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Lucario vs. Ike (30) Export

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Ike



Matchup:

60:40

General info:
Lucario verses Ike. Personally, this is no less than a 60-40 for Lucario (in my own twisted opinion).

Let's get started. Ike's Jab is very good. It seems like one of his fastest, and one of his best moves to use. Unless we're just barely far back enough for our Aura to just barely out range it, his Jab beats ours when used at the same time. It will clank with us at mid range, and will outright damage us at close range, so you're going to have to try to stay out of his range (if that's even possible). Lucario's floaty enough to not have to worry about his Jab Cancel, though. His Dash has Good Range, but he himself is very slow, and it takes a little bit of time to use it, so it's easy to dodge. His Forward Tilt outranges ours by a little bit, but ours is much faster than his. His Down Tilt is good to try to kill us if we grab the ledge, but otherwise, it feels a bit too slow to use. Beware of his Uptilt. It's kinda fast, and can allow him to follow up with one of his Aerials.

Speaking of which, because of that blasted sword, his Aerials all are actually good. His Forward Aerial has the LONGEST Range of Any Aerial in the Game, and there's very little we can say or do about it. The Ike Boards consider their Neutral Aerial their best move, being able to hit all around most of Ike's body for good range and damage, as well as being canceled on the ground into his jabs or grabs. His Down Aerial is great at Spiking, and some Ikes like to use it on the stage by running, short hoping, and then using it so that you get hit by the end of the move. Up Aerial lasts a dang long time and kills pretty quickly. He can get you while you're falling back down with this move. And HOLY**** is his Back Aerial Fast! Another good kill move, too. I don't like trying to fight Ike in the air unless you're starting the fight.

Ike's Forward Smash is BEAST GANON POWERFUL, but also very ....sssssssssllllllllooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww..... so it's probably your fault if you get hit by it. That being said, DON'T GET HIT BY IT! A kill on the edge of Final Destination at 50% is nothing to be toyed with. His Up Smash is probably his best Smash, hitting all around him and doing moderate damage and knock back. His Down Smash destroys Rolls (.... **** ...), so don't get too Rolly around Ike. Eruption has a nifty Super Armor Effect, plus it can help stall him in the air, not to mention to keep us from desstroying him upon landing. Counter is... a better version of our Double Team, but still, virtually the same weaknesses apply. Quick Draw is an okay move, but since it's laggy when used on the ground (but not as much lag upon use in the air and landing), not to mention we can gimp his recovery if he has to use this to get back to stage, Ike will mainly use this while over the stage, just to get around. Aether is probably the better of his recovery moves, not to mention it can combo you if you've been freshly launched into the air, so try to avoid that. Ike doesn't seem to use his grabs as much as his other moves, but they're still there. A Good Pummel and his Forward Throw are the biggest things to look out for, though.

Against Ike, he'll have to Approach you, or else you can simply Aura Sphere him to Death. Don't try to use too many slow moves: (Slow-Moves-That-Are-Strong-When-You're-About-To-Die) vs (Slow-Moves-That-Are-Automatically-Strong-And-Can-Kill-You-Very-Early) seems to be in Ike's favor. Use Faster moves against him. Tilts and Short Hoped Aerials are very good for the Soul. Ike is another one of those Fatty-Fat-Fat-Fats that gets easily stringed by our Force Palm, so don't let that go to waste. Shield Grabing him to abuse any non fast attack he uses is a great way to battle him (in my opinion). But don't fight him in the Air. (In my opinion) Ike will dominate us if we try to battle him in a glorious battle amoungst the clouds. Try to keep his Fat *** ground bound, where he's **** food for your graby little hands. Feel free to use your many short-hoped Aerials on him, though.


In Total, Ike in Brawl is what Ganondorf SHOULD HAVE BEEN: A Slow Power House with a Sword. Ikendorf will keep you on your toes, and can slaughter you incredibly quick if you aren't constantly on alert. Thankfully, you can outspeed him and decimate him with your combo attacks, so he's not too much of a threat. Again, I think this matchup is a 60:40 Lucario.




What to avoid:
Otay! :D
So, how about talking about the Ike MU? Is Ryko trying to get on that? And could we have discussion on it?

I think we have to keep a few things in mind to watch out for:
Raaaange: fair in particular is a pretty nasty aerial that is actually deceptively good for zoning. iirc, it has some slight IASA frames on it. Careful of it. ftilt, utilt, bair, and nair also have really nice range.
Nair: Autocancels, and allows for a good transition to his nasty jab game. If you get hit by it but are out of range for a jab, he can still try to outzone you with fair or some aerials as a mixup. This shouldn't be too bad though because our aerials are good for walling off before he can get another one out.
Jaaaaab: It's amazing, comes out on frame 3, and can lead to utilt or grab if you don't SDI out, but the whole thing still does a whopping 14%. Get away, you can't really challenge it unless for some odd reason he misses.
Bair: Fastest aerial startup wise, can be used to punish misspaced aerials, and killing. Very good of keeping Ike somewhat safe from aerial shenanigans. As Isai says, "Don't get hit"
tilts: Ike's tilts are pretty powerful, with less speed compared to snakes but about the same kill power. ftilt has long range horizontally, and utilt vertical, can punish misspaced/mistimed stuff pretty well.
The key here is to not underestimate Ike, projectiles can hurt him a lot, but he has the capability to do some good gains against someone who isn't spacing right when he comes in. His recovery methods are pretty meh, so gimping is a possibility with fair strings. Overall I'd say the MU is either 60:40 or 65:35 lucario's favor.




How to win:
I have a lot of experience with fighting a pretty good Ike, the best thing to do is just play defensive since Ike has to approach, and if he screws up, you punish him for it. Its an easy matchup really, dont try to approach him while he is in the air, simply because he does outrange Lucario, hes big and fairly easy to juggle. Try to stay out of Ike's grab range, and avoid staying too close just because his jab is excellent, but if you just keep letting him come to you its pretty easy to control the flow of the match.

But by and large, my absolute favorite part of this matchup is how ridiculously easy it is to kill Ike once you knock him off stage, you should always try to have a fully charged aura sphere in this matchup if you are going to attempt to knock Ike off stage, when you do knock him off stage, just wait by the edge (out of aether range) and if he goes for a quick draw you toss an Aura Sphere at him, if he tries to recover with aether then you just throw the aura sphere so it will hit him if he doesnt perfectly sweetspot the ledge. Its so easy to repel Ike from the stage my friend will hardly oblige my Lucario with a match against his Ike.
Ike.

Always be patient and wait for Ike to approach. His wieght makes him a big target for aerial or ground combos. Jab mixups and Utilts for easy damage. Just don't get too greedy otherwise you'll be eating a Fair that hurts. Nothing we have outranges it which is why you should be careful when he's approaching. As long as you play in Lucario's good aspects it wouldn't be too hard to aviod Ike's jab attacks. You can also force plam chain grab Ike fairly well at early percents.
Had to edit this a bit, but good advice




Helpful tips:

A few comments @Da

-Lucario still has to worry about Jab canceling, just less then say Bowser. He may be floaty, but he's still tall and thus easy to hit. And Jab -> Grab is still a true combo.

- If Ike has his second jump still, he never has to QD to get back on the stage. DB + Aether = same horizontal distance as max charged QD when accounting for charge time.

- Ike's jab can clank out any AS that isn't full charged, so I'm not sure how well spamming that against him will work. He might be able to jab each one and keep his shield at full. It would be better to fully charge it, and then nail him with it when he's using aether to recover.

6-4 seems right to me.







Stages:
-Ike likes Rainbor Cruise when he has the better air game. Heck, we have an Ike that purposely CPs RC as much as possible. And you said above don't fight Ike in the air. >_> RC moves slow enough that we are rarely screwed over by that, Utilt kills a even faster in the top area (yay for Utilt as strong as Snake's), and we get a cool Fthrow infinity on the ship. Jungle Japes on the other hand is Ike's worse stage. But he will strike it (unless it's San, because I think he likes this stage. O_o stupid aether on stage -> spike into water)

-If Pirate Ship is legal, and you don't ban it: you've lost. Plain and simple. Aether in water = good bye to your stock.
Oh, and Stages? Ike seems to do very good on most Starter Stages, specifically Battle Field, where he can control the platforms quite well. He also seems to like Distant Planet as a regular stage, and Castle Siege. Basically, those little stages where he can reach the platforms and **** people with are good for him. And Delfino Plasa has a few areas where you can get Infinitely Grabed on, as does Corneria, so be wary. To **** him up, Ike seems to HATE Frigate Orpheon, so try to drag his *** into Hell if you can. Muhaha. I think the only worse version of Hell would be those stages where he has to do a lot of jumping, where if you throw him horizontally and then get hit by his Quick Draw in mid air, screwing him over *cough Rainbow Cruise cough*. So, I recomend banning Battlefield, unless you can assure you get to start on Final Destination or Smashville (sweet long stages where you can piss him off with Projectiles and Chain Grabs), in which case, try to ban one of the 4 stages you dislike the most: Corneria, Delfino Plasa, Castle Siege, or Distant Planet. Personally, I'd sell my Soul to start off on Final Destination, then move onto Rainbow Cruise or Frigate Orpheon if I lose.
I'll fill in and say stages where your camp and gimp game are good while your recovery options are still strong are great places, such as FD and Frigate. Even some other stages like Yoshi's Island can do pretty well, although your camp game may become limited.




Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.
 

Gregory2590

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
487
Location
New Jersey
NNID
phireblast
This matchup is a tad bit harder on wifi :(. Then again, Lucario is a wifi character himself. *sigh* I wish I had the ability to play offline.
 

Vionce

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
326
Location
San Diego, CA
Originally Posted by phi1ny3
Nair: Autocancels, and allows for a good transition to his nasty jab game. .
Are you sure? I think in the frame data thread here, someone said that it didn't, and the ike boards say that it just has very little landing lag.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Yeah, people call it "autocanceling" because tactically, that's how it behaves, but technically most of the "autocanceling" you typically see is just really low landing lag for aerials.
 

Rayku

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 21, 2004
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Location
Minot, ND
With the lack of shield stun in Brawl, Ike's N-air on shield is probably one of his worst "shield pressure" options due to its poor range in front of Ike.
 
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