Lucario vs. Ness (28) Export

Ness

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Aurasmash14 said:

Ness is pretty good in the air, enough to match us i believe. also, the tail of PK thunder can be annoying when recovering. Not to mention, The magnet... One misfired AS and he regains 16 %. On the other hand, Just get him off stage and He's toast, We outlast him, and can hit as hard as he can. just citing basic facts here, dont really know ness.

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Uffe said:

Well it's actually too early to determine a match up ratio, I think. As for Ness' recovery, I didn't bother with that because a lot of people think that when Ness is off the stage, he's not coming back, which isn't true. Where he is off the stage is what people don't think about. If he's above or at stage level, he's coming back. Chances are he'll still have a second jump when coming back. If he's below the stage, then things could get a little itchy.

He doesn't have the best of recoveries, but it's not as bad as people think it is, either. Anyway, I thought I'd just mention that now because it's not really that easy to gimp Ness. And speaking of recoveries, I guess it's bad that PKFl didn't work as he wanted it to. D; And yes, you can escape Ness' PKT juggling, but hey, if you're Ness, go for it anyway. At least you're throwing some damage on your opponent.

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Uffe said:

Ness' PKT can juggle, but it's pretty much for harassing and racking up as much damage possible. You can escape it, but Ness usually doesn't just go straight in for the hit. He follows first and then will try and tail whip into hitting with all of the PKT. Fair and nair I would think are annoying against you guys. I've had Lucario give me somewhat of a difficult time with his aerial attacks. You don't think that stuff is ever that close until you realize you're getting hit by it.

As for Ness' PSI Magnet, I thought I'd let you know that he can lag cancel out of it if struck with your Aura Sphere. In other words, he can jump, roll, dodge or attack out of it when the Aura Sphere hits his PSI Magnet. I've done this a few times whenever I had the chance. I won't even bother going into "gimping" because that's all I pretty much ever see whenever I'm in any match up.

When it comes to Ness' kill moves, he's got more than a back throw, which I don't rely on very much and a back aerial. If you ever find yourself in the situation of being off stage, he can nair you, spike you or even attempt a PKFl, depending on where you're at when off stage. If you're in the air, his uair can be used and/or he can use PKT2 which isn't as much of a risky move like it'd be on the ground. Overall, the last time I played a Lucario, which was really good in my opinion, it changed my thoughts on the match up to 50:50. That's what I truly think about this one.

EDIT: Lol. I said "kick moves". XD It was around 6:00 am when writing this out. XD

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AvariceX said:

Yeah, it hits on frame 5. And at the above mention of lack of kill moves outside of bthrow, that's pretty misinformed. Ness has a lot of kill moves. Roughly in order... fsmash tipper, Bthrow, Uair, Dair (sweetspot or sourspot on-stage), sweetspot bair, fsmash sourspot all kill at typical kill %'s (100-130%).... PK Flash and PKT2 kill stupidly low (about 30% and 50% respectively) but can be hard to land... dair spike off-stage kills at 0, dsmash, usmash, ftilt, and utilt kill at high %'s (130-150ish)

I should also mention that nair is an average kill-move but will almost always be at least a little stale.

I'm bad at matchup analysis but I've played several Lucario's in tourney and I've never thought this was anything other than a 50:50 matchup.

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Rockettrainer said:

Ness

What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Fair: This is probably one of Ness' main moves. It has a pretty big hitbox, lasts forever, causes a good amount of shieldstun, it's multihitting, it's good for walling and making approaching difficult...I could go on forever. You can't challenge Ness's fair with Lucario, so don't even bother.

-Dair: It's a spike move and one of the strongest in the game! Fortunately, it has a decent amount of startup time, so you should see it coming. If you're below a Ness when recovering, expect a possible spike attempt.

-Bair: It's like Zelda's lightning kicks, so treat it as such. It's a kill move, so be wary of it.

-Nair: Pretty decent OoS option for Ness so watch out for it.

-Bthrow:This is one of his major kill moves and a guaranteed kill move because most Ness players will not use it until they are certain it will kill. After a certain percent, no amount of DI will save you...so once you are at a high percentage, start playing more careful and don't get grabbed! Be especially careful about pivot/boost grab bthrows.

-PSI Magnet: It absorbs energy based projectiles, and Aura Sphere is energy based...so naturally, do not spam AS. It also creates a small windbox.

-PK Thunder: This is Ness' recovery move. If see a Ness recovering, you can try to throw an AS or attack the thunder projectile and cause a gimp. Be sure you hit only the thunder, and not Ness. And once Ness actually initiates PKT2, do not get in his way, or prepare to take massive damage and knockback. The only plus side is that jumping into his PKT2 will considerably shorten the amount of distance he recovers. But, if you throw an AS into him during his PKT2, it can shorten the distance just as well.

-PK Flash: You will rarely, if ever, see this move used. It can be used as a possible edgeguard or mindgame for combos or whatnot, but its limited range makes it practically useless. Still, if you see one coming towards you, move away from it. Do not try to challenge it with anything, because you will lose.

-Fsmash: Think of it like Ike's Fsmash in terms of startup time.

-MISC: Floaty and light. Somewhat small size, but a FAT head, lol.

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Rockettrainer said:

Ness
Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-PSI Magnet can limit AS's usefulness. Don't spam fully charged ones. If the Ness is offstage, throw some uncharged AS off as bait, and then fair them when they absorb them. They will only gain a few percents back and be even further offstage, which is a bad position.
-Since Lucario has no protection during his recovery, be mindful of possible spike attempts. Ness' dair is one of the most powerful spikes in the game, so don't be surprised if you die at low percents after getting spiked.

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GreyClover said:

hmm, I guess I'll do Ness now.

Lucario does have advantages in many parts of the match. You can outrange your oppenent fairly easy, Fsmashes and tilts make Ness hate being on the ground. When your aura buffed, Ness gets ***** as bad as Link's recovery. Lucario also can gimp Ness because of his bad movement in the air and his risky recovery. Try and use aura sphere alot to gimp because if it hits Ness's pk tunder, he's ****ed up. Don't get comfortable yet though because Ness is not afraid to gimp either. A bair near the blastzones are real scary espically if you're in mid/high damage, dair definitely hurts when it spikes you even at a ****ing 0%, and any else gimps pretty decent as well. Grabs are a big part of the match, Lucario's will grab to start the dreaded grab release chains. Ness will use it for killing. But don't worry too much about it, Ness's grab is pretty easy to aviod just do not underrestermate Ness's grab range, he actually has the best dash grab in the game. If you do get caught, a Bthrow can kill you at 130%. Now Bairs are a little bit different but it's a bit more often used, try your best and never get in back of Ness or do any fancy aerial stuff. Sometimes an Fsmash may kill but it generally lacks in speed and priority although watch out for a tippered fsmash that kills at 90%.

Ness's psi magnet acts like a reflecter except it doesn't reflect but absorbs. An aura sphere aborbed heals Ness real good not to mention that it stops BAS spamming either, I think Ness can aborb a force plam also if he's spaced close enough. A pk fire is real good even to a floaty character like Lucario. Watch out because Ness can spring up dthrows to Fairs for about 30% damage.

For a stage counterpick, I dunno but I'd have to chose Frigate Orpheon.

At first I thought it was really even but after reading everyone else's post and mines today but now I'm thinking maybe 6-4 Lucario.

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Kitamerby said:

Spam BAS against Ness. He'll try to break through at first and will get hit by a few. Once he starts absorbing, stop. Repeat when he puts down his magnet.

Lucario can CG Ness, like everyone else. Every time you spot an opening, abuse it for lots o damage.

SDI Up and away from the PK Fire, iirc. Don't DI the Bthrow if you're near the center of the stage, or if he's grabbing you on the outside of the stage and aiming inwards. Instead, just hold directly towards Ness so you stay going at the default 45 degree angle and can use your aerial momentum to slow your flight. DI up if he's throwing you when you're close to the edge and he's throwing you off, obviously.

Use Aura Sphere or Fsmash if he recovers wrong. If you wanna be funny, drop down if he's using PKT2 to recover and then tech the stage after it hits you. It'll shorten his trajectory and he'll die.

I personally prefer to pick somewhere long to CG, like FD, but I'm not sure where the best place to go is exactly. Ness sucks.

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Rockettrainer said:

Ness
Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Since Ness' recovery is limited in terms of versatility so expect to edgeguard Ness easily. He only has two options: aim for the edge, or aim for the stage (sometimes for a platform if there is one). If he aims for the stage, you can punish him. If he aims for the edge and you're hanging there with invincibility, he dies. Mindgame the Ness into recovering the wrong way and then take advantage.
-As long as you can avoid Ness' two main kill moves (bair and bthrow), you should outlast the Ness. Just don't get gimped or spiked!

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phi1ny3 said:

Well, I had the priviledge of playing Dog Latin long ago, but there were a lot of core basics I should've taken advantage of that I didn't in the MU:
-if he's juggling you with PKT stuff, just aerial it.
-fair outranges you, but that's all it really is: his best defenses against lucario are nair oos and retreating fair, but he has very little to keep him off.
-never fall for PKT2. I never did get hit by it, but I've seen people just get paralyzed by when the move comes out, if you see it actually arcing towards Ness' body (not twirling or any of that stuff), do what you need to do.
-I grabbed a lot in the MU, but I certainly should've used tilts to bat him away. Lucario can somewhat camp when Ness is pressed on the offense. Even though he has an absorber, it's slow, punishable at a closer zone, and Ness' defensive options are pretty bad, and would rather try to find an opening and wait than to actively keep you away.
-Never get comfortable ADing around him, especially after a throw. Dair will make short work out of you.
-gimping him is not too hard, I won't go into the whole "steal the thunder" thing, it's a misconception that it's common/easy and is obviously only going to happen if you're already gimping him in the process. It's decently easy to go for edgeguarding/gimping you have to be smart and limit his options though.
-Like I said, on the ground especially, not very good tools to keep you out. He's able to do it better in the air though.
Honestly bthrow is going to be plan A to really kill you. If you avoid all the tricks behind it and really make it hard to get in, he's gonna go for plan B which is usually bair, which won't kill until 140ish in many situations.
A very interesting match, be smart with AS, learn when and when not to get in, and imo it's a 60:40, possibly 55:45 lucario's favor, in terms of superior tools, outlasting, and options.

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Red Ryu said:

How many boards wanted to discuss us in the past week?

Wow.

edit: Match-ups, right.

Ness is my favorite of the phychic Duo from earthbound, I'm not a big fan of Lucas. Well first off, we beat him on the ground. Our ground game will beat his with range and priority. Not ot say he can't fight on the ground, but er just have better tools. Air game is a different story, Ness is much better in the air than on the ground. His Fair is really a annoying, none of our moves can beat it head on, maybe Bair but generally his Fair is a monster, even more so on the defense. His Dair will spike, his Uair and Bair will kill, and his Nair is a fast move. I think Ness has better movement in the air than Lucario.

Don't be reckless with Aura sphere, 16% is very yummy to Ness, he'll eat it with Psi magnet. Be very careful with it. He could also Bat the Aura sphere away for a mix up, but generally if he could have batted it, it means he could have absorbed it, that means we should have never shot the Aura Sphere. I just don't think it's all that great in this MU, at all.

Ness's PK thunder won't juggle you if you use an aerial to cancel it out. I learned recently that Lucario could do this and I've been playing again the juggle wrong. PK Fire can be shielded, but if it does hit you need to DI away before he can follow up. Ness has a few follow up to this if it hits you.

Since kill moves were said, Bthrow is nasty. It's annoying how it can kill, however, Ness has bad grab range. So while he does have bad grab range, his pivot grab is something to take note of. Just avoid it by spacing smart, it's easier for Lucario to space out the grab, but mess-ups will happen. In the Air Bair can kill, if may happen later like 130-150 range but it is a reliable killer. His Uair, just Dair. The bat, just jab or space Ftilt. Nair can be beat by Fair or Nair, but Ness's fair can just smack those away. Honestly I'm seeing Bair, Bthrow, and maybe later Nair to kill.

I think Lucario has a small, by small like 2%, more chanse to gimp Ness than vice versa. We can edge hog each other if we go for the ledge, but at he same time we can go high and land on the stage. Lucario can curve his ES to reduce landing lag, while Ness kind of has to deal with it.

Stage wise, dunno. Frigate to complement Lucario's Recovery more while hindering Ness's a bit. I'm clueless on what Ness will pick.

60-40 Lucario. Maybe 55-45.

Ike is later.

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Rockettrainer said:

Ness
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-Do not blindly approach Ness, or you will receive multiple fairs to the face. Even though his fair can be used to wall, it can be easy to get around. Roll behind, empty short hop, walking slowly and shielding...just be smart.
-Fsmash can outrange Ness for the most part.
-Tilt are useful in this matchup.
-I don't know if there are grab releases on Ness, but if there is one, feel free to use it I guess. You really shouldn't need it...

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Rockettrainer said:

Ness
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-I honestly don't have a clue here. Ideally, you want stages that have pits since Ness' main weakness is his recovery, so avoid Pirate Ship. I dunno, someone else can fill this part int...

Definitely in Lucario's favor. If you really want numbers...60:40 or something around there.

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PK Zucco said:

If I could just put in my word for Ness, I would personally bring Ness to Yoshi's island. As a fellow Ness user, I have to say I hate this stage. PK fire isnt nearly as useful here as other stages, The floor just eats it if you arent aiming it in the right spot. The Ghost platform if not careful could cost ness his stock when recovering, as it could either eat you PK thunder if you are in a bad spot or while low to the stage, it could push ness up which would leave Ness wide open. I also don't see that middle platform helping Ness at all, I'm pretty sure Lucario could just stand on top of it and dair any approaches he makes from under the platform. If your good at gimping then stages like rainbow or Frigate work too.

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