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Wario's Week 18 Matchup REDISCUSSION: Falco!

Padô

Padô

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This week:

Falco!

Please don't come here saying: "CG PWNzzZzz HArdz0r!1 368-0"

He's got a good spam and a very effective way to camp.

I think this a good issue to start discussing.

Good Discussion!
 
toobusytocare

toobusytocare

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I start of the match playing really safe as to not get CG'd and risk messing up and losing a stock.
(When you're standing on a platform on like BF, you can shield grab falco's aerials even though he's not all the way through the platform.)

From 53%-70% you can start the buffered downthrow CG that goes to around 120% After that I usually uthrow and bait the airdodge for a clap or fart.

The only hard part of this matchup is approaching.
His lasers and camping in general are REALLY good and annoying to deal with.

It's especially annoying when his lasers eat our jump :(
when this happens to me i often get buffer ****ed and miss the auto cancel on an aerial and wind up getting grabbed >_<


Random things to note:
-Watch out for Jab>Grab, that ****'s gay as hell. He can jab you as you're rolling away then grab, so you cant roll away lol. Try to SDI it
-Don't spotdodge unless you are 100% sure he's grabbing, otherwise you're open to be grabbed afterwards
-SDI THE SPIKE!!!!!! this is incredibly important! SDI towards the stage when you're being spiked and tech so that there's no risk of being gimped.
-Falco Can Grab Release>Spike at the edge, but it's easy to SDI because you start from really high up and its easy to time the SDI inputs
-Recover high, trust me
-don't airdodge into his fsmash, or into him at all really LOL
-Our nair and dsmash EASILY interrupt falco's illusion

When you interrupt falco's illusion he will have a LOT of landing lag next time he touches the ground. So be ready to punish that.

Also falco's kill moves (aside from bair) are REALLY easy to predict


I'll add more later
 
PhantomX

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Well, actually, certain moves can only beat Illusion at start up or ending frames, b/c it has increased priority in the middle. I think Fiction claimed that dsmash will always at least clank.
 
DMG

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You can also sometimes Bite them out of it. Like, "clank" with it. Falco will look like he is gonna be eaten, and it will look like the Cypher gimp we do to Snake.
 
DMG

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If it acts like a cypher gimp, why not? That's like as close to guaranteed death for Falco as it gets. He falls, you can either go for a stage spike/edgeguard or you can edgehog. Poof.
 
toobusytocare

toobusytocare

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oh i see...

are you sure he cant up b again? because i thought those sort of gimps only worked on character who dont go into helpless mode after their recovery move (Snake, GnW, etc.)
 
DMG

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He can Upb, however he is so low that by this point if you can't outright edgehog him, you can Fair him/Knock him a tad and then edgehog with ease.
 
PhantomX

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You gotta bite him at startup or near end. Also, it sucks b/c if they have fast reflexes they can just side B onto the stage/ledge before they fall at all. BUT, it COULD net you a surprise gimp/kill.
 
toobusytocare

toobusytocare

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Gichan said:
wooow, I gotta try that. So stay near the ledge and just time the bite? Or can I just hold it out?
Click to expand...
It's not easy to do.


overall, nair is best for interrupting illusion.

but dsmash is good if they are at high % because they will most likely not DI it and you can get an easy surprise kill.


don't forget that when you interrupt illusion, they get like 30 frames of landing lag or something ridiculous next time they touch the stage
 
ChomP

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Do you guys think falco is easier to beat on japes rather than FD? I beat some falcos on japes, but they aren't good. :(
 
A

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ChomP said:
Do you guys think falco is easier to beat on japes rather than FD? I beat some falcos on japes, but they aren't good. :(
Click to expand...
Japes is banned in my region so I wouldn't know. The only falco i played on Final D wrecked me so I would suggest banning that stage against him.
 
ChomP

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alright cool, I usually ban FD against falcos anyways. I prefer fighting them on japes. lol
 
ChomP

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Falcos also use their illusion a lot on japes from what i've noticed.
 
toobusytocare

toobusytocare

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ChomP said:
Falcos also use their illusion a lot on japes from what i've noticed.
Click to expand...
yes, they have a lot of illusion tricks. This combined with the platform set up makes they're camping really efficient.


also the high ceiling is gay because i usually kill falco off the top with uair because fsmash is risky in this matchup.
 
ChomP

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You kill them with uair? What percent do they die at with a fresh uair? I usually use fsmash when I'm above the chain grabbing percent.
 
toobusytocare

toobusytocare

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ChomP said:
You kill them with uair? What percent do they die at with a fresh uair? I usually use fsmash when I'm above the chain grabbing percent.
Click to expand...
freash uair starts killing above 100% pretty much.


but like, falco can still do stuff besides CG to punish.

like a whiffed fsmash can end in you getting usmashed or grabbed and thrown for like 15% (if you count pummels)

im not saying to not fsmash but i definitely don't kill with it often.
 
Gichan

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yeah, **** falco on japes, it is A LOT harder than FD. That cg to spike, if you don't tech it, you're gone. it's worse than on FD cause at least you can mindgame yourself back on the stage.

Illusion all over the place, laser laser, illusion on to ledges. It's ridiculous.
 
A

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toobusytocare said:
erm, its easier for them to camp on japes i think.

also the CG to spike shouldnt be a factor because you should always SDI it and tech
Click to expand...
I guess I need to get my tech skill up.

Anyways Japes isn't a stage you want to see falco on neither is final D. Also I don't see how one stage makes it easier for them to camp as opposed to another one.
 
Gichan

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it's their ability to get around much faster on japes then on FD by grabbing on the ledges so they don't have that little lag at the end of the move. And I also feel that the cg to spike is worse on japes, so personally japes is more dangerous then FD.
 
PhantomX

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CG spike should never kill you on japes unless they're spiking you into a klaptrap. Also, Wario should never die to Falco on Japes ever.
 
Lord Chair

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About the Phantasm interruption...

The first half of the teleporting part of the Phantasm is filled with invincibility frames, so if you want to get them at the beginning you have to go for the start-up frames. At the second half of the Phantasm, you can interrupt it with pretty much EVERYTHING so long as you time it right. The whole idea is that it's easier to do with longer lasting hitboxes because it makes the timing easier.

Dsmash won't kill when you use it to interrupt the Phantasm unless you are capable of timing it in the first frames, in which case you would also have been capable to use fsmash or whatever. The good thing is that at high percentages, a dsmash weakbox would be a decent gimp if the second half of the Phantasm isn't done on-stage, but rather aerial (mostly because of the weird knockback angle the thing seems to feature...).

If timing isn't your thing, Nair works fine of course. Fair is also decent if you're more confident in your timing capabilities, and hell it does 2% more damage undiminished...

And there I almost forgot about Dair, it has quite the lasting hitbox as well.

On Bite: I wouldn't recommend it, it looks cool and such and you could say it would be a surprise gimp offstage, but really Nair would do the job in the same fashion, only more effective and less risky.
 
toobusytocare

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Lord Chair said:
About the Phantasm interruption...

The first half of the teleporting part of the Phantasm is filled with invincibility frames, so if you want to get them at the beginning you have to go for the start-up frames. At the second half of the Phantasm, you can interrupt it with pretty much EVERYTHING so long as you time it right. The whole idea is that it's easier to do with longer lasting hitboxes because it makes the timing easier.

Dsmash won't kill when you use it to interrupt the Phantasm unless you are capable of timing it in the first frames, in which case you would also have been capable to use fsmash or whatever. The good thing is that at high percentages, a dsmash weakbox would be a decent gimp if the second half of the Phantasm isn't done on-stage, but rather aerial (mostly because of the weird knockback angle the thing seems to feature...).

If timing isn't your thing, Nair works fine of course. Fair is also decent if you're more confident in your timing capabilities, and hell it does 2% more damage undiminished...

And there I almost forgot about Dair, it has quite the lasting hitbox as well.

On Bite: I wouldn't recommend it, it looks cool and such and you could say it would be a surprise gimp offstage, but really Nair would do the job in the same fashion, only more effective and less risky.
Click to expand...
I find it easier to hit with the strong part of dsmash than fsmash. but idk lol
 
Waft-OLi

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Lord Chair said:
About the Phantasm interruption...

The first half of the teleporting part of the Phantasm is filled with invincibility frames, so if you want to get them at the beginning you have to go for the start-up frames. At the second half of the Phantasm, you can interrupt it with pretty much EVERYTHING so long as you time it right. The whole idea is that it's easier to do with longer lasting hitboxes because it makes the timing easier.

Dsmash won't kill when you use it to interrupt the Phantasm unless you are capable of timing it in the first frames, in which case you would also have been capable to use fsmash or whatever. The good thing is that at high percentages, a dsmash weakbox would be a decent gimp if the second half of the Phantasm isn't done on-stage, but rather aerial (mostly because of the weird knockback angle the thing seems to feature...).

If timing isn't your thing, Nair works fine of course. Fair is also decent if you're more confident in your timing capabilities, and hell it does 2% more damage undiminished...

And there I almost forgot about Dair, it has quite the lasting hitbox as well.

On Bite: I wouldn't recommend it, it looks cool and such and you could say it would be a surprise gimp offstage, but really Nair would do the job in the same fashion, only more effective and less risky.
Click to expand...
can you get a replay or record it? if you cant record it make a replay and send it to me i want to see it.
 
Dynomite

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~mjg~ said:
I bet this match up is extremely ******** ;o
Click to expand...
this man bets the truth

either falco is gonna be gay to wario, or wario is gonna be gay to falco. either way the matchup is rather boring.

Wario's game: chaingrab and dodge lasers
Falco's game: chaingrab and try to pile damage with lasers
Crowd: lets watch something else

done! next rediscussed match up?
 
DMG

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Gay for both sides? 55:45 Wario, possibly 6:4.

Peach on Brinstar that is.
 
Dynomite

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DMG said:
Gay for both sides? 55:45 Wario, possibly 6:4.

Peach on Brinstar that is.
Click to expand...
not exactly gay. its just boring.

I havnt fought any GOOD peaches but that would be a matchup ide love to keep away from.
 
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