Chibo on the Diddy Matchup

Yea, it's not time for this matchup discussion yet, but I just wrote an awesome post on the matchup that I feel a lot of you would like to read.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8497251&postcount=187

Pierce7d said:

I'll teach you the Snake MU when I'm in PA. I don't think ROB is going to bounce into the high tier because he doesn't at all beat the rest of the cast soundly. I hear ROB slaughters ICs, so I've just taken that for granted and can imagine it, though I've never seen the MU being played. Can you elaborate on ROB vs Diddy? I don't see why ROB has the advantage.

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ROB can take Diddys bananas and use them almost just as good as Diddy can. This also helps solve ROB's killing problem as bananas serve as a nice setup into fsmash, which is hard to land normally with it's short range. Also since fsmash is hard to land, it's almost always not staled at all, so if you hit with it at a nice percent, it should kill.

ROB can throw a gyro into a mess of bananas and Diddy and extremely mess up his banana planning and spacing and either confuse Diddy with throwing in 3 items (that has a hurt box while standing there) or buy you time to rack up damage with lasers or steal one of his bananas.

Diddy has no aerials that outprioritize ROB's aerial options. I believe the only thing is throwing a banana.

ROB is safe to go off stage wherever he pleases, and unlike some MUs like MK, he doesn't have to worry about making it back since Diddy really isn't an off stage character, ROB will always find an opening to make it back without worrying about wasting gas. He is one of the best characters at gimping Diddy, either by stopping Diddy's overB part of his recovery with fair or laser from on stage, or bair from the ledge. When Diddy is forced to recover low (which happens all the time in the matchup), if you nail the timing right and Diddy is recovering from very low (like not right near the ledge) you can let go of the ledge and dair Diddy out of his upB killing him at any percent from there essentially, or you can let go and fair Diddy and sort of push him under the stage, which works on stages with solid ground like Battlefield (but not hollow ones like Halberd).

ROBs tilts (especially ftilt) are safe on Diddy compared to all of his physical moves. The only thing Diddy can really use to get around it is GT'ing bananas.

Diddy doesn't have too many options while falling. Popping Diddy up in the air with moves as simple as dash attack can lead to awesome strings of attacks. Lately Diddys have relied on wavebouncing their popgun to fall to the ground in a random fashion, but I personally find that tactic quite easy to read and follow for more punishes.

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So split into two parts, off stage game and on stage game. When it's off stage, ROB has a very strong advantage on Diddy. When both characters are on stage, the simple trend you can see from my above analysis is that Diddy is hopeless without his bananas as ROB's physical moves trump Diddys. ROB however has a fairly nice time messing up Diddys banana game compared to a lot of characters between throwing a gyro into the mix, sniping Diddy with lasers to make him mess up grabbing bananas, etc. Also ROB is able to use the bananas when he gets ahold of them to his own advantage pretty nice. One of the most annoying parts of the MU imo is when I'm on the ledge and Diddy is on stage. He can have a banana ready to punish any of ROB's slow get up options, and the popgun forces me to get up. This is why I like to CP a hollow stage like Halberd to give me a crap load of options for getting back on the stage, normally while dealing nice damage with moves like uair that Diddy has a tough time getting around and punishing.

After all, with all of this in mind I just took ADHD to 3rd game this weekend (winning on my CP Halberd because of what I said about not worrying about ledge problems helps so much). I also was about to get the sweet fair gimp off stage I mentioned earlier pushing Diddy under the stage, but ADHD just had to go and tech the underside of the stage when I fair'd him and I just missed the follow up That could have gotten me to win the neutral match.

Even though it's mostly a waste to post it here, just to respond to the quoted passage, Marth doesn't exactly beat many characters soundly either. :/ ROB is simply a very strong "neutral" character with a couple decent match-ups against his fellow upper tiers (Diddy, Snake somewhat)... and one glaring weakness against that god-forsaken MK. Obviously, I can't entirely remove my bias but I can't see how ROB isn't at the cusp of upper-tier at very worst. He even has a decent enough tourney ranking to justify the paper argument.

Aso, glad to see M2K is on the "D3 is ridiculously overrated" bandwagon.

nice read up. i'll have to keep that in mind whenever im versing Diddy.

as for D3 being overrated, im not sure i agree with that

Mr.E said:

Even though it's mostly a waste to post it here

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Funny how you're telling a mod what/where to post and what/where not to post. Go be negative somewhere else. <_<

Good read, Chibo. I may be able to use this info.

Chibo, seeing that match-up as the ROB side, it's perfect. The point is really to take Diddy off-stage for gimps, but if u couldn't, u still have some ground options(as u said, Fsmash when u have the naner and it trips), and ur camper game is just amazing and can rack up good damage forcing Diddy to approach.

Or bigest problem is our size, which means that Diddy can make some ****ing combos. Howevr, i don't see it as a large advantage for us, but we have it for sure.


Our Glide Toss is longer(<3), but we need to pay attention so as not to trip with the naner in its way when going to Diddy's side. When he is pillaring us, Glide Toss OoS so as to camper some more is a good option.


Congratulations, Chibo =]

It Hopeless. Bananas go through all of our attacks and Diddy fair is broken.

95-5 matchup in diddys favor. Just use MK for this matchup

Teh Future said:

It Hopeless. Bananas go through all of our attacks and Diddy fair is broken.

95-5 matchup in diddys favor. Just use MK for this matchup

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Chibo, for your ledge issues with Diddy, I'm assuming you're behind, right? It's really easy to time invincibility on the ledge to avoid peanuts if you're in the lead. Something you can try for getting up when you're behind is simply shooting a gyro as you pass the ledge so it's on the ground with enough space for you to get up behind it. For Diddy to do anything to it, he'll have to lose his Banana which is enough time for us to get back up. If he doesn't do anything, just get up behind it since it'll stop Bananas anyway.

Sudai said:

Chibo, for your ledge issues with Diddy, I'm assuming you're behind, right? It's really easy to time invincibility on the ledge to avoid peanuts if you're in the lead. Something you can try for getting up when you're behind is simply shooting a gyro as you pass the ledge so it's on the ground with enough space for you to get up behind it. For Diddy to do anything to it, he'll have to lose his Banana which is enough time for us to get back up. If he doesn't do anything, just get up behind it since it'll stop Bananas anyway.

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Oh yes, I didn't elaborate on this.

You're right, it's only a problem when the Diddy is in the lead. I find it tough to get back on if he's got a banana in hand and the peanuts perfectly space. Shooting a gyro infront of you is a little tough, since normally when I jump up I get hit with a peanut. What I've been doing recently is ledge jumping and either air dodging or fairing to catch a peanut which gets me up there safe for a moment without getting hit by a peanut (since I have it) then immediately jump and upBing to mid stage to avoid a quick banana platform. I'd like to try to mix up my solution and yours by grabbing a peanut then shooting a gyro immediately.

If you are in the lead, it's very each to time the ledge invincibility, the only problem is that it racks up sooooo many ledge grabs. If there's a ledge grab rule at the tournament, depending on what it is, that could really hurt you in the long run.

Mike -

Yea, that's the only main problem for the matchup against us. Diddy still has a lot of options with his banana game on stage when we can't mess him up and leads to awesome combos. With this in mind I still see it as being in ROB's favor, but not by too much, like a 60-40 or something, which is still very nice to have on a top tier.

You can actually use the peanuts to place your Gyro more easily. If the gyro is less than half charged, a peanut will stop it's momentum in the air, but it won't disappear. This lets you jump up, shoot a gyro, and land all in one motion if you do it right. Anything more than half charge, the gyro eats the peanut and keeps going to hit diddy anyway.

I've tried catching a peanut a few times, but I tend to not like doing that because peanuts in hand are pretty ****ty. Despite not liking it though, it's a good mix-up that I have a bit of experience with. I haven't tried Up-Bing out of that, mostly because I don't use Up-B enough, but I'll have to try that one out. When I go with this, I tend to just Z-Drop the peanut and try to Z-Catch the incoming banana, or if they wait for the landing lag, Z-Grab the peanut before I land and instant glide toss+shield to get to the middle of the stage. The glidetoss option isn't stellar by any means, but as said, I don't use Up-B enough and it was just something to mix up my get-up instead of requiring a gyro every time.

I'm gonna try the Up-B thing out this weekend though, I like the way it sounds and it'll help to get me using my Up-B more. :o

fsmash, which is hard to land normally with it's short range. Also since fsmash is hard to land, it's almost always not staled at all, so if you hit with it at a nice percent, it should kill.

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Just addressing this statement here. Seriously?

F-smash is probably pretty hard to land against Diddy without having control of his Bananas yeah, but it's a pretty easy move to land in general if you ask me...

It has little ending lag, so it's pretty safe to throw out. The range sometimes makes me mad (doesn't hit as far as the animation), but it's not horrible, and while frame 12ish isn't as fast as I want it to be, it's not slow. It's the most disjointed of ROB's attacks too however, and its excellent priority means it beats quite a few things.

It's one of the safer anti-air options ROB has (obviously depends on spacing though sometimes), so you can really screw up approaches with it very effectively by just walking away a little bit and then F-smashing. The down-angled one hits much lower than other down-angled F-smashes, which gives you an advantage in hitting people on sloped terrain if you're above them.

Against Diddy also, F-smashing him out of his Side-B is also fun and effective.

Just throwing it out there because I don't find it hard to land against good players. It works better than F-tilt if you know your opponent is approaching from the air due to the hitbox starting from ROB's head. And it can be safer than F-air to throw out.

I often use F-smash for damage dealing due to its high damage and since I happen to space most F-smashes really well (it comes from maining Mario).

By golly, A2ZOMG was right about something for once. I wouldn't consider FSmash a primary attack against Diddy himself but in general... yeah. ROB's best friend against Kirby or Ness, to name a few. And Diddy throwing a banana peel might be the only thing he can beat ROB's range with (besides trading with FAir) but those can just be caught out of the air by your attacks!

jjvirus said:

Funny how you're telling a mod what/where to post and what/where not to post. Go be negative somewhere else. <_<

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I meant my post, you god ****ed moron. Don't lambaste me because you can't even read properly.

To avoid a flame war preemptively and avoid giving infractions, pretty sure Mr.E origionally meant that it was a waste for him to post his response in here, but jj took him to mean that Chibo posting in here was a waste.

If I was wrong, take it to PMs.

I find that diddy and rob are both very horizontally based, so once you get used to your opponent actually having options when you feel you are spacing well and in control, you stop making mistakes and can properly execute all that's been said so far

Ironically, CFalc has a pretty decent match-up vs ROB.

Sudai said:

Ironically, CFalc has a pretty decent match-up vs ROB.

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We can only say decent because it's Falcon, who doesn't have so many disadvantage in the ROB Match-up(and it's difficult for him not to have less disadvantage than usual), but he still gets ****ed =]

AZ, Chibo comment about ROB's option and how we can stop Diddy, that's why there wasn't so many things mentioned that Diddy can do.

Diddy Boards matchup summary:


Vs ROB: Do diddy stuff.

GG.

Seriously guys just go metaknight its hopeless impossible. Did you know that while we are recovering Diddys Bananas go through EVERY ONE OF OUR AERIALS?!?!?! wtf broken. Recoverying against diddy is impossible.

are you seriously ********?

my bad sudai.. the things people say just make me..... grrr...

AlphaZealot said:

Man, reading this makes it seems like Diddy has as many options as Captain Falcon.

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Lol, it kind of does have that feeling.

I didn't really tough too much on the matchup when Diddy has bananas, everyone should know how that goes. It sets up awesome combos for Diddy. Instead I offered ways ROB can mess up Diddy's banana game with techniques that other characters can't do (like throwing a gyro into the mix or using them to your advantage with ROB's awesome GT).

And about the fsmash comment, I believe if your landing that many fsmashes, your opponent simply isn't spacing that well. It definitely has it's uses, and I still land it plenty of times, but
1) Particularly in the Diddy matchup it's SOOOO hard to land unless you get it out of the banana glide toss trip. You're never going to get that close to Diddy with enough time and space to fsmash because of bananas.
2) Even if you do land it, it's not going to be staled anywhere near as much as your aerials, dsmash, throws, etc.

Hey Chibo, do you ever play Dabuz?

only on the aib ladder once, havnt gotten to be at the same rl tourney with him yet

1) Particularly in the Diddy matchup it's SOOOO hard to land unless you get it out of the banana glide toss trip. You're never going to get that close to Diddy with enough time and space to fsmash because of bananas.

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Noted previously. This is matchup specific.

I'm just disproving the statement that it's always hard to land because it had bad range. It's an amazing attack against opponents approaching from the air (which a lot of characters need to do against ROB due to his ground game in general) and when spaced well is almost always safer than F-air. If I recall, it's more disjointed than Marth's F-air for example.

I really don't know if it outranges Marth's fair, but it might trade hits. Overall, I can never find a fail safe option to use fsmash in a guaranteed situation except for trip. Generally when your opponent gets hit by it, it's because they messed up and approached wrong. The better players you play, the less and less you'll land the move. That doesn't mean it's without it's uses. Not ever opponent is perfect, and can be used sparingly for surprise anti-approach maneuver.

I think you guys **** Diddy's.

**** Diddy's what? His butthole?

Radori Nighthawk said:

I think you guys **** Diddy's.

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GwJumpman said:

**** Diddy's what? His butthole?

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Oh **** Nighthawk, get wrecked by improper apostrophe!

ChiboSempai said:

I really don't know if it outranges Marth's fair, but it might trade hits. Overall, I can never find a fail safe option to use fsmash in a guaranteed situation except for trip. Generally when your opponent gets hit by it, it's because they messed up and approached wrong. The better players you play, the less and less you'll land the move. That doesn't mean it's without it's uses. Not ever opponent is perfect, and can be used sparingly for surprise anti-approach maneuver.

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As far as Marth's FAir is concerned, you're better off just outranging it with FTilt but I digress. FSmash is the most disjointed ROB gets with melee attacks and it has transcendent priority. Combined with its high release point and angle-ability, it's a very effective anti-air move. It pretty much beats Ness single-handedly, since it beats his FAir and everyone knows he has nothing else on ROB. It's also pretty good against Kirby's common BAir approach, since you can beat his timing mixup just by continuing to charge and he doesn't have the drift speed to go overhead. I don't think it has much use besides as a KO move in this Diddy matchup, though.

Apparently I mistyped "its" and found out that an alternate word for BOOBIES is censored. Man, the censor on this forum is ridiculous.

Days later edit because I realized I repeated FAir one too many times, woo!

the censoring would be that bad because of the younger audience maybe circulating the forums. as well as not being held accountable for anything bad people may learn here, because if they do it's from people dodging the censoring which is infractable i'm lead to believe.

this is interesting i suppose

AlphaZealot said:

Man, reading this makes it seems like Diddy has as many options as Captain Falcon.

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^^^


Once Diddy learns to u-throw ROB, it becomes a completely different matchup. I just feel that ROB is too slow to really destroy this matchup. I think he can do well in this MU similar to how Snake can do against MK...meaning ROB wins if Diddy is not used to the MU simply because ROB can survive multiple encounters while Diddy has to be on top in most of them. Fortunately for Diddy, Diddy has the options in most of the encounters.

I think as time goes on, Diddy won't have much of an issue with ROB. Right now, yeah, but over time it'll be closer to an even matchup, possibly in Diddy's favor slightly.