Sonic Matchup Discussion

Teh Brettster said:

... You realize every character can punish spot dodges in their own ways.. and spot-dodging is specific to player habits.
I have no idea why you're including spot dodging habits, especially of one specific player in a match-up thread. That's just dumb.

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some characters have better spotdodges than others, and as such some characters are going to have spotdodge be a big part of their matchup discussion.

thats like saying that you arent going to be talking about spot dodge to down smash when you discuss how to beat rob, or that you wont talk about how good lucarios roll is when you are trying to fight him. So as far as im concerned, youre the dumb one here. cus the fact is ike has a very good spotdodge, and it works very well in this matchup, because even tho sonic has lingering hitboxes, hes always moving so those hitboxes dont stay in the same place.

Teh Brettster said:

No.
What?
No.

I don't see what that would even begin to accomplish. If you still get hit by the spring... there's no difference. And if you miss the spring, well, awesome job of QDing to your death and looking like a **** moron instead of at least -trying- to recover, which is easy anyway, because spring gimping seriously isn't difficult to survive....

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you can in fact safe your self using the spring, depending on the situation. if Ike is over 100% and gets hit with the spring, if you DI it up, it will add a bit more length to your recovery. and why are you talking about missing the spring if you are trying to use it to help you? I thought matchup discussions were supposed to assume both players are good, so talking what if you make a mistake doing whatever move, doesnt really apply. since your so concerned with the 'proper' way to do matchup discussions...

Teh Brettster said:

Wow, I really don't even like match-up discussions anymore.

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nobodys asking you to contribute, if you have a problem, you dont have to be here.

san3711 said:

Ike shouldn't be gimped by spring very often at all. If one assumes correct DI(aka top corner of the map), there aren't many circumstances where spring will actually be successful. Spring should only work if the Ike was barely going to make it anyways, and most of that is simply covered just by grabbing the ledge.

I think bthrow to dash attack doesn't work on sonic. I tried it multiple times before, but only got powershielded.

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man everyone forgot how Bthrow > DA actually works and just call it a combo or not a combo on some characters now

I might have to go put the link to yagami's post in title of ashunera's library. Bthrow > DA is basically only a combo after 40% and i think even then it has to be buffered perfectly. Then it stops being a combo again after some % idk which one and it doesn't work on 3 characters olimar was 1 of them and i forgot the other 2.

im probably wrong, but im going to assume this is a serious post

-RedX- said:

Wait, when fighting Sonic, couldn't you just...not dodge and he's not gonna kill at all?

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well that depends....

if you dont dodge, you dont leave yourself vulnerable for sonics laggy kill moves.
but if you dont shield, youll get hit by them anyway.

if you do just hold shield, than sonic can either.
1. kill ike at 220 or so with up throw.
2. toss ike offstage and go for giimps, whihc kinda works at any percentage.

Most of Ike's options to space this particular character is countered by the shield grab which if the Ike is careless sonic will do all day. The only problem for sonic in most matches that would make him not just run over Ike is his jab, and the jab cancels which means sonic would have to use more movement fakes and rely less on the spindash. The key is sonic's ability to punish Ike and pressure the spacing from half a stage a way, which should prompt a lot of nairs and jabs from Ike in hopes the sonic would basically run into them, or to say it better, in an attempt to stuff the potential approach. In essence, Ike can't really safely approach Sonic outside of nair/jab and that can be susupect due to bad spacing.

Sonic's lack of multiple kill options give Ike a chance to kill him first regardless, but that is entirely dependant on whether he can predit and punish his multiple fakes and approaches. Sonic is more reliant on getting him offstage as a result, where his superior recovery allows him to battle Ike at a distance where his recovery is suspect to failure. DIing up and using Quick Draw can solve this on many of those kill moves, but a Down throw from sonic off stage could be an issue, since the Spring from sonic's up B can end a stock if the Ike isn't high enough to use his Quick Draw.

Even so, the nuances of sonic's full agiliy on the ground and in the air is considered high-level, meaning unless you're fighting a really good/decent sonic, Ike will have a better chance to deal damage as the sonic gets predictable. In addition, the fact that sonic has to use a lot of fakes means he has no reliable go-to move to hit Ike out of his aerial game, since ike has more range. And so, since the edge is really based mostly on the ability to predict and counter on both sides...

Sonic vs Ike - Even.

I don't see a distinct advantage between the two. Ike has the power to kill sonic early, but Sonic has the agility to hold that ability at bay on the ground. Sonic's lack of kill moves is always an issue, which prevents him from taking full advantage of the matchup.

I'll pass the knowledge Malcolm gave me and say that

Ike vs Sonic is 50:50

Just the fact that Ike does not have to approach Sonic. And Sonic approaching Ike is very difficult vs an Ike that knows the match up. I've played Malcolm's Ike as Sonic and got destroyed. I learned the match up now and it still goes even.

March 08 spring gimps shouldn't work and if its working on the ike then he/she is a dumb Ike in the first place. The only thing Sonic has going for him in this match up is punishing lag from Ike's moves. And a good Sonic should be able to do that no problem unless the Ike actually knows how to space Fairs, nairs, to jabs which they all should be able to do at this point.

So pretty much its

Ike - kills early. Doesnt need to approach. Can stop Sonics approaches. Jab lol.

Sonic - Punishes. Can gimp Ike (barely putting this here).

I agree with 50:50, mostly its a nuisance matchup considering Sonic's tactics compared to Ike's game and approach. Honestly, from an "Ike" perspective you hope your opponent is into straight up fights rather than a more evasive/mind games play. Otherwise the match can be tiring. F-air is very important besides jab combos in this matchup to counter Sonic's speedy spacing.