Pokémon Trainer VS Wario

Vermy · Sep 28, 2009

POKEMON TRAINER VS WARIO

With the recent outbreak of Wario mains since Tier List 3.0, i feel we all need to know how to deal with the greasy, gassy biker. I don't know alot about the matchup, but i don't think its a huge margin in Wario's favour, if at all. Thoughts/Experiences/Matchup Videos would be awesome.

Zigsta · Sep 28, 2009

I'll see if I can get some matches with PhantomX recorded. In my experience, Squirtle does the best with Charizard usually second best, and Ivysaur's a close third. Wario's a pretty tough matchup since he has so many options--way more than we have.

CoonTail · Sep 28, 2009

Wario is my personal worst matchup because I cannot stand him.....his weakness' still dont kill him his recovery is the most ridiculous thing ever figuring even when in the bubble he can double jump bike jump then fart and still have an up-b. This basterd is malicious and in order to beat a wario you have to kill him to the point where he cant come back. Overall beating wario requires you to use the air-releases we have on him, spikes and close to the bubble gimps. No other ways are guarenteed KOs.

Zard's flameguard is really strong against wario and squirtles f-air and d-air off the stage real close to the edge are the only big ways Ive seen wario die like a low tier lol.

T-block · Sep 28, 2009

Ooh let's talk air releases... assuming you can land a grab on Wario =x

I always use u-air to u-air with Squirtle. I don't think f-smash/u-smash are guaranteed, although they can work if Wario doesn't jump right away. I think Ivysaur gets a u-air, which is really sexy, and Charizard gets u-smash. Anything else you guys use that I might be missing?

Squirtle's d-air is really helpful, as I find Wario's tend to be more spotdodge/airdodge happy, and on the ground use lots of f-tilt and jab. When it comes to Ivysaur and Charizard I just abuse the fact that we've got a lot more range than he does. All in all I think it comes down to how smart you can approach, since Wario will have no problem waiting you out. Don't fall for easy baits and you should be okay.

CoonTail · Sep 28, 2009

Yes also the easy baits come from f-tilts and jabs because the natural thought is to try and get around or over him and thats when he does the chomp which IMO is devestating against our poke trio because of how much damage that racks and the ways it chains.

Guys my 300th post is my next one and theres gonna be a thread put up about it because the way I approach these boards will change so look for the new thread because I have a good amount to say in celebration.

Asa · Sep 28, 2009

Ivy can fair out of an air release, I believe.

I do a fair out of an air release with charizard at the edge if their bike is on the stage

toobusytocare · Sep 28, 2009

i find squirtle to be the hardest out of the 3 for sure

the others are pretty easy...

but you prolly knew that squirtle ***** xD

smashkng · Sep 28, 2009

I think only Ivysaur can force Wario to jump break from grabs (who has a laggy grab anyway) without being in the edge which is really situational considering he recovers high thanks to bike. No top Wario player will be stupid with the mashing to jump break (which occurs if he taps up or jump button).

Tien2500 · Sep 28, 2009

If Wario is playing as campy as they can I'm not sure if Zard or Ivy have the tools to catch him. (Depending on the stage.) So if he gets enough of the lead that cam be trouble. Stage CPs are going to make a hughe difference so that would be something good to discuss. Reflex should have some good info on this matchup.

Bestiarius · Sep 28, 2009

I'm probably wrong here, but it seems like Ivy and Zard both outrange him, it's just that he has such sick aerial mobility that they both have to play reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally smart to use it. Squirtle just gets buttsecksed because Wario is about as fast in the air as he is and has crazy priority, damage, and knockback. It's a crapsheet for Squirtle, no question, so we need to figure out plans with the other two.

Zigsta · Sep 28, 2009

It's because Squirtle is so great in the air that he can keep up with Wario, Beast. Squirtle has more options than Charizard and Ivysaur, which makes him a great Pokemon to use against opponents with many options such as Wario.

PhantomX · Sep 28, 2009

Squirtle may be light but his great jab and grown speed in addition to solid air speed definitely make him the best contender against Wario. Ivysaur is pretty much gonna get insta-gimped, Charizard can space moderately well with rock smash, but once Wario gets in it's combo and bite city on him.

Toby. · Sep 28, 2009

smashkng is correct. We can only force air releases with ivysaur unless we're grabbing wario over an edge. of course we can get force air releases on stages with uneven ground, but we really don't want to be taking wario somewhere like yoshis island.

By the way, wario definitely has the advantage.

Bestiarius · Sep 28, 2009

Ok, we know that we're in an uphill battle, no question. But I don't think Ivysaur can be completely ruled out just becuase of his recovery. Yeah, gimping's a danger, but it's always a danger, so we should have some idea of how to try to prevent it and handle it. I can't believe(literally) that Squirtle would be the best option here. Wario is in many ways almost like a better version of Squirtle. I just can't see Squirtle being able to hold his own because Wario is better in the air than Squirtle, and if Squirtle can't own the air, he can't play like Squirtle. I think Charizard can space very effectively with Flamethrower and Rock Smash, and, as only a last ditch desperation attempt, he may have to try to go for a SHFF fair.

Toby. · Sep 28, 2009

Wario being better than squirtle doesn't mean that squirtle isn't the best option. Wario is waaay better than ivysaur, and charizards sapcing options and slow, predictable and easily countered.

All three are at a disadvantage. It just so happens that squirtle is the best at keeping wario out and applying pressure.

Magik0722 · Sep 28, 2009

I personally believe that Charizard is the best in this matchup

Squirtles upangled ftilt is too good, but seriously i actually just try to water gun camp him the entire time.
dont get grab because hell end up landing a fmash on you.

Ivy gets wrecked but yall talking about air releases? isnt hypen upsmash guaranteed?

Bestiarius · Sep 28, 2009

Suckage

.

Toby. · Sep 28, 2009

hyphen upsmash with who? ivysaur definitely can't land it.

Magik0722 · Sep 28, 2009

Hmm ive landed it a few times, maybe its when i grabbed them out of their second jump

Bestiarius · Sep 28, 2009

Wait, wait. Don't we all have some gay grab thing on Wario?

Magik0722 · Sep 28, 2009

Squirte and charizard dont

Zigsta · Sep 28, 2009

Magik, why Water Gun camp when Wario will just fart camp?

Magik0722 · Sep 28, 2009

well if you have the percent advantage you can run out the clock, makes it even hard to approach you, wont get close enough to pull the waft.

Get the lead with charizard camp the rest of the game with squirtle is my strategy

Bestiarius · Sep 28, 2009

So Ivysaur is the only one with the grab release cheap thing on Wario?

Zigsta · Sep 28, 2009

I've seen Magik do fair from a grab release with Squirtle. Is that guaranteed, Magik?

Despite playing PX, I haven't tested any grab shenanigans, haha.

Magik0722 · Sep 28, 2009

I did it against a wario?

typically i try a grab release a single time against a wario im playing, if i see they dont know how to not get air released i abuse it.

Zigsta · Sep 28, 2009

Yeah, it was at HOBO 18. I can't remember which Wario you did it on, though, but you did it about three times in one match.

T-block · Sep 28, 2009

Yeah I always test the grab release too... a surprising number of people will just do circles on the analog stick once they're grabbed. He can definitely jump before he gets hit by Ivy's u-smash, but I think u-air is guaranteed. Squirtle's f-air should be guaranteed too if he air releases.

IMO even with Ivysaur's range he still can't keep Wario and his air mobility at bay, so I use Squirtle/Charizard more in this matchup.

PhantomX · Sep 28, 2009

I'm sorry, but I really really don't see how you're gonna be getting any leads on Wario with Charizard.

Vermy · Sep 29, 2009

@PX:
Getting lucky with a crunchy rocksmash>usmash (true combo) for 61% comes to mind, but I don't think we'll be outrunning him anytime soon. I can see usmash is general being useful in this matchup, which takes the kill out of it. Warios nair, dair and bite will give Zard a LOT of trouble. And clap combos at early % will get damage up fast. Zard is grounded, and hasn't got great anti-aerial moves, so this is easily a 60-40 Warios favour.

Ivy I don't think is that bad. Not great, but use the typical SSS and have ivy 2nd stock and switch to Zard half way through. Grab release>fair/uair/usmash would be great, but we shouldn't depend on it. Wario won't be grabbed easily.
Again, 60-40. At worst, 65-35.

Nothing special needs to be done with Squirtle. Go about you're business, hydrograb, hp dsmash will do wonders, your jab>his jab. Juggle if you can, don't get hasty with uairs/utilts or you might take a waft to the face. Wario is better than Squirtle, but not by a huge margin.
55-45 Wario imo.

A 60-40 MU. Uphill battle, but not impossible if you play your cards right.
Research is needed for this. Guaranteed attacks from air release, what we can rocksmash counter (definately not his fsmash -_-), best spacing tools, and best stage. I'm going to a friend's place for a meet tomorrow and he seconds a very solid Wario, I'll test them out then.

IIRC, Yoshis Island is one of the worse stages for Wario, and PT doesn't hate it.

Toby. · Sep 29, 2009

Yoshis can screw wario over with the bike, but it elminates our ability to kill him traditionally. High ceilings are lame.

Squirtle is worse than 45:55.

It could only maybe be 45:55 if you don't intend on killing him with squirtle. If you do, remember that the style of play that both players will be forced to use guarantees a fatigued squirtle. Fatigued squirtle won't be killing until around 180%, maybe higher. Wario can always kill us around 100%.

Also, our jab out speeding his isn't really that important. I don't see why wario players would bother trying to jab us when they could just be staying in the air. That having been said, his jab seems to have crazy amounts of hitstun.

CoonTail · Sep 29, 2009

I wonder if squirtle's up-angled f-tilt has better range than the bite because if you manage to bait a bite he jus kinda sits there and thats deffinitly something we can take advantage of if it is really a capability

Magik0722 · Sep 29, 2009

yes up angled fltilt is too good against wario

PhantomX · Sep 29, 2009

The hitstun and range is what makes Wario's jab great to use,

You can beat bite with lots of moves if he's holding it on the ground, upangled ftilt is probably not the ones you'd want to waste that opportunity on.

Toby. · Sep 29, 2009

A while ago I went on a rant in the back room about how amazing squirtles ftilt and uptilt are in this matchup.

long story short: they are pretty great.

CoonTail · Sep 29, 2009

Because honestly it hasnt been said but no one reverse shifts enough....yes shell shifting is predictable and so is hydroplanning....but once your hydro planes go in either direction a player no longer knows which way you will go and this is an advantage no player takes. Every marth and wario I have fought expect me to just hydroplane everything and the amount of times Ive gotten free grabs because I reverse shift jabbed and they threw out a smash or grab in prediction of my hydroplane has been nuts. Not to mention F-tilt stop hydroplaning momentum so this should be toyed around with in this matchup because if he beats us in the air then we have to beat him on the ground and this is what we should be discussing.

Magik0722 · Sep 29, 2009

So PX, you going to HOBO? I'd like to record some games against you and try out all the different strategies that are posted on this thread

Itll be mutally benefical to both to PT and wario boards to put on your Matchup showcase video thread

PhantomX · Sep 29, 2009

Yeah, sounds good to me. As of now I should be fine to go unless random **** happens. You'll have to come up to me and find me, I'm usually bouncing around all over the place talking to people XD

Make sure to remind me to play serious, b/c I tend to goof off against low tiers >_>

Steeler · Sep 29, 2009

wario scares me

smashkng · Sep 29, 2009

Don't up smash out of grab release. Ivysaur's up smash is too slow to ever hit Wario out of a grab release. He will have the chance to air dodge so even if he hasn't his jump he can escape. Maybe grab release to bullet seed can do some quick damage.

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