Official Squirtle in Brawl+ Discussion

GuruKid · Oct 1, 2009

I'm surprised this wasn't made sooner. Guess either no one really uses him or people don't care to discuss him.

Hopefully this thread will change that. I'll make an actual guide in the very near future, but for now let's discuss this manic ****** monstrosity:

- Combos
- Moves/Strategy
- Matchups
- Overall Impression
- Anything else you'd like to comment on

Post up!

RPGsFTW · Oct 1, 2009

Personally, I still think Squirtle's Fair is a bit ridiculous. It hits, hard, and he can repeat it almost as if he was Melee Falcon L-Canceling knees the whole game. >.>

RyuReiatsu · Oct 1, 2009

RPGsFTW said:
Personally, I still think Squirtle's Fair is a bit ridiculous. It hits, hard, and he can repeat it almost as if he was Melee Falcon L-Canceling knees the whole game. >.>

I second this.

Thunderhorse+ · Oct 1, 2009

GuruKid said:
I'm surprised this wasn't made sooner. Guess either no one really uses him or people don't care to discuss him.

What is there to discuss?

aerial -> aerial. Rinse and repeat.

I guess you could get flashy and throw in some utilts, ftilts, jab combos, and a spice of throws though.

ph00tbag · Oct 1, 2009

How to play Squirtle:

Poke with bair
Air control away
Repeat a lot
????
Profit

Usually, the question marks involve something with forward air.

bob-e · Oct 1, 2009

RPGsFTW said:
Personally, I still think Squirtle's Fair is a bit ridiculous. It hits, hard, and he can repeat it almost as if he was Melee Falcon L-Canceling knees the whole game. >.>

Third this.

It pokes, comboes, gimps, and kills. It's like Marth's fair before it got the angle change on tipper.

Sulfur · Oct 1, 2009

Eh, this conversation, like usual about Squirtle, is not helpful.

Does anyone actually have strategy against his harder matchups? (I think ivy is pretty rough)

RyuReiatsu · Oct 1, 2009

Sulfur said:
Eh, this conversation, like usual about Squirtle, is not helpful.

Does anyone actually have strategy against his harder matchups? (I think ivy is pretty rough)

PKMN Switch anyone? Counter with Charizard =D.
Sorry, I had to do it...

Rudra · Oct 1, 2009

Approaching with Squirtle

-Air camp with Fair/Bair (Dair?), retreat or cross up opponent shield
-Hydrograb
-Shell Shift (>Jab Combo/Jab Cancel to Ftilt, Dtilt, or Grab)

Killing with Squirtle

-Fair (initial hit)
-Dair
-Dthrow (works really well with Hyrdograbs)
-USmash (Hydroplane)
-Watergun (Edgeguard)
-DSmash/FSmash (Failed Sweetspot?)

Impression

I dont play PT as much as I should (considering he's a secondary for me), but Squirtle reminds me a lot of MK. Generic Combos, good Spacing game with aerials and has trouble killing outright (aside from Dthrow/Fair near the edge of a stage). What I think makes him unique is his shell shifting game and ATs that makes his approaches a bit harder to read than other small characters.

Matchups

Imo, Marth/MK are still pretty difficult matchups. Even though Marth lost his Grab Release on Squirtle, its still a real chore getting close enough to combo him thanks to his disjointed blade. The same thing applies to MK. While Marth is easier to edgeguard, you're probably going to have to kill MK outright since he cant be edgeguarded as easily (if at all).

Well, thats all I got lol. I should play PT more, but I've just been having a blast with Wolf and Bowser since RC1 came about. =/

ph00tbag · Oct 1, 2009

I think, also, you can use a late fair -> jab on shield, and it should be fairly safe. You might be able to fit a grab in there if they keep shielding. I'd have to test it out.

JCaesar · Oct 2, 2009

Rudra said:
Killing with Squirtle

-Fair (initial hit)
-Dair
-Dthrow (works really well with Hyrdograbs)
-USmash (Hydroplane)
-Watergun (Edgeguard)
-DSmash/FSmash (Failed Sweetspot?)

Uthrow -> uair kills consistently lower than any of those on most characters. Though hopefully that will be fixed in the next version. A character as beast as Squirtle should not have guaranteed kills from a grab well under 100% on the majority of the cast.

Rudra · Oct 2, 2009

JCaesar said:
Uthrow -> uair kills consistently lower than any of those on most characters. Though hopefully that will be fixed in the next version. A character as beast as Squirtle should not have guaranteed kills from a grab well under 100% on the majority of the cast.

I see. I guess that means that it's KB/KBG's going to get more nerfs or his Uthrow will get more KBG? (I only say KBG since Uthrow>Uair is fine as a combo move, but shouldnt be a combo at killing %)

As for combos:

Utilt(Or Uthrow)>Uair>Uair (Fastfallers/Heavies)>Dair (rising)

Nair (weak second hit)>Fair (pretty risky, only good offstage against weak recoveries)

Uthrow>Fair/Bair (Probably only works on Fastfallers at higher %)

Fthrow (Dthrow?)>Hydroplane (Need to test more, but probably highly DI dependant)

Thats all I got from fighting someone with Squirtle the other day. I think some of those were a result of bad DI though. :laugh:

JCaesar · Oct 2, 2009

Most likely uthrow will get more KBG.

But it will be a long time before the next release. So until then, abuse abuse abuse!

Alphatron · Oct 2, 2009

If hitstun changes are implemented, the Kbg may not need a change at all. But yeah, squirtle is beast aside from his bad matchups with other top contenders.

Plum · Oct 2, 2009

JCaesar said:
Uthrow -> uair kills consistently lower than any of those on most characters. Though hopefully that will be fixed in the next version. A character as beast as Squirtle should not have guaranteed kills from a grab well under 100% on the majority of the cast.

I saw DDD live a Uthrow to Uair past 170. Suck it light weights! :V

So what can Squirtle really do to get inside walls? Seems like to me that he just barely doesn't have enough range to cope with high priority walls. It seems like that if I wanted to be extremely gay I could probably sit there and Bair all day as DDD to keep Squirtle at bay until he's at Utilt kill zone...

Hopefully your coming to BtL2 Guru (and hopefully school work permits me driving down ._.) because I want some offline matches to get a better idea.

Just not against Ivy... T_T

ph00tbag · Oct 3, 2009

Any move in this game has punishable frames. A character that can take advantage of punishable frames will do well. Squirtle's mobility is the primary thing that rockets him to the top in most peoples' minds, because he can be in and out and in range of many attacks in the span of a second, because he's so fast in the air and on the ground. The difficulty is in knowing when a move can be punished. Unfortunately, most of that can't really be taught without getting tedious. It's much more fun and educational to just figure out when you can weave in to attack by experience.

In a way, this makes Squirtle a character that's easy to pick up and waste people who don't know the game well, but he becomes one of the more knowledge intensive characters at higher levels of play.

GuruKid · Oct 3, 2009

Rudra said:
Approaching with Squirtle

-Air camp with Fair/Bair (Dair?), retreat or cross up opponent shield
-Hydrograb
-Shell Shift (>Jab Combo/Jab Cancel to Ftilt, Dtilt, or Grab)

Agreed with your first and third suggestions (shellshifting combined with Dash Dancing is amazing at creating an opening) but hydrograb is really too situational and risky to be used as a reliable approach.

Killing with Squirtle

-Fair (initial hit)
-Dair
-Dthrow (works really well with Hyrdograbs)
-USmash (Hydroplane)
-Watergun (Edgeguard)
-DSmash/FSmash (Failed Sweetspot?)

I agree with Jcaesar with uthrow -> uair being a more reliable killer than most of these moves. IMO his only other reliable kill move is fair; dthrow (unless done near the edge at really high percent) is pretty easy to survive once you learn how to DI it.

Watergun isn't a kill move; against good players, it's rare to outright score a gimp with it. It's best used as a general spacing/annoyance tool and setting up for an edgeguard with an aerial.

Regarding matchups, I can personally see anyone with good range and superb edgeguarding capabilities giving Squirtle trouble. Some that come into mind (really just based on my experience):

- Marth
- MK
- DDD
- DK
- Olimar

Against these characters, it's essentially a game of baiting the player and waiting for the opening, as Squirtle can't do much to break the walls these guys can set up.

JCaesar said:
Most likely uthrow will get more KBG.

But it will be a long time before the next release. So until then, abuse abuse abuse!

Uthrow to uair is very silly; hopefully that change fixes it.

I_Am_Plum said:
Hopefully your coming to BtL2 Guru (and hopefully school work permits me driving down ._.) because I want some offline matches to get a better idea.

Just not against Ivy... T_T

Ivy beats DDD.

Already pre-reg'd for the tournament and reserved those days off from work.

CloneHat · Oct 3, 2009

So I play these characters: Jigglypuff, Falcon, Charizard, and Dedede.

Generally I'm not too happy when I have to fight a Squirtle. I've found Dedede to be the best, although it's still a tough matchup. What do you think?

Plum · Oct 3, 2009

CloneHat said:
So I play these characters: Jigglypuff, Falcon, Charizard, and Dedede.

Generally I'm not too happy when I have to fight a Squirtle. I've found Dedede to be the best, although it's still a tough matchup. What do you think?

With DDD you can basically play an effective wall game against Squirtle. It seems like if Squirtle had a smidgen more range that he would give DDD a hell matchup, but you can definitely keep him out consistently through the matchup. Basically FF Bair (too short to really hit without fast falling) and AC Fair are your friends. Bair will be more punishable on finish, where as Fair has a lot of startup he can punish. I don't think he can directly beat out Dair from below, though he can easily do it from the side. Just do whatever you can to keep yourself safe, and him out. When he gets in there's a lot of pain following, but he has more trouble getting in than you have keeping him out. That's basically the best way to describe the matchup from my experience.

Squirtle is easy to gimp but his Up B offers pretty good protection, doesn't change its crap distance though. You don't have to keep him offstage too long before he hits the point where he can't make it back at all. You can either kill him with a gimp, or really early with Utilt. Squirtle on the other hand has to wait a good while to kill you, and you can definitely get to the 160-180% range if you start playing very cautiously when your % gets high. If he does force you to Up B though its basically stock over sadly. He can either toss out water gun just as you try to sweetspot or have something waiting for you as your super armor runs out. Basically try to avoid finishing Up B the same way twice. Go for the stage sometimes, don't always cancel it (hitting him with the stars can save your *** every once in a while), aim for different platforms if available or whatever you can to keep unpredictable with Up B.

ph00tbag · Oct 6, 2009

I like how Squirtle is a turtle

with a really good air camping game

_Phloat_ · Oct 6, 2009

So, after some heavy debating at a local tourny...

Squirtle is squirtle because...

Squirt + Turtle
or...

Squirrel + Turtle (Look at the tail)

Hopefully we can figure this out before the next RC.

CloneHat · Oct 6, 2009

_Phloat_ said:
So, after some heavy debating at a local tourny...

Squirtle is squirtle because...

Squirt + Turtle
or...

Squirrel + Turtle (Look at the tail)

Hopefully we can figure this out before the next RC.

lol I'd go with the squirrel.

A FLYING squirrel.

ph00tbag · Oct 6, 2009

_Phloat_ said:
So, after some heavy debating at a local tourny...

Squirtle is squirtle because...

Squirt + Turtle
or...

Squirrel + Turtle (Look at the tail)

Hopefully we can figure this out before the next RC.

This is nothing new. This debate is several years old, in fact.

Squirtle is actually squirtle because of this:

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