TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Another rediscussion.
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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #15: Wolf
- Thread starter TLMSheikant
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Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
FIRST POST AGAIN.
I just started to experience this matchup.
In this matchup, you'll never see more bair....ever.
His bair is amazing and it's his main approach. But our bair is better when it comes to landing it. Like Fox and Falco it combos very well. (Hates Falco) >_>
Zair works really well on Wolf as it does one all spacies. He is harder to kill then the other two though due to his weight. His killing power is pretty good so watch out .
I say 55/45 us or 50/50. We rack up damage really fast on Wolf.
I just started to experience this matchup.
In this matchup, you'll never see more bair....ever.
His bair is amazing and it's his main approach. But our bair is better when it comes to landing it. Like Fox and Falco it combos very well. (Hates Falco) >_>
Zair works really well on Wolf as it does one all spacies. He is harder to kill then the other two though due to his weight. His killing power is pretty good so watch out .
I say 55/45 us or 50/50. We rack up damage really fast on Wolf.
A~Kid/ToonethLinkage
Wants His Own Custom Title
Even. Even. Even. Anyone disagrees I'm quitting the Toon Link boards for ever. I hate facing Wolf. We gimp him. He counter camps us. We both MIGHT have a bit trouble killing though he has an easier time killing. But we gimp his Up B SOOOOOO bad. And we juggle him pretty well. Watch out for Bairs. Don't try to camp too much. Use bombs the most (like in every other MU)
Even.
Even.
- Joined
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Disagreeing on a match up isn't a reason to quit the Toon Link Boards, but if you must, then so be it.
Anyways, YES, it is even.
Wolf has a reflector. The reflector is amazing. It bounces back objects at twice the speed it originally hit with. Fear it. I'm not sure if you can Zair through it or grab through it, but I still wouldn't recommend it. You can still toss projectiles at him though. You just have to full hop it, so that you aren't in front of the projectile when it bounces back.
The laser is annoying, but we can outcamp it if we throw from above. Full hops or platform camping would do good. It's his only projectile, and it only goes forward. The range on it isn't good either.
Wolf's forward smash is AMAZING! It has great strength, knockback, AND range. Don't get near him. His bair is also really good, or so I've heard. Last Wolf I faced was in June, so I wouldn't remember. He also has a Dair that spikes.
Wolf will pretty much always recover with his side B. His side B is really good. If I'm not mistaken, it spikes, so don't do any funny business with it. He can also fly through some corners with it, like the corners of Smashville and Battlefield. It's really good. He has great horizontal recovery from his regular jumps. I don't recommend trying to gimp him, unless you force him to use his UpB.
By the way, counterpick a stage that will force him to use his UpB. Rainbow Cruise is nice. Ban Smashville. I faced a Wolf in Smashville and got owned. It's a small stage, which means that you'll have many close encounters with him.
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
I LOL'd. 10 chars.
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
Someone forgot about his fair and Upsmash, whcih both have stupid hitboxes.
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2008
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Trying to outcamp Wolf is difficult though. Not impossible, but difficult. Wolf has powerful kill moves that can kill us lightweight Toon Links early. Granted, they are easy to avoid, but we can't get lucky every time.
Keep to the skies. Toon Link's aerial game > Wolf's.
Where are the Wolf mains?
Keep to the skies. Toon Link's aerial game > Wolf's.
Where are the Wolf mains?
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Toon Link's bombs>reflectors. Common sense. We outcamp him. Not easy to camp from either side though. :/
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
I'll tell my friend Asaph.
O____O We do? WITH WHAT? OMG What move am I overlooking?
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Zair gimps Wolf so horribly good .
.
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
Yo, Radori, wazzup my homeboy?
TL combo's the hell out of Wolf with bair and the such. He racks up damage fast. However, if a Wolf has decent DI, he will live til amazing percents. Ask Radori how long I can hold a stock and you'll understand. On the other hand, Wolf can take a stock offTL when TL is merely ~100.
I play Radori all the time, and this is the way it usually goes. I get tons of damage. I kill him at lower percents. Then he comes back and kills me.
I'd also like to point out that the match is even easier for Wolf when at high damage, because he's not getting strung around like a rag doll.
They're camping game is even. Playing Radori strictly in camp mode, I can get a laser or two on him, and him with an arrow or two on me, that is if both of us are avoiding each other as best we can.
This match-up is solid 50:50. Let the best man win.
That is offensive to Wolf mains everywhere. Fair has a massive hitbox, and it kills for us. We can also AC it. Also, upsmash is ridiculous, and punishes spotdodges. A good Wolf will screw you over with it.
TL combo's the hell out of Wolf with bair and the such. He racks up damage fast. However, if a Wolf has decent DI, he will live til amazing percents. Ask Radori how long I can hold a stock and you'll understand. On the other hand, Wolf can take a stock offTL when TL is merely ~100.
I play Radori all the time, and this is the way it usually goes. I get tons of damage. I kill him at lower percents. Then he comes back and kills me.
I'd also like to point out that the match is even easier for Wolf when at high damage, because he's not getting strung around like a rag doll.
They're camping game is even. Playing Radori strictly in camp mode, I can get a laser or two on him, and him with an arrow or two on me, that is if both of us are avoiding each other as best we can.
This match-up is solid 50:50. Let the best man win.
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
Touche F-Smash goes work on spacies.
Though I don't think you'll get a kill with Zair to upsmash on Wolf. Then zair knock down Wolf when he's in kill range.
I'll keep this in mind next time I fight Asaph or Seagull.Zair gimps Wolf so horribly good
Glad to see you Asaph. :D
I PERSONALLY think I can camp Wolf to hell since I enjoy throwin' stuff. Bombs ****, hard here. So manly setups with them.
K, so I think it's pretty much even.
Wolf shouldn't be using reflector against your projectiles unless you're really far away, you can zair **** him out of it and then go in for some **** combos. It might be worth it if Wolf uses the roll out of reflector once something hits it, but I'd rather try to powershield everything.
Fair is not a bad move, lol. Although I will admit that I don't think it's as useful against TL as it is in many other matchups. I think that Wolf and TL both kill at relatively close %s though, and yes, bair will most likely be stale, but refreshing moves with grab/pummel and jab is not unheard of. Both characters can gimp eachother fairly well. When approaching with zair (or anything), be weary of getting too close in case it's shielded, Wolf has quite the solid OoS/grab game and will refresh a few moves while doing 15+% with almost every grab, or 18% with usmash OoS.
I tend to run into the most trouble against TL's up attacks. Utilt is good at low %s, I think you can string it into a bunch of bairs Usmash kills well (or at least against me), and uair is just uair... good move overall, and I don't think Wolf can counter it from above with shine. Also (yeah this is an edit because I got ninja posted pretty badly since I'm slow), fsmash might kinda suck for Wolf >_>
Wolf shouldn't be using reflector against your projectiles unless you're really far away, you can zair **** him out of it and then go in for some **** combos. It might be worth it if Wolf uses the roll out of reflector once something hits it, but I'd rather try to powershield everything.
Fair is not a bad move, lol. Although I will admit that I don't think it's as useful against TL as it is in many other matchups. I think that Wolf and TL both kill at relatively close %s though, and yes, bair will most likely be stale, but refreshing moves with grab/pummel and jab is not unheard of. Both characters can gimp eachother fairly well. When approaching with zair (or anything), be weary of getting too close in case it's shielded, Wolf has quite the solid OoS/grab game and will refresh a few moves while doing 15+% with almost every grab, or 18% with usmash OoS.
I tend to run into the most trouble against TL's up attacks. Utilt is good at low %s, I think you can string it into a bunch of bairs
Usmash kills well (or at least against me), and uair is just uair... good move overall, and I don't think Wolf can counter it from above with shine. Also (yeah this is an edit because I got ninja posted pretty badly since I'm slow), fsmash might kinda suck for Wolf >_>
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
There's difference between camping from afar and bombing me close up and dairing me to the stage (for example). When you're throwing your hailstorms of projectiles at me from a distance, and I blaster, I feel it's even. Up close, your projectiles, bomb specifically, are pretty ****.
Radori, didn't you say that reflector really helped Seagull when he played you? How much of a step ahead does that give Wolf in that respect, do you think?
tekkie
Smash Master
it's like 90:10 because wolf can't recover lol
MJG
Smash Hero
I dont have too much match up exp but i know that a lot of wolfs like to use Bair a lot and I've seen the following set ups executed.
FF'd Shine>Down Smash
Jab>Down Smash
Down Smash near the ledge (recover low)
Our Forward Smash can be punished by Wolf's Forward Smash and we can counter his forward smash with Up Smash OoS
A retreating Bair works well in this match up IMO
@Radori: TL will kill wolf earlier..Uair works also since wolf has pretty much nothing to counter it. Bait and execute this move
FF'd Shine>Down Smash
Jab>Down Smash
Down Smash near the ledge (recover low)
Our Forward Smash can be punished by Wolf's Forward Smash and we can counter his forward smash with Up Smash OoS
A retreating Bair works well in this match up IMO
@Radori: TL will kill wolf earlier..Uair works also since wolf has pretty much nothing to counter it. Bait and execute this move
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
Well, he didn't use it against me to stop my projectiles more of a second shield kinda thing. It's a pretty nifty move if used at the right time. SH'd shines are always good.
@ Mig: Then I just haven't been able to so then. It's funny how you said you don't know the MU but you're stating facts? LOLwut? Sure up air works but it's still tough to land. FF'd shine> TL's Upair. Plus, Wolf fast falling speed makes it so that it's difficult to bait an airdodge to land the up air. He'll be on the ground sooner than you think.
MJG
Smash Hero
I said I don't have much match up Experience. Get it right. Im stating facts because I HAVE played wolfs before, just not as frequent as most other characters (MKs, Olimars, Snakes, etc. offline) Thanks for pointing that out (sarcasm)
I've never actually seen the FF'd shine > from a wolf when I am jumping. Just when I am grounded. So I cant say anything against that. I know that Wolf's like to use Bair, especially Kains wolf; oh but I wouldn't know since i don't know the match up AT ALL.
Sasukebowser, how can a troll like you become a mod? Fair a horrible move? If by "horrible" you mean "beats all of MKs aerials and kills in midair around 100%" then it's a horrible move, yes. Clearly, you have never played a good Wolf if you say that he can't KO Toon Link well. Dsmash predictable is BS because it's only one frame slower than MKs dsmash and hit harder ... and nobody would call MK dsmash predictable. FFNair -> dsmash is a true combo at higher % too and there's still fair, utilt, usmash and even fsmash that kill TL at reasonable %.
That match-up is very even btw and Wolf isn't dead either if he's offstage that's a common misconception. Few characters can reliably gimp a smart Wolf and TL isn't one of those characters. Oh, and Z-air isn't that good in this match-up =/
That match-up is very even btw and Wolf isn't dead either if he's offstage that's a common misconception. Few characters can reliably gimp a smart Wolf and TL isn't one of those characters. Oh, and Z-air isn't that good in this match-up =/
I freaking hate this matchup. I verse the best Wolf in Aus (Tedeth) like almost every week. I won't tell you how to beat Wolf because I don't know how XD. But this is pretty much what he does.
Full hop Bair. Full hop Double Bair (second Bair is auto canceled). Full hop auto canceled Bair. Full hop Double Bair to F-smash (****), Full Hop Bair Double Jump Bair. Ok so the point is, mind games with Bair ftw and he's pretty much un-touchable.
Laser spam is awesome cause the laser goes straight through everything, so you have to Full hop over it. When you full hop over it, guess what happens, one of the above Bairs to the face.
If you hit his shield, you'll eat an un-avoidable D-smash which is an insane kill move.
On the edge, Down throw = gimp.
As for gimping his recovery, tough luck. He almost never uses Up-B, why the hell would he with and awesome Side-B recovery that spikes/goes through stages. Also Wolf has really great aerial mobility, just thought I'd throw that out there.
I'll add more later.
Just, no. Wolf is so underrated it's not funny. Maybe I should ask him to come in here and school you.
Full hop Bair. Full hop Double Bair (second Bair is auto canceled). Full hop auto canceled Bair. Full hop Double Bair to F-smash (****), Full Hop Bair Double Jump Bair. Ok so the point is, mind games with Bair ftw and he's pretty much un-touchable.
Laser spam is awesome cause the laser goes straight through everything, so you have to Full hop over it. When you full hop over it, guess what happens, one of the above Bairs to the face.
If you hit his shield, you'll eat an un-avoidable D-smash which is an insane kill move.
On the edge, Down throw = gimp.
As for gimping his recovery, tough luck. He almost never uses Up-B, why the hell would he with and awesome Side-B recovery that spikes/goes through stages. Also Wolf has really great aerial mobility, just thought I'd throw that out there.
I'll add more later.
Just, no. Wolf is so underrated it's not funny. Maybe I should ask him to come in here and school you.
tedeth
Smash Master
lol. Foxy you're awesome.
Both characters are capable winning this match. I'd say in most cases the better player will win it. I know a fair bit about the matchup having played it countless times against Foxy and Gords who isn't bad either.
The only way a TL will get a decent wolf to upb is hitting him with an arrow or other projectile offstage that forces him to recover from beneath. Even then the Wolf probably made an unnecessary mistake. With good DI Wolf can DI all of TLs attacks high enough to sideb back to the edge or onstage easily.
In fact it's safer for Wolf to edgeguard TL offstage than visa-versa. I love chasing TL offstage and waiting for an opportunity to bair them.
lol @ wolf's fair being bad. lol indeed.
I don't like to judge matchups myself, I'd much rather listen to other people's opinions and come to a personal conclusion about it, but to say this is any worse for Wolf than even is silly.
Both characters are capable winning this match. I'd say in most cases the better player will win it. I know a fair bit about the matchup having played it countless times against Foxy and Gords who isn't bad either.
The only way a TL will get a decent wolf to upb is hitting him with an arrow or other projectile offstage that forces him to recover from beneath. Even then the Wolf probably made an unnecessary mistake. With good DI Wolf can DI all of TLs attacks high enough to sideb back to the edge or onstage easily.
In fact it's safer for Wolf to edgeguard TL offstage than visa-versa. I love chasing TL offstage and waiting for an opportunity to bair them.
lol @ wolf's fair being bad. lol indeed.
I don't like to judge matchups myself, I'd much rather listen to other people's opinions and come to a personal conclusion about it, but to say this is any worse for Wolf than even is silly.
copacetic
Smash Journeyman
iirc, i think we can stand next to the ledge and throw out the first hit of jab when wolf's recovering (maybe not on side-b), and like any character he'll fall right down, so all we have to do is grab the ledge. It won't work most of the time, but it's really fun on scrubs, and occasionally a pro will get nervous
2nLio
Smash Journeyman
60-40 in toon links favor. Wolf doesnt have such an easy time killing TL.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Wolf can kill TL with fair. I dont see Wolf killing with Dsmash much because of TL's "always in the air" style. I definetely dont think this is 60-40 TL, 55-45 TL at most.
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
Use your tether as soon as you get hit by the down throw to grab the ledge.
I do this to EVERYONE like all the time. =D>____________>
I lul'd HARD. Good stuff man.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
^ Yeah that works against MK's dthrow too (as long as u DI down which I forgot to do ONCE in one of my recent vids against zero lol).
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
Vid plz?
Try and make it a natural reflex when near the edge. It can save you from being put in bad situation....
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Yes, I do it normally Radori. I just wanted to mix it up and DI up >_> and then I kinda mixed up myself lol. I zair'd while DI'ing up. He saw that and nair'd me.
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
Oh noes. 10 char.
A~Kid/ToonethLinkage
Wants His Own Custom Title
Our Fsmash is actually reliable as a kill move in this matchup. lol
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lolwut? You serious?
Normally what I do is use Ftilt on the ledge. It makes me feel like a Marth, but not as broken. ^_^ I can only do that to Falco though.
Fsmash is Jesus. Getting hit by it is just plain bad. If you shield it, you should do a really fast grab. It works.
A~Kid/ToonethLinkage
Wants His Own Custom Title
Why so serious TWiNK?
On a serious note it is, he's heavy and fast falling so it would be a little harder to DI it than with most characters. Fsmash <3
On a serious note it is, he's heavy and fast falling so it would be a little harder to DI it than with most characters. Fsmash <3
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