lucario does learn it, it gives him a much greater punish option from a grab, giving him a greater edge in the matchup. It takes time to get the cg down, as well as learning the easiest way to get grabs on Ness, but it pays off in the long run once you finally fight a Ness main that might have defeated you otherwise.

On a similar note, "broversaling" may allow you an extra option against a Marth from a short hop feint, possibly netting you a kill, and learning to cancel your aura sphere may allow you to possibly kill with an immediate short hop nair after landing an aura sphere charge on some characters with poor options to escape it, like ZSS.

Situational options often do have uses... in their proper situations, and they just give you the edge you need to win a match here and there.

HyperEnergy · Sep 27, 2009

Hm, I disagree with some of your points Kitamerby.

Kitamerby said:
Marth. Meta Knight. Ike. Bowser. Snake. Sheik. Ness. Ivysaur. Then, there are the >quarter circles that are nearly as ranged. Ness. Toon Link. ROB. DDD. Olimar. Luigi. Ice Climbers. Donkey Kong. Ganondorf. The list goes on....

Allow me to correct myself, not many characters have an fair with a half circle hitbox that extends past their body vertically (and actually, it's slightly more than half a circle), has a large level of disjointedness, comes out all at once on frame seven and ends quickly. I think it is still quite an amazing attack.

Kitamerby said:
Fair Nair isn't safe on block. It never was... unless you're fighting someone like ZSS.

It still is a viable technique though, because you're not going to find many people with enough reaction time to punish it properly all the time and if you are getting punished for it, you're overdoing it lol.

Kitamerby said:
Actually, the main issue with using ASC is that it stales your best move, Aura Sphere, REALLY fast. It's usually never worth the 2-3% that you get out of it. <<

Well, that's completely subjective. I see no problem with staling AS.

Kitamerby said:
False. At high % to the cap, even BAS has a knack for really tearing through other projectiles, and its ability to tear through projectiles when charged at lower % makes it a pretty good camping tool.

That is arguably a situational scenario. Most of my matches are spent at low to mid-high percents. And even with FCASs at low percents, without flawless power shielding abilities or a good positional advantage (which isn't that common) you probably won't be able to charge AS that efficiently.

Also, speaking of situational options, I'd like to mention that if you use extreme speed above the ground you can aim the control stick slightly above the diagonally-down notches to land ES the lowest lag possible way (aside from extreme awesome). This is useful occasionally against Dedede and Ice Climbers who can punish you harshly if they catch you upon landing, but are otherwise too slow to punish you otherwise.

MythTrainerInfinity · Sep 28, 2009

A BAS that isn't stale at all at 155% beats MK's 'Nado due to it doing 10%.You know how MK's have that attitude of "I'm going to get you in the air and kill you". I s'pose that's another safeguard you can keep in mind and it doesn't take long to give it a bit of a charge that does 12% without any staleness. If it is stale a lil' it wouldn't take too long to charge it up and fire it at the Whorenado.

I keep telling people Aura Sphere priority has huge potential!

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