I'm going to emo about Lucario, you guys prove me wrong.

phi1ny3 said:

lol long time no see, shaddup troll :D
I'll try to defend lucario later, but I gotta go be arrogant and all "Silver" like.

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DarkDragoon said:

-Extreme Speed's lag is punishable by most characters who know what they're doing, which means that Lucario needs to hold control of the stage, which doesn't work out so well when faced with Aerial camping of MK, or superior stage control of Snake/Falco/DeDeDe.

yay for 4 characters out of 37. i can understand MK and Snake... but not falco... or D3.

-While Lucario CAN can back to the stage, that is really up to the opponent to misread or make a mistake...or trip when going to intercept. That kind of quality as our only defense for our recovery is a pretty bad quality. Granted we could "mind-game" on some stages with a wall-cling, but that option goes up in smoke if they ban the stage, which means we're only a ledge hog/ledge hopped aerial away from death.

there is 3 stages that i can immediately think of that we can wallcling... FD, frigate, and YI(brawl)... thats too many to ban

-A winning Lucario is a bad Lucario. Negative Aura will take away whatever advantage you have for being a stock ahead, making your control of the match harder, and unless you hold a significant skill advantage, then you can count yourself in for a long[er?] match.

it's only a small debuff... it's not game breaking. and if you ask me a longer game that you win is better then a short game that you lose.

-Our combos are completely escape-able. DI down and away on most of our chain-able aerials and mash the R button and you'll get out almost all the time, then just buffer your fastest aerial to respond with and wham!
The defensive[and prevalent] side of Brawl undoes a lot of our advantages as a character, and reduces us to our [although pretty good] camping game.

i like it when people DI down so they can eat an Dair

ITT: Long-time and old-school Lucario player got dumped by his girlfriend and wanted something to BAWWWW about, so he chose Lucario and hopefully will start some discussion.

-DD

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IceDX said:

I just Got Dumped 2 =( ............ I Agree with what u said actually Luc´s recoverie sucks

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phi1ny3 said:

Lucario rox my sox.
-His startup lag is definitely an issue, but is manageable. Harassing with BAS, bair/fair, dair stall, and b-reversal shenanigans help a lot in recovering. Ultimately, they all are technically "mindgames", but having enough variation means that an opponent cannot cover all of them. That and his second jump is pretty good. It's a matter of baiting the right responses to get back. I'll agree though, I hate ES startup lag.
-The end lag of Extreme Speed ISN'T THAT BAD. Granted it's certainly not helpful, but here's the reason why it's inaccurate to think that it is near insta-kill. If you've gotten yourself far enough onto the stage, most characters have only enough time to ledgehop fair or nair, trying for a smash by then, the lucario has enough time to get his shield up. Now here's the dilemma with this: Nearly all fairs are not very killable, especially if they are quick in nature, because they are naturally very stale. Put that on top of the fact that they have nearly only one trajectory to choose from: knocking him all the way to the other side of the stage. Lucario has plenty of DI influence and ability to reset himself to be high, which means he isn't going to be in the same bad position he was before, because the opponent now has only one reliable option besides reading, and that's juggling, which dair takes care of pretty well. It takes a smart lucario, and merely assessing what is the likely scenario for what's happening. Granted I don't like this mentality because it sounds so theory-ish and overly generalistic, but the more I've taken advantage of these scenarios, the less I've found myself complaining about his recovery. Combine it with the fact that lucario has some of the best attributes/tools for offstage recovering, and recovering with lucario isn't that bad, although his actual recovery is. Also on the subject of wallcling, most regions have YI/PS1 as neutral stages as well as FD, which are also wallclingable stages. This on top of the fact that most of these stages are naturally decent stages for lucario means that lucario isn't going to be outCP'd in most places, and I myself have gotten along fine in my region where FD, BF, and SV are the only neutrals. btw, lucario can also traverse the underside of both BF and SV to the other ledge with both double jump and ES, which is pretty easy to get down. Lucario's biggest strength isn't his recovery, it's his overall options.
-This debuff is terribly overestimated. Having about 150% (which I see is the average amount when playing against high-top tier chars and being ahead by a stock), you're still ridiculously buffed. You still kill in the under 70% range. Conversely, it does help when you are behind, giving you decent killability as early as 50-70%.
-Many take tools like lucarios for granted. Fair-> nair/dair still works reliably well, and most jab mixups are kind of outdated in the first place anyways. Having a lot of options, though, still prevents a lot of DI stuff to mess up. I'll agree DI has messed up lucario's low % game pretty badly, but that's what reading is for, and I have yet to see an actual punish via "buffered quick aerial", it's usually been in the form of a spotdodge to something. People still forget that when they are in that position, if the lucario is aware his "combos" aren't 100% legitimate, the opponent is still far more limited than lucario while lucario is jabbing, it just means you have to poke/bait like the rest of the cast, for crying out loud, THIS IS BARWL. Plenty of people's rapid gains were owned by SDI, teching, or plain stupid PS.
-That sux mang. You must recover!

In all seriousness, I've seen this stuff exploited, and it's only a mere time of lower level lucario's realizing they just need to adjust their game, it's essentially an "arm race" of sorts, kind of like how predator-prey relationships work, as seen by the Lotka-Volterra relationship:

It's natural player behavior to find out how to combat options, which are naturally followed by improvisation. I know this is overkill, but this is pretty much what happens in smash, except in the game the relationship declines in deviation.
Lots of info is kind of up for opinion and interpretation. Hence why most of my arguments might sound reasonable to some, but absolutely "garbage" to others. Just my initial rebuttal to these weaknesses. And no, I'm fully aware of lucario's weaknesses, but I feel that his metagame is more than what some give credit for.

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Col. Stauffenberg said:

Your arguments are invalid. I can shoot blue fire out my hands.

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phi1ny3 said:

^Or I could've done this. -_-

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Trela said:

I never think of the cons of Lucario or act "emo". Doesnt help me much lol.

Yesterday at HOBO 19, after my lost with Jumpman, I was like, "Dear god. I thought Lucario beats Wolf? Man this is embarrassing. I aint gonna let this stupid **** happen again in losers." (this was before I knew he was gonna get Top 4) After this, I FINNALLY figured out how to conrol my focus and without emotions (like at HOBO 18, I was sad with my loss in first round and it messed me up bigtime)! Because of this, I managed to get 9th while defeating Vex, Duffman, and almost Fogo. Like when I play, it feels like I put myself on auto-pilot and watch my hands play according to what happens on the screen. I act "wierd" pretty much. It helped me SOOOO much, and at HOBO 20 I'm aiming for Top 8!

So just tell yourself, "Lucario is awesome. He can do anything!" It's trueeee!

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PK Zucco said:

dedede is impossible for me, I give up on that

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DarkDragoon said:

-
-Our combos are completely escape-able. DI down and away on most of our chain-able aerials and mash the R button and you'll get out almost all the time, then just buffer your fastest aerial to respond with and wham!

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