Wario's Week 15 Matchup: Toon Link!

Padô · Oct 12, 2009

Sorry about the delay.

The beach was superb. But back to work!

This week is the last week of new discussions and we are making the rediscussion of the following character due to HUGE DEMAND: MK, Snake and Falco.

This week's discussion:

Toon Link!

Good discussion.

It'd be very aprecciated if all of you guys argue instead of just posting the numbers.
Not saying the numbers aren't important.

Discussion ending Monday/Sunday depending on my mood :D

Voting over.

Veredict:

55-45 Wario's Favor.

Masky · Oct 12, 2009

..........

Dynomite · Oct 12, 2009

Masky said:
I'm probably the most knowledgeable person in this lol it's in Wario's favor by a little bit. Toon Link's best stage against Wario is probably Final Destination

what do to:

DONT get all up in his face
DONT fart on him to kill him at low health
DONT hop around avoiding his spammy projectiles
DONT dair
DONT punish his zair but perfect shielding > fair
DONT Butt taunt him!

^^ distraction for dyno to take your rupees and RUN!!!

PhantomX · Oct 12, 2009

Those are coins.

BMX · Oct 12, 2009

Phail. I've played Lobos.

Perfect shield everything.
Don't fall for Zair. Main thing they do is short hop airdodge, and Zair.
Go to a small stage. TL can't handle Wario confrontation as well as Wario.
^^ Watch out for Nair. That **** comes out fast.

Basically read his patterns and SHs. He is light, so killing him won't be a problem. He has problems killing Wario, so take that in mind. Mainly watch out for Upsmash, that's what he wants.

Fart and win.

Masky · Oct 12, 2009

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BMX · Oct 12, 2009

He confused me when he said don't butt taunt him.

Scared??

Dynomite · Oct 13, 2009

Masky said:
dyno your post confuses me so much lol

PS dyno I beat Lio in tournament last weekend (even though we play all the time and team together and are bffs)

i john about wifi being too awesome for me.

bring your orange state up here and taste our peaches this Saturday >_<

Masky · Oct 13, 2009

..........

Dynomite · Oct 13, 2009

Masky said:
We have our own FL tournament this saturday (Gigabits)

bah...

>

Masky · Oct 13, 2009

..........

Zip. · Oct 13, 2009

it really does o-0

Dynomite · Oct 13, 2009

Masky said:
that orange looks delicious

well, this ruined my whole argument.

well played sir!

GG

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Oct 13, 2009

this thread is just a wealth of information.

Padô · Oct 13, 2009

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
this thread is just a wealth of information.

I'd say a FOUNTAIN of information.

Humpy Thrashabout · Oct 13, 2009

Toonlinks like to kill with upsmash, but their uptilt kills at like 8% percent more damage or something silly. Watch out if they start spamming upsmash. It'll look like you can get in and punish between them, but as soon as you get close they'll uptilt and ruin your timing.

Everytime they land expect a quickdraw arrow. Always.

He'll try and stale his back air and carry you around. I'm bad, so I always feel like I can SDI towards and under him and get off a clap. It never works, but it's my natural inclination. I think the proper way to do it is down and away.

SHAD Zair Nair is stupid effective. I think he is vulnerable for all of 12 frames. It's only punishable by perfect sheilds.

If they get you above them and they get upair happy, FFAD through it and you can sometimes get a clap off before the move ends.

They have that OHKO move. I've never actually had it successfully performed on me, but it exists. I guess be careful? For those of you clueless, the first hit on TL's dsmash has a constant knockback, but it sends you really far. They SH drop an invincibomb over your head and land and down smash. The first swing hits you, but the second is canceled by the bomb. Wario can get back, but launches you quite a ways.

Watchout when recovering low. TL can bounce his dair off your bike so if you bike below him he can attempt a safe dair.

If you ever see a TL use the first swing of forward smash you can waft between the swings or before he can do any other move.

This is my best known match-up. I play a toon link a few times a week for an hour or so. Hope this is helpful.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Oct 13, 2009

Humpy Thrashabout said:
Toonlinks like to kill with upsmash, but their uptilt kills at like 8% percent more damage or something silly. Watch out if they start spamming upsmash. It'll look like you can get in and punish between them, but as soon as you get close they'll uptilt and ruin your timing.

Everytime they land expect a quickdraw arrow. Always.

He'll try and stale his back air and carry you around. I'm bad, so I always feel like I can SDI towards and under him and get off a clap. It never works, but it's my natural inclination. I think the proper way to do it is down and away.

SHAD Zair Nair is stupid effective. I think he is vulnerable for all of 12 frames. It's only punishable by perfect sheilds.

If they get you above them and they get upair happy, FFAD through it and you can sometimes get a clap off before the move ends.

They have that OHKO move. I've never actually had it successfully performed on me, but it exists. I guess be careful? For those of you clueless, the first hit on TL's dsmash has a constant knockback, but it sends you really far. They SH drop an invincibomb over your head and land and down smash. The first swing hits you, but the second is canceled by the bomb. Wario can get back, but launches you quite a ways.

Watchout when recovering low. TL can bounce his dair off your bike so if you bike below him he can attempt a safe dair.

If you ever see a TL use the first swing of forward smash you can waft between the swings or before he can do any other move.

This is my best known match-up. I play a toon link a few times a week for an hour or so. Hope this is helpful.

I never had trouble with TL's Zair I have more trouble when he spaces with bair. Also I think if you bike away from the stage after they do that dsmash non sense you will be fine.

PhantomX · Oct 13, 2009

Yeah, Zair would be more a nuisance or a "kill setup" than anything else. Most of their damage will come from bairing your approaches and item throwing. Something neat to do though is to force them to the edge of the stage and if they bair/nair your shield trying to cross you up, it's a free waft OoS.

toobusytocare · Oct 14, 2009

Basically I just wait for a break in his attacks then get in his face and dont allow him to set up

also fart is incredible for this matchup.

ALSO i haven't had much luck landing uair in this matchup :\

55:45 Wario

EDIT:

Humpy Thrashabout said:
If you ever see a TL use the first swing of forward smash you can waft between the swings or before he can do any other move.

Whoah, thanks lol i had no idea

Gichan · Oct 16, 2009

Humpy's post was incredibly insightful, lolz. Yeah, this is reeallyy one of those matchups that you honestly have to play patiently. Conditioning is soooo important in this matchup. DJFF dairs should be mixed in an inconsistent basis with DDFF airdodges, this will lead to being unpredicatable and landing hits. Because usmash and utilt are constantly spammed against Warios so we gotta be careful. SDI bairs, don't attempt airdogde no matter how tempting, and don't retaliate, you MUST be patient in this matchup. And yeah, fart is indeed incredible, ou can nail it before they hit their fair.

Masky · Oct 16, 2009

..........

Padô · Oct 19, 2009

Requesting numbers.

I'm finishing the votes today at night.

Humpy Thrashabout · Oct 19, 2009

I think 50:50 or 55:45 in Wario's favor. It's a battle of patience, but both characters have an excellent move-set. Neither of them have anything that outright beats the other.

Also, I don't expect anyone to agree with me on 50:50, but I've played this match more than anyone ever should and I've always felt that way.

Padô · Oct 19, 2009

This matchup is annoying BUT Wario can be much more annoying for TL than he is to Wario.

His projectiles doesn't reach our jumps which come out really fast and there is nothing that TL can really do against our Dair.
His bombs are easily grab-able with Z or Spotdodge and this open us a window to bomb -> Uair or Bomb -> Dair not so useful but very nice.
His game will be focused on his Zair which is his best approach option and combos starter, Zair to Nair, Zair dto Bair or Zair to Grab, his UAir is a airdodge punisher so don't get too predictable. Careful with his UpSmash and DI out his FSmash.
Wario can abuse from TL in the air so punish his airdodges and don't let him get onto stage when he get outstaged, angled bke throw **** his recovery.

60:40 for Wario

bassem6 · Oct 19, 2009

I would say 55:45 wario of 50:50. TL can stop dairs with utilt,U smash,uair, slightly spaced bairs and upward thrown bombs. This match up is much easier if you are good at powershielding and can predict the zair and powershield it then punish with something.

Masky · Oct 21, 2009

..........

PhantomX · Oct 21, 2009

The problem is getting the TLs into that situation where you can **** their recovery. I find that I'm very very rarely able to get Santi/Jerm into a position for edgeguarding.

Ledgdrop invincible nairs > TL though.

Masky · Oct 21, 2009

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toobusytocare · Oct 21, 2009

wait, just drop down, jump , then nair?

that messes TL up?

Masky · Oct 21, 2009

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toobusytocare · Oct 21, 2009

so i do this when they are about to up-b or when they are up b-ing?

Masky · Oct 21, 2009

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Humpy Thrashabout · Oct 22, 2009

That is excellent. I always end up in some stupid ledge shenanigans with TL. I can't believe I've never thought of that.

Other things I forgot to mention:
-If he is getting harassed offstage he'll make sure to pull out a bomb as he is floating back. If he losses his jumps and up-B the bomb will blow them up to give back the up-B.
-The boomerang can really mess you up in certain situations. If you get a grab and it's returning you should throw in the direction it's coming. If it hits before you throw it will knock you up slightly and give TL enough frame advantage to nair.
-The boomerang can also be used as an advantage. I'm not sure of the requirements for this to happen, but you can sometimes bite and get hit with the boomerang and get bounced into a setup for another bite. If someone could test that out it would be cool to know.
-His dair is very annoying if used correctly. The best thing to do is spot dodge on reaction and FSmash. If you miss the dodge he'll bounce off you're shield. After that it sort of becomes a tech chase. He can hit you again if you roll in either direction and he might break/poke your shield if you stand still.
-You can eat the bombs for low percent kills. I've messed around with this a bit, but you can iBomb drop -> b-reverse eat a bomb you've caught. It's kind of technical but looks effing sweet when you get it down. Someone better than me (Fiction? DMG? PX?) could probably do some cool stuff with that.

I've also done other (probably less effective) stuff to mess with his recovery. Try running offstage and b-reversing a bite right after he snaps to the ledge. If they are real low percent or on YI they'll get stage spiked on the release.

I'm not sure if I should be giving this much advice since I haven't placed anywhere or beaten anyone notable. Feel free to tell me to stop. Here is a video that might be useful, I think my friend is a pretty good TL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ2fQJqeevI
(ignore the awful waft attempts)

Masky · Oct 22, 2009

..........

toobusytocare · Oct 22, 2009

you can drop a bomb without air dodging...

Humpy Thrashabout · Oct 22, 2009

I only suggested that way because you have to drop the bomb while continuing momentum in a direction and I had trouble doing that consistently without the iBomb method. If you have a steady hand I guess you could:
SH over your opponent while moving to the right, let the stick go neutral while you drop with z, then move it back to the right for a few frames to get you away from it, then b-reverse bite.
If you can do that then that would be a preferable method, but if you drop during the ending frames of your AD then waiting isn't really an issue and it's less predictable. Wario is always SHADing.

Chip. · Oct 23, 2009

I forgot to post in here haha. Mathcup seems pretty even imo. Wario is really heavy and can kill early but has a hard time approaching through bair or projectile camping vs TL. It seems like whoever gets the lead in the match seems to win since they both have a good camp game.

toobusytocare · Oct 23, 2009

Chip. said:
I forgot to post in here haha. Mathcup seems pretty even imo. Wario is really heavy and can kill early but has a hard time approaching through bair or projectile camping vs TL. It seems like whoever gets the lead in the match seems to win since they both have a good camp game.

i actually sort of agree with this because this happens a lot with me Vs dr.mario12

but the one thing is that warios fart kills ridiculously early and is the biggest key to this matchup IMO

Chip. · Oct 23, 2009

Fart and Fsmash are the two things to watch out for, but other than that and his weight, Wario doesn't really have any other strong advantages. Like I said above, it seems like whoever gets the lead in the match tends to win and TL has projectiles to get that lead and a Bair that goes through his aerials and makes it difficult for him to approach.

I don't think Ive ever been edgeguarded effectively by a Wario unless it was a fart. Is there anything else he can do that I don't know about haha?

PhantomX · Oct 23, 2009

Invincible ledgedrop nairs or really far chases into fair pokes.

Wario's Week 15 Matchup: Toon Link!

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