Lucario vs. Captain Falcon (29) Export

Matchup:

65:35

General info:

Player-3 said:

falcons bair is a great kill move, same killing power as ganons and it autocancells like our upair

our uair can also kill

utilt is amazing at killing and will beat out lucarios fair, but its laggy..

knee of course

falcon punch of course

smashes are meh

down air kills surprisingly well when you hit with falcons chest

lucarios down air is just aggravating

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What to avoid:

Koorikou said:

Falcons got it hard aganist lucario here. Lucario aerial mocer are good but we are faster so watch out for uair and bair. We have almost nothing to follow up after a grab except maybe side-b or up-b.
The normal fair to dair lucario string is good and we have only have utilt to try to counter it.
Lucario is pretty light though so we can kill at medium-low percents with a dsmash(not very recommended) or a bair or uair offstage.
Nice use of aura sphere can get to us though >.
For stages i think anything acn be good except for BF. FD can work ok i guess.

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teluoborg said:

I don't have that much of matchup experience against Lucario so I'll just give one advice :
the disjointed hitbox of Falcon's Utilt screws Lucario's recovery all day.
You'll have a hard time if you're aiming the ledge horizontally or even trying to get directly back on the stage.
You can of course recover from below but then you're a perfect target for a FF Fair/Uair or even a stage-spiking Bair.
I'm pretty sure Lucario has the tools to deal with this situation, especially on the stages where you can wall cling but be careful.


Oh and a Falcon who's approaching you with a RAR'd Bair is clearly it doing wrong and you'll **** him even without any matchup experience.

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How to win:

MythTrainerInfinity said:

Falcon is lighter than Ganon, but falls faster, so... that means you can juggle him pretty badly and kill him earlier. Camping is harder because he's so fast. The safest air attack he can use to approach is his BAir, even then it should be plenty obvious and not really safe for him. Even if Falcons perfect the knee you will unlikely get hit by its sweetspot if you space well. Falcon Kick has ok priority, so watch out for it and he'll be probably using it to punish your rolls.

The ol' Capt's priority sucks though and you have the Aura, he might just run into one of your attacks when he is attacking.

Falcon's Jab is surprisingly good, has decent priority, and the Gentleman (Jab to shoulder without the rapid part) can be done over and over if you don't DI away. Most good Falcons wont use the rapid jab unless you're at like the edge of a stage or something, its not that great...

His kill moves are either painfully obvious or laggy, so you should live to decently high %s.

Watch out for being juggled by UAirs, but if you space your FAir and DAirs properly it should not be a problem. Vs. Falcon should be 70:30 us give or take five on either side.

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phi1ny3 said:

He definitely has Transcendent priority, just not on his AS. I'll correct you later, but there's a lot of mistakes that need to be flattened out. :D

1. Recovering onstage =/= insured death, especially if the lucario is doing it right. Good second jump + no reliable edgeguarding methods for C. Falcon means if lucario is reading his movements he can get onstage without much scathing. If he messes up and is too close to the edge when he lands, you know what to do: ledgehop -> knee 'em.

2.Lucario fsmash is a pretty long ranged move, it outranges marth fsmash, which although isn't exactly the longest range, it gives you a good idea. Granted lucario fsmash is a little slow, but it's other traits make it amazing regardless. For example, a well timed fsmash when someone is on the ledge can cover/beat nearly all options, whether it be getup, attack, jump, or ledgehop. It also ***** AD/spotdodge, and is very safe if used correctly. Also, dsmash will hit an aerial character, but not nearly as well as fsmash.

3.Doesn't really matter how "floaty" they are, especially considering that by weight, samus and yoshi are deceptively heavy (iirc samus is like 8th heaviest or so), which means if anything we can string them for longer periods of time than other characters. Even Kirby can be stringed, but the hurtbox and lightweight means it'll quickly be ineffective because he reaches "uncomboable percents" much more quickly, and the smaller hurtbox ensures that it will be a little harder for things like fair -> nair to work, especially if he DIs. C. Falcon and Ganon, on the other hand, are really good for lucario to string up.

4.These will be decent tools provided if lucario isn't gaying him up. Lucario as relatively slow as he is to most of the cast will end up outliving him by circumstances involving safety. We're discussing how the highest level of lucario's metagame will do against the highest level of ganon's/CF's, and if he's playing this right, ganon and Falcon gets utterly destroyed. The only semi-decent options ganon has will usually be beaten by lucario, mainly because of reasons of safety. Most of the moves that might work for ganon's punish game in other MUs don't work very well against lucario, because many of his moves are ridiculously safe on block with combined hitbox wackiness and low cooldown, which means unless you have a super fast, long range jab or ftilt, or a good ooS response, this will be lucario's game.
imo ganon vs. lucario is 75:25 lucario's favor, and captain falcon vs. lucario is 65:35 lucario's favor

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Helpful tips:

lordhelmet said:

I don't think Lucario is that hard for CF, one of his decent match-ups.

I'd say 65-35 Lucario's favor.

Edit:

Jab and Uair are great against Lucario, jab also cancels your spam balls. Lucario wins out with overall better priority and disjointed hitboxes.

PS: It is fun to knee Lucarios that are in Up-B start-up lag.

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Stages:

Koorikou said:

For stages i think anything acn be good except for BF. FD can work ok i guess.

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I'll fill in and say stages where your camp and gimp game are good while your recovery options are still strong are great places, such as FD and Frigate. Even some other stages like Yoshi's Island can do pretty well, although your camp game may become limited.




Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.

Very lacking, we ought to better next time, even if it is a bottom tier MU -_-

Rockettrainer said:

Sadly, I don't enough good experience to provide any in-depth analysis, but both are pretty much in Lucario's favor...like anyone is going to argue otherwise, lol.

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I guess you spoke too soon, because someone is convinced it's even lol.

Jab is being slightly ovarrated in this matchup if you ask me. :l

60-40 lucario's favor.
Lucario's keep away game/rolls are pretty aggrivating.

+ F-air is pretty much what takes our lunch money.
Other than that we're good.

Also U-tilt isn't even really laggy.

PS: I wish I had a comp rather than gay wiinet to talk more

Yoshi's I wouldn't take him to because if he can get you on the platform he can bob in and out to juggle you with his UAir, but of course he has to watch out for our DAir.

Falcon's Utilt does take a little time to get used to and if you're inexperienced to its weird hitboxes and when it hits you'll be in for some nasty surprises.

If the Lucario isn't keen on the match-up he's probably going to have a hard time.

Also if you do something stupid and or laggy in the air he might punish your landing lag with a Falcon Kick.

Edit: Well there's not too much outstanding when talking about Falcon... His Jab ain't bad and well you want to do the least stupid things possible, right?

lol wiinet is fail.
I think I'll add some stuff that comes from what people say in this export, merely becuase it was so withered up in the current discussion.
Can someone get Salem to discuss his theory?

*Bans BF, Selects Falcon and says we both go to FD* >_>

Okay, let's see... what my Falcon see's lol, I actually have a huge post for this but we aren't discussing this at the Falcon boards.

So right...

I was the one who said this match-up is 50-50.
How?

Let's see if I can remember.
Falcon is not exactly forced to approach but that just makes the match do absolutely nothing, which leads to approaching. lol

Falcon should be PSing or just short hopping(?) the aura spheres while advancing forward to try and N-air Lucario with the TIP of his foot to not get grabbed, Lucario's grab is also pretty short so not getting grabbed is not much of a problem.

The problem is Falcon has to watch a certain pattern, percentage and he has to use less of his very punishable specials, like Up-tilt, B-air, D-air and N-air... and also don't forget U-air. lol

But anyway... from what I can remember Falcon can possibly B-air, U-air or U-tilt most of Lucario's aerials, all while both would "possibly" be trading hits.

Falcon rolling in this fight is dumb, he might as well use more spot dodge cause Lucario could just roll right behind him and grab due to having a faster roll. >_>

Falcon should be watching the damage in the end to try and expect a roll so he can use D-smash to kill.

And Falcon should always be edge hog spamming Lucario if Lucario has to recover cause of his Up-B landing lag, if timed I think Falcon can use the Falcon Punch on him, obviously thats not guranteed though. lol

And U-air should be used to gimp Lucario, F-air is freakin slow and U-air has enough knockback to seal the deal if hit with the weak part of it. (The back...)
Unless Falcon is coming from on high to knee, but that means he could have just used D-air in the first place.
Lucario could also just fight back while offstage, Up-B the side of FD and recover. ROFL
Theres so many stupid things they can do to eachother.

I'm also forgetting a few things... one of the most important things for Falcon in this match-up.
I think I have to go play more Lucario's to remember, it's something that helps...
But anyway...

*Waits for a posts that says this is wrong and wrong and this is just plain stupid*

Rebuttal coming later.

Salem said:

*Bans BF, Selects Falcon and says we both go to FD* >_>

Okay, let's see... what my Falcon see's lol, I actually have a huge post for this but we aren't discussing this at the Falcon boards.

So right...

I was the one who said this match-up is 50-50.
How?

Let's see if I can remember.
Falcon is not exactly forced to approach but that just makes the match do absolutely nothing, which leads to approaching. lol

Falcon should be PSing or just short hopping(?) the aura spheres while advancing forward to try and N-air Lucario with the TIP of his foot to not get grabbed, Lucario's grab is also pretty short so not getting grabbed is not much of a problem.

The problem is Falcon has to watch a certain pattern, percentage and he has to use less of his very punishable specials, like Up-tilt, B-air, D-air and N-air... and also don't forget U-air. lol

But anyway... from what I can remember Falcon can possibly B-air, U-air or U-tilt most of Lucario's aerials, all while both would "possibly" be trading hits.

Falcon rolling in this fight is dumb, he might as well use more spot dodge cause Lucario could just roll right behind him and grab due to having a faster roll. >_>

Falcon should be watching the damage in the end to try and expect a roll so he can use D-smash to kill.

And Falcon should always be edge hog spamming Lucario if Lucario has to recover cause of his Up-B landing lag, if timed I think Falcon can use the Falcon Punch on him, obviously thats not guranteed though. lol

And U-air should be used to gimp Lucario, F-air is freakin slow and U-air has enough knockback to seal the deal if hit with the weak part of it. (The back...)
Unless Falcon is coming from on high to knee, but that means he could have just used D-air in the first place.
Lucario could also just fight back while offstage, Up-B the side of FD and recover. ROFL
Theres so many stupid things they can do to eachother.

I'm also forgetting a few things... one of the most important things for Falcon in this match-up.
I think I have to go play more Lucario's to remember, it's something that helps...
But anyway...

*Waits for a posts that says this is wrong and wrong and this is just plain stupid*

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1. Lucario using AS has changed a lot since the days of mashing B. Lucario's know that their camp game is stupidly weak, so most of the time they'll use it in conjunction with their aerials/tilts to throw out more dangerous zones, since the projectile is just barely slow enough to be used in conjunction with lucario's disjoints. Every good player should be able to PS projectiles without any added pressure applied, that's what we assume in a MU, and the point of BAS isn't for true camping, but to force approaches, add pressure with existing moves, and force punishable reactions that he has enough range to punish.

2. Nair is not going to cut it, especially with lucario's ftilt (this thing punishes all sorts of stuff), getting grabbed is only what happens from badly mispaced moves. I'm not actually sure whether pivot grab would be effective, although I think lucario might be able to use that as well. I think lucario aerials will also monopolize lots of air play as a whole, usually fair/SH nair, if not, bair. Lucario gets more advantage from some of his attempts though.

3. This applies to every character in the game, problem is that lucario has low cooldown and good range, very tough to get in esp. at higher percents when his attacks increase in shieldstun. I can see uair and bair being good, but those are avoidable if lucario is spacing correctly. The others can do punishing to a lesser extent, as lucario's zoning game is superior.

4. Rolling is only as good as the player who knows when to use it. natural stats help, but in the end it's decided by how well you read him, although with lucario's walling I'm sure it isn't recommended to use frequently.

5. Rolling? Lol, this is a joke, rollcario is the sign of a lucario who's buckled under pressure, from being racked that much in damage, there's not much point at those percents since most of the time that's the time he should be spacing his decently safe kill moves. Roll is not a unique tool, and it shares its strengths and weaknesses with the rest of the other rolls. Any good player can see that.

6. No, it's definitely not possible to falcon punch Lucario unless he's high up falling in "helpless mode" because he was a scrub, and even then he has enough maneuverability to get out of the way. The misconception that lucario is punishable by any attack when he recovers onstage is a very fallible misconception, and I've shown time and time again that unless the opponent has read successfully and actually has good long ranged killing aerials, a high level lucario has enough time to shield/get away.

7. Lucario has much better tools for gaying up Captain falcon's recovery than the other way around. uair I'm assuming has the same amount of frames to get to lucario's, but lucario's aerials generally outrange C. Falcon's, and are not "slow". Fair has a nice hitbox from underneath, dair stall out maneuvers all but the best of edgeguard games (even MK will have some difficulty with a good lucario), and BAS can stage spike, most of the time if the lucario is recovering properly, he won't need to use ES at all.

8. Lucario has an amazing amount of distance for his recovery, enough to traverse the undersides of both BF and SV if he still has his second jump. Another thing is that if lucario is able to recover high, C. Falcon WILL NOT get him at high levels of play, like ever. Knee and uair are okay, but they don't cut it vs. lucario for edgeguarding, MK and marth have issues catching a lucario, C Falcon is only going to do worst.

More later possibly, I wish I could go into detail, but I'm going to be gone again.

Salem said:

Falcon should be PSing or just short hopping(?) the aura spheres while advancing forward to try and N-air Lucario with the TIP of his foot to not get grabbed, Lucario's grab is also pretty short so not getting grabbed is not much of a problem.

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uhh couldn't lucario just brick wall with fair and bair? I don't think nair outranges any of lucario's aerials (except maybe dair and uair from the side?). Falcon has other aerials, but I'm not sure if they're very good for approaching. What about lucario's angled ftilt? Does falcon's nair outrange it?

Salem said:

*Bans BF, Selects Falcon and says we both go to FD* >_>

Okay, let's see... what my Falcon see's lol, I actually have a huge post for this but we aren't discussing this at the Falcon boards.

So right...

I was the one who said this match-up is 50-50.
How?

Let's see if I can remember.
Falcon is not exactly forced to approach but that just makes the match do absolutely nothing, which leads to approaching. lol

Falcon should be PSing or just short hopping(?) the aura spheres while advancing forward to try and N-air Lucario with the TIP of his foot to not get grabbed, Lucario's grab is also pretty short so not getting grabbed is not much of a problem.

The problem is Falcon has to watch a certain pattern, percentage and he has to use less of his very punishable specials, like Up-tilt, B-air, D-air and N-air... and also don't forget U-air. lol

But anyway... from what I can remember Falcon can possibly B-air, U-air or U-tilt most of Lucario's aerials, all while both would "possibly" be trading hits.

Falcon rolling in this fight is dumb, he might as well use more spot dodge cause Lucario could just roll right behind him and grab due to having a faster roll. >_>

Falcon should be watching the damage in the end to try and expect a roll so he can use D-smash to kill.

And Falcon should always be edge hog spamming Lucario if Lucario has to recover cause of his Up-B landing lag, if timed I think Falcon can use the Falcon Punch on him, obviously thats not guranteed though. lol

And U-air should be used to gimp Lucario, F-air is freakin slow and U-air has enough knockback to seal the deal if hit with the weak part of it. (The back...)
Unless Falcon is coming from on high to knee, but that means he could have just used D-air in the first place.
Lucario could also just fight back while offstage, Up-B the side of FD and recover. ROFL
Theres so many stupid things they can do to eachother.

I'm also forgetting a few things... one of the most important things for Falcon in this match-up.
I think I have to go play more Lucario's to remember, it's something that helps...
But anyway...

*Waits for a posts that says this is wrong and wrong and this is just plain stupid*

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This is funny. I hope you do know that Lucario doesn't even have to play passive in this MU to beat him. You can actually rush falcon down and you will still win the MU. Actually, I prefer if Lucario rushes him down because it makes it easier.

You Uair from the front of us loses. Your Uair from the Top loses. And unless you are expecting us to be backwards going to your falcon, then getting him killed isn't that simple.
Our recovery also can be ended without lag, so that is flawed also. Since we want to talk about the MU again. Ill go at it.

Captian Falcon:

The man of Melee making a return to brawl for another chance to take the glory. His amazing speed still exists, but unfortunately falls short in comparison to majority of the characters in the game.

Falcons approach game is a bit iffy in this Matchup. His speed enables him to move around a lot faster then other characters for map position, but his move-set and the start up time on them makes it so that he cannot approach safely. All of Falcons ground moves are like ours, but a bit faster. What makes him really lose this matchup, is that he lacks a proper way to get into lucario, as our aerials when used at a constant pressure utility really can shut him down.

Don't under estimate Falcons kill power, as he can actually kill you in a number of ways because his moves have decent kill power.

As far as recovering goes, Falcon can hit you with something hard if you chose to recover improper. When you are edge guarding him, let him take the edge, as from that point you can actually abuse his options from there. his lackluster ability to be properly equipped for a proper forward-facing move makes it so much sweeter in our advantage when it comes to the edge-guard.

Taking advantage of Falcon is easy. You have quite few options to handle him. You can make him approach with AS, or you can even rush him down. The choice is clearly up to you as a player.

Note: Keep in mind that all of Falcons moves have bad priority.

Actually, All of Falcon's move don't have bad priority, it's the speed of the moves that is the problem.
Which, means his moves are punishable to some extent.

But right again.

If Lucario attempts to rush him down he risks getting punished even more with Falcon kicks and U-tilt.

Or worse, B-air.

Falcon can also use OOS F-tilt if Lucario knocks him back out of grab/jab range with almost any attack, it's not as slow as you expect it.

Lucario's walls don't work on Falcon unless the Falcon is dumb... like most Falcons (No offense guys. >_>), Falcon can DJ and punish with U-air or instead use Falcon kick as he attempts to land.

Aura Sphere is nothing to worry about, Falcon Kick can usually stop it from the beginning of Falcon Kick untill Lucario's at high percentages.

I so wanna use my long post now. lol

Falcon also has a very interesting DashDancePivot, allowing him to fully utilize his speed to bait and punish properly while being able to punish most moves with a grab or aerial.

I honestly don't think the matchup is even, but I don't think it's as bad as 70:30, either. I think it should be toned down a bit to 65:35, a borderline hard counter rather than a definitive one.

Kitamerby said:

Falcon also has a very interesting DashDancePivot, allowing him to fully utilize his speed to bait and punish properly while being able to punish most moves with a grab or aerial.

I honestly don't think the matchup is even, but I don't think it's as bad as 70:30, either. I think it should be toned down a bit to 65:35, a borderline hard counter rather than a definitive one.

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Oh yeah, thats one of the things I was trying to remember.

Dash Dance. >_>
It's something Falcon is gonna need alot in this match-up, meaning Falcon is gonna have to move alot.

Where's your CF frame data for aerials!?! I can't find 'em!

phi1ny3 said:

Where's your CF frame data for aerials!?! I can't find 'em!

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Probably some where deep within the Falcon boards.

Though I think they're unfinished, I could go in and see if they're there still.

BRB. >_>

[EDIT]

All of this is incomplete.

I wish somebody would complete Falcon's frame data...

Jab: 3
Forward Tilt: 9
Up Tilt: 17
Down Tilt: 11
Dash Attack: 8
Up Smash: 22
Down Smash: 19
Forward Smash: 18
Forward B: 21 (In the Air 23)
Neutral B: 53
Down B: 15 (air 16)
Up B: 14
Forward Air: 14
Back Air: 10
Down Air: 16
Up Air: 6
Neutral Air: 7



Click here please.

My rebuttal just got a boost, lucario's aerials are far from "slow" compared to Falcon's.

phi1ny3 said:

My rebuttal just got a boost, lucario's aerials are far from "slow" compared to Falcon's.

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Take note it's not finished so somethings might not be correct.

SuSa should finish that freakin frame data. >_>
It would seriously help right now.

I could help, I have PSA ^_^

Salem said:

*Bans BF, Selects Falcon and says we both go to FD* >_>

Okay, let's see... what my Falcon see's lol, I actually have a huge post for this but we aren't discussing this at the Falcon boards.

So right...

I was the one who said this match-up is 50-50.
How?

Let's see if I can remember.
Falcon is not exactly forced to approach but that just makes the match do absolutely nothing, which leads to approaching. lol

Falcon should be PSing or just short hopping(?) the aura spheres while advancing forward to try and N-air Lucario with the TIP of his foot to not get grabbed, Lucario's grab is also pretty short so not getting grabbed is not much of a problem.

The problem is Falcon has to watch a certain pattern, percentage and he has to use less of his very punishable specials, like Up-tilt, B-air, D-air and N-air... and also don't forget U-air. lol

But anyway... from what I can remember Falcon can possibly B-air, U-air or U-tilt most of Lucario's aerials, all while both would "possibly" be trading hits.

Falcon rolling in this fight is dumb, he might as well use more spot dodge cause Lucario could just roll right behind him and grab due to having a faster roll. >_>

Falcon should be watching the damage in the end to try and expect a roll so he can use D-smash to kill.

And Falcon should always be edge hog spamming Lucario if Lucario has to recover cause of his Up-B landing lag, if timed I think Falcon can use the Falcon Punch on him, obviously thats not guranteed though. lol

And U-air should be used to gimp Lucario, F-air is freakin slow and U-air has enough knockback to seal the deal if hit with the weak part of it. (The back...)
Unless Falcon is coming from on high to knee, but that means he could have just used D-air in the first place.
Lucario could also just fight back while offstage, Up-B the side of FD and recover. ROFL
Theres so many stupid things they can do to eachother.

I'm also forgetting a few things... one of the most important things for Falcon in this match-up.
I think I have to go play more Lucario's to remember, it's something that helps...
But anyway...

*Waits for a posts that says this is wrong and wrong and this is just plain stupid*

Click to expand...

This is wrong and wrong and this is just plain stupid.

phi1ny3 said:

I could help, I have PSA ^_^

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Yes, we'll need that.

A character without finished frame data is not even a character at all. >_>

actually falcon kick and utilt have pretty **** priority but their slow and laggy

even though utilt is the best move in the game

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:

I'm not convinced.

Lucario vs falcon: 60-40, Lucario's favor.

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You know, you do live near me most likely, lol. Try coming down to bergen country, and then we will see how the MU really is.