Wario's Week 17 Matchup REDISCUSSION: Snaaake!

Padô · Nov 3, 2009

Hey sexy beasts.

Time to discuss YMCA bearded ****.

~~Tilts~~ SNAKE

As always asked, numbers before your own comments about the Match-Up.

Wario uses Hype.
It's super effective.

Good discussion.

toobusytocare · Nov 4, 2009

FOX16 would use bite a lot in this matchup.

Corrupted · Nov 4, 2009

Very easy to read ledge advances, if he's on the ledge, he shouldn't be getting off without taking alot of damage. Fsmash OoS his get up attack and if its just a normal get up shield grab. Clap jump ledge advances and do whatever you want to ledge hop airdodges (bite is easiest).

Don't jump around when he's in a stationairy position (missed tech, ledge). Just stay close and wait for him to make the first move.

Full hopping to approach gives to more options to retreat and more options overall. If theres a grenade in front of him (bowser length) and you can't land behind him safely don't approach he has too many options. Perfectly autocanceling dair and landing behind him grants you an advantageous position but being predictable will get you pivot grabbed (insane range). Don't challenge Utilt just steer clear. Fsmash if it hits your shield.

He can't beat our upair, bait and read his airdodges for free wafts.

Shielddrop stutter step fsmash can punish his ftilt second hit even when spaced well, learn it.

PhantomX · Nov 4, 2009

If he's going to second hit ftilt your shield you may as well just spotdodge it and then punish with fsmash/whatever. It's a lot easier and gives more options. Be sure to observe their B-reversing recovery patterns, don't commit to anything if they're retreating (this should become standard in everyone's gameplay due to the increasing popularity of pivot grabbing).

Corrupted · Nov 4, 2009

PhantomX said:
If he's going to second hit ftilt your shield you may as well just spotdodge it and then punish with fsmash/whatever. It's a lot easier and gives more options. Be sure to observe their B-reversing recovery patterns, don't commit to anything if they're retreating (this should become standard in everyone's gameplay due to the increasing popularity of pivot grabbing).

Spotdodging it really isn't a good idea unless the snake always uses the second hit. You have to spotdodge very fast after the first hit to get a nice advantage, meaning you can't see if he's going to use it at all.

PhantomX · Nov 4, 2009

Snake's, unless they're completely unorthodox, SHOULD be using the second hit, b/c the first hit isn't truly cancelable and has plenty of vulnerable frames. That's besides the point, though. You can start your spotdodge as the second hit is starting and still have ample time to punish (waft, for example, since they're moving into you).

TBH though, everyone should just start smash DIing through Snake on ftilt hits. I manage to do it sometimes, but it's hard to do consistently. It really shuts down a lot of their close quarters options when you start doing that.

Humpy Thrashabout · Nov 4, 2009

I've been trying to bite their mortar slide lately. It works some times, but not others. I haven't been able to figure out which parts can be successfully chomped. Does anyone have any idea or someone to test it with. I'd love to see a stromotion picture that shows at which animations you should aim for.

Dynomite · Nov 4, 2009

100:0 done. next match up.

55:45-60:40

people say that FD is bad for this matchup, FD isnt necessarily bad. wario can out camp snakes on FD and dodge the grenades with ease. I prefer fighting a snake on FD rather than on SV because his tilts have a better chance of hitting you on a small FLAT stage rather than a large flat stage. bite ***** snake. up tilt is fun to use against snake. Dair is hard to punish.

there is many things wario can do in this matchup. YOU HAVE CHOICES!!! if your aggressive game fails out camp snake. if you arent doing well by camping rush in with your shield and airs. punish snake when in the air, he will either airdodge bair or nair, watch closely now.

bassem6 · Nov 4, 2009

I have a pretty good amount of snake experience. Here's what I think should be done:

1)full hop dair to double up air is a good combo if you can read their DI and they have low%.

2)Don't let them land. Keep juggling snake for maximum damage. if you know they are going to land before you can get them with an aerial, bite in front of them when they land.

3)If youre playing a campy nade snake, run up to him and grab then either up throw or fthrow without pummeling as that will prevent the nade from asploding and get them airborne.

4)If you can get them with a fair right as they use their second jump(in the air) then you are pretty much guaranteed a waft.

5)If they mortar slide to the edge of a stage and your already in that general area, go for a DASC(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S54mPByImY0) waft, upair or nair.

6)Finally, bite their cypher!

I would say 55:45 wario's advantage.

leatherhead93 · Nov 4, 2009

Ive played a good amout of skilled snakes and let me tell you its a pain sometimes. But snakes are actually pretty predicatable after a while. Snake is one of the only characters that can actually be good when they roll alot. He will pull out nades and shield your dair making it hard to approuch sometimes. Biteing and grabbing work wonders here since snakes shield alot more than alot of characters. However if you are going for bite make sure it will land on him. Though his ftilt is using his body its disjointed enough to knock you out bite. And watch out for pivot grab. It has monster range. BF is definetly a no go because snake is awesome at controling that stage. FD is definetly the best since you have some breathing room. When at death percentages you want to be more campy than usual. most snakes will try to spam utilt or grabs for a grab release kill. Its easy to make them pay for it if you take your time. Overall a somewhat hard matchup but what makes it easy is the fact that you should almost always kill him once he's offstage. Though it takes forever if the snake is using ally di and lives to like 200% lol. Also when he's recovering from above he might pull out a nade. i think its worth the damage to be able to uair him. He will take whooping 17% *fresh uair* plus the damage from the nade. Not only that hes still in the air lol.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 4, 2009

I'm not really sure it matters what stage you take snake too. He does well on every stage from what I see. So snake will control every stage he's on except RC but even without the stage control he can still work it to his advantage. I just say play where you're comfortable.

PhantomX · Nov 4, 2009

Take Snake where there is Fire :D

Padô · Nov 5, 2009

Just take Snake where your campy game is over ninthousand more useful then his and you shall win.

Dynomite · Nov 7, 2009

Padô said:
Just take Snake where your campy game is over ninthousand more useful then his and you shall win.

camping snakes is easy, BUT what if you fight an anti camp snake. Camping snake is just target practice for him.
I just got back from fighting biglou's snake and he is ****ing amazing. i could only beat him once, but i was doing much better when i was actually aggressive rather than camping him. i did not fight him on any fire levels because it was friendlies and there is no point in wasting 8 mins while other people are waiting so yeah. well when i was actually fighting back, it is much easier for wario. you don't have to be all up in his face, but you should hover around him and poke around. if you are lucky you can dair > stuff> bite gimp his cypher.

50:50, 55:45 nothing higher.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 7, 2009

dynomite said:
camping snakes is easy, BUT what if you fight an anti camp snake. Camping snake is just target practice for him.
I just got back from fighting biglou's snake and he is ****ing amazing. i could only beat him once, but i was doing much better when i was actually aggressive rather than camping him. i did not fight him on any fire levels because it was friendlies and there is no point in wasting 8 mins while other people are waiting so yeah. well when i was actually fighting back, it is much easier for wario. you don't have to be all up in his face, but you should hover around him and poke around. if you are lucky you can dair > stuff> bite gimp his cypher.

50:50, 55:45 nothing higher.

I don't see how you can take a friendly match and use that as a basis for your reasoning in the match up and you didn't even try to CP.

Dynomite · Nov 7, 2009

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
I don't see how you can take a friendly match and use that as a basis for your reasoning in the match up and you didn't even try to CP.

because we were practicing for a coming up tourney. Not everyone screws around in friendlies.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 7, 2009

dynomite said:
because we were practicing for a coming up tourney. Not everyone screws around in friendlies.

If you were practicing why didn't use your CP ?

Dynomite · Nov 7, 2009

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
If you were practicing why didn't use your CP ?

it was 4 of us on 1 tv and we were doing loser out. i personally would hate to watch someone else hop around brinstar for 8 minutes. let alone having someone inline in front of me. basically it was for time's sake. but still serious and 1 round.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 7, 2009

dynomite said:
it was 4 of us on 1 tv and we were doing loser out. i personally would hate to watch someone else hop around brinstar for 8 minutes. let alone having someone inline in front of me. basically it was for time's sake. but still serious and 1 round.

IDK if your practice for a tournament and then not CP'ing for time constraints then what practice are you really getting? Besides you don't need to camp that hard.

Dynomite · Nov 7, 2009

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
IDK if your practice for a tournament and then not CP'ing for time constraints then what practice are you really getting? Besides you don't need to camp that hard.

Well, Cps were on random and we all did random stages so we would practice on all not expecting what the stage would be (just like your opponent counter picking)

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 8, 2009

Can we go more into detail and get like a summary of the match up or something? I'm struggling with the match up and so far what's posted doesn't really help at all. It's not just this match up but there's no summaries for most of the match ups. It would be nice to have that reference point.

Masky · Nov 8, 2009

..........

Padô · Nov 11, 2009

Something I Notice on this match-up is the easy way I have to kill Snake.
Seriously, first I rack up damage on edgeguards, bites, and sometimes by managing snake's grenades better then him and sometimes using the from approach which give me a very comfortable match seriously.
Than I just SuperArmor FSmash on a tilt or a grenade, or uair while Snake try to beat one of our aerials but IMO the best way is to edgeguard him fair to waft, dair offstage and nair pushes are too good than when they lose height out of the stage just bite the cypher or gimp with footstools his C4 recovery.

Please if you guys disagree on something post it!

60-40 Wario on any random stage BUT FD.

toobusytocare · Nov 11, 2009

<content redacted>

Bite is great when snake is trying to recover or get on stage and goes through a lot of his stuff

i agree with 3

Dynomite · Nov 11, 2009

Biting is kinda hard to pull off, you dont want to run strait at him you will get tilted, and you dont want to jump on him you will get tilted.. i guess the only safe way to nom is shield punishing, yet again you might get grabbed

Padô · Nov 12, 2009

This match is similar to Wario's, in terms of 'bites'.
If you air bite you **** if you ground bite you get *****.
I think that defines best the bite issue.

For those who are brainless... Ground Bite = tilts

IMO the best stage to use bites is BF. Dropping through platforms and bite is just awesome to punish grounded and campy snakes. Down the platform you can just jump and bite snake above the platform too without getting punished, you just need to know the right side to bite.

Humpy Thrashabout · Nov 12, 2009

I actually like FD in this match as a neutral. It gives me enough space to avoid grenades and such. BF is tough because of all the platforms. A grenade on a platform can hit you when you are underneath and Dmashes left on a platforms are plain annoying.

Dynomite · Nov 12, 2009

Humpy Thrashabout said:
I actually like FD in this match as a neutral. It gives me enough space to avoid grenades and such. BF is tough because of all the platforms. A grenade on a platform can hit you when you are underneath and Dmashes left on a platforms are plain annoying.

i personally agree with this post 100% when i was playing lambchop's snake, i did better on FD than i would have on battle field. it might be for the reason stated above, or that he just really loves battle field.

Padô · Nov 14, 2009

A lots of good discussion has been put up here, thanks guys you are awesome!

Now if it wouldn't be such a pain for you, please post numbers so I can go for the next discussion ... FALCO!
Haha so, my veredict: Wario 60:40 Snake.

DMG · Nov 16, 2009

It's closer to 55:45 Wario's favor, if not 50:50 for both characters. There are some stages obviously where Wario wins 60:40 or harder (brinstar), but he does well enough on neutrals/tame CP stages to do fine against Wario.

Always trust your reads. Read hard. And grabbing him is extremely good, never underestimate the power of the grab.

6Mizu · Nov 16, 2009

Hi...I'm completely new. (I barely know anything, but I'm learning wario)
I personally think it's 50:50

Padô · Nov 18, 2009

By unanimous decision: 55-45.

Falco comming up.

Pwneroni · Feb 17, 2010

So after long deliberation, and watching every Wario vs Snake video there is, I have come up with a way to beat Snake.

Avoid every single tilt. Nades are ok to get hit by, even the occasional grab. Ftilt and Utilt however, must be avoided AT ALL COSTS!

Padô · Feb 18, 2010

Pwneroni said:
So after long deliberation, and watching every Wario vs Snake video there is, I have come up with a way to beat Snake.

Avoid every single tilt. Nades are ok to get hit by, even the occasional grab. Ftilt and Utilt however, must be avoided AT ALL COSTS!

It's a little hard to avoid those but you are right since the tilts are his main damage rackers, if you play really carefully Snake will have hard time to kill you.

Playing really carefully is: Not using FSmashes on his shield = UTilt, roll back whenever your shield gets tilted, try not to get pivot grabbed then grab released, take cara with the C4.
Not easy too

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Feb 18, 2010

Pwneroni said:
So after long deliberation, and watching every Wario vs Snake video there is, I have come up with a way to beat Snake.

Avoid every single tilt. Nades are ok to get hit by, even the occasional grab. Ftilt and Utilt however, must be avoided AT ALL COSTS!

Wouldn't getting grabbed lead to you getting utilteD?

toobusytocare · Feb 18, 2010

no smart snake will grab utilt...

he has too many better options

toobusytocare · Feb 18, 2010

12:29:03 AM toobsy2care: teach me wario vs snake
12:29:04 AM toobsy2care: GO
6:46:43 AM Fiction52s: bite
6:46:46 AM Fiction52s: thats it

Pwneroni · Feb 23, 2010

lol thats ******** fiction.

toobusytocare · Feb 23, 2010

bite ***** snake once you're inside

getting inside is just the hard part

Wario's Week 17 Matchup REDISCUSSION: Snaaake!

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