The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

Inferno3044 · Nov 23, 2009

Mario Rediscussion Thread

As soon as the matchup thread finished, I've seen people already wanting to rediscuss people
and I feel that it was needed to make a thread for this.

Notes:

Please look at the original MU thread before bringing up someone:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227291
Every character doesn't have to be rediscussed. Just characters that people feel should be.
No spamming. Inferno burns spam >.<
Under every picture, I will have the ratio before it there.

Ratio clarifications:

50:50 - The MU is very even with no character having any significant advantage

55:45 - One character has a slight, but noticeable advantage over the other. Not an assured win by the one with the advantage

60:40 - One character has a very clear advantage over the other and can be predicted that the character with the advantage will win a set of 3 if both players are at similar skill levels. The one with the disadvantage still has a kinda decent chance of winning but might have to work harder.

65:35 - One character has a large advantage over the other character. That character will probably win if they play the MU correctly and don't make fatal mistakes assuming the players are around the same skill level.

70:30-75:25 - One character has an extremely large advantage and can shut down most of their options without much difficulty. Very difficult for the character with the disadvantage to win.

80:20+ - This MU is unwinnable at high levels of play. As long as the character with the advantage has some idea of how this MU goes and the person who has the disadvantage isn't astronomically better, you should win.

Disadvantages:

- 65:35

- 65:35

- 60:40

- 60:40

Slight Disadvantages:

- 57:43

- 55:45

- 55:45

Even:

- 50:50

-50:50

- 50:50

Slight Advantages:

Advantages:

- 60:40

Rediscussion #1: Snake

Page 1 - Page 3

Rediscussion #2: Olimar

Page 4 - Page 7

Rediscussion #3: Mr. Game and Watch

Page 7 - Page 11

Rediscussion #4: Lucario

Page 12 - Page 15

Rediscussion #5: Bowser

Page 17 - Page 23

Rediscussion #6: Luigi

Page 25 - Page 30

Rediscussion #7: Metaknight

Page 31 - Page 37

Rediscussion #8: King Dedede

Page 37 - Page 39

Rediscussion #8: Falco

Page 41 - Page 44

Rediscussion #9: Wario

Page 44 - Page 47

Rediscussion #10: Pit

Page 47 - Page 49

Rediscussion #11: Toon Link

Page 49 - Page 53

Rediscussion #12: Donkey Kong

Page 54 - Page 59

Rediscussion #13: Ness

Page 61 - Page 66

Rediscussion #14: Lucas

Page 66 - Page 70

Rediscussion #15: Peach

Page 73 - Page 79

Rediscussion #16: Ike

Page 80 - Page 81

Victim #35: Sheik

Previous Ratio: Even

A2ZOMG · Nov 23, 2009

6/4 to 65/35 Snake...just because not everyone is named Boss or something like that.

In theory if you can get a gimp and play SUPER safe while managing to find time to punish stuff that Snake does like random mortar slides, grenade shielding, tilts, etc, then the matchup looks fine.

But since almost none of us really can do that consistently as far as I know, I doubt it's merely 45/55 for now.

Grabbing and fireballs imo are the most essential tools in this matchup. You need to find a way to gain control of the flow.

Matador · Nov 23, 2009

Mario has the tools in this matchup, it's just too easy to fall into Snake's "no zones" where he can Dthrow techchase, Nair, Ftilt, or something to that effect to close in damage-wise.

Mario can combo Snake to hell though, it's insane. His options after our Utilt are practically 0.

Matt07 · Nov 23, 2009

I dunno, I mean it's a really hard battle when he's on the ground. When we get him in the air things get a little easier...

I dunno, I'm debating for 60:40, or 65:35 in our favour. Some Snake mains should come and help us with this...

Inferno3044 · Nov 24, 2009

I'll get them, but I want to put in my bit before I do that.

This MU is far from unwinnable. Honestly, Snake can be a very underestimated character in theory because you assume it's the optimal play meaning little to no mistakes. Snake's best part could be punishing an unsafe attack. One unsafe attack on his shield can result in the opponent taking quite a lot of damage from jab and/or ftilt or get killed by Utilt. To beat a good Snake it requires patience and excellent spacing. Chances are that Snake will out camp you, but FH fireballs at mid range and hinder his nades a bit. You also really have to keep an eye on him. Make sure you know when he nade drops and when he does dair the upper part of his shield. Don't poorly space against him or you will get Ftilted or grabbed.

Of course there's the known stuff like Snake's air game sucks, we can juggle him with not too much difficulty, he's ridiculously heavy, etc. I don't think we need to go into that.

I see this MU as 55:45 Snake only as an extremely skilled Mario who knows Snake backwards and forwards. If not, then I guess it would be 6:4 Snake. I don't think its 65:35 because in my eyes, that means he is shuts down most of our options and I don't think Snake does that.

vato_break · Nov 24, 2009

Snake is very hard, basically you have to gimp snake or your chances of winning are slimmer(snake can easily live to 200% if you waste a smash move early), however i think mario's fthrow and proper spacing is perfect for this. If you can cllip his second jump near the ledge(mainly ftilt and bair) you can easily get a lead and camp. Fireballs should be used more for baiting and punishing. If you do approach at all fireball>sheildgrab is pretty amazing because as i already mentioned above it's vital you get a gimp on snake at a early %. Fludd is pretty good in this matchup. you can c4 gimp him, fludd him if he's holding a nade by the edge and also pushing snake away when you need room.The major problems i see in this matchup are getting inside snake becayse snake has massive range and mario has very little in comparison. If you make a mistake you definately guarentee that you will be taking high% for it. 65:35 snakes favor, snake limits mario options too much too the point where being predictable is very likely.

DtJ XeroXen · Nov 24, 2009

It's no harder than 60:40, but I don't like to discuss matchups so yeah...

Calebyte · Nov 24, 2009

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Snake can be f-aired, n-aired, and b-aired off his cypher. If you can force a low recovery, you've got a lot more options for edge guarding. It's especially effective if Snake is at a medium to high %.

Admittedly though, I don't have a lot of experience in this MU.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Nov 24, 2009

Hmm, I need to find gud Snake players, I don't know if Ally wants to friendly me on AiB, but I'll say this 60/40 or 55/45 b/c some Snake players are easy to deal with, but I'll never EVER agree w/ 65:35 cuz it's makes me feel like I'm Lucas or sum crap like that. I agree w/ Inferno, I can ONLY say 55/45, if not 60/40, this match-up ain't hard to beat and accomplish. I play this match-up every single day. If y'all say 65/35, u need learn how to play Snake a lot more and work on that match-up until u get it right and beat him. lol

Javon89 · Nov 24, 2009

I'd say 6:4 Snake, I mean this match-up is hard (depending on how campy and how much he uses his god tilts) but winnable.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Nov 24, 2009

Javon89 said:
I'd say 6:4 Snake, I mean this match-up is hard (depending on how campy and how much he uses his god tilts) but winnable.

I always liked this match-up, I know it is not in our favor, but I can handle his tilts after he does it so I can shield grab him, this match-up can be winnable for Mario but it's gonna be hard to take him down tho. Snake have his accessories to make him heavier and have a lot of options to handle us which is somewhat gay, you know.

Javon89 · Nov 24, 2009

And plus his resilience and a person with a good DI can give us killing problems.

A2ZOMG · Nov 24, 2009

In theory I would probably agree with 55/45 Snake on the basis of listing tools.

Just in actual practice, I've only seen a few specific players (you know who you are) win this matchup solidly. Snake's weight and stupid damage output is honestly the main problem in this matchup.

Inferno3044 · Nov 24, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
In theory I would probably agree with 55/45 Snake on the basis of listing tools.

Just in actual practice, I've only seen a few specific players (you know who you are) win this matchup solidly. Snake's weight and stupid damage output is honestly the main problem in this matchup.

This is what I mean. It definitely winnable, but you really have to be at Mario's optimal levels to win solidly. Unfortunately, very few of us are at that level. You can probably count how many Mario's are on that level with your hands (you might just need one). I think this ratio can be very confusing for that reason.

@Lil G - I agree. If you think it's 65:35, you might need some good Snake experience. I have almost no Snake experience and I don't think that.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Nov 24, 2009

Inferno3044 said:
This is what I mean. It definitely winnable, but you really have to be at Mario's optimal levels to win solidly. Unfortunately, very few of us are at that level. You can probably count how many Mario's are on that level with your hands (you might just need one). I think this ratio can be very confusing for that reason.

@Lil G - I agree. If you think it's 65:35, you might need some good Snake experience. I have almost no Snake experience and I don't think that.

Inferno, I didn't say it's 65/35, I said 55/45, if not, 60/40.

Inferno3044 · Nov 24, 2009

Sorry if I didn't make that clear. When I said you, I meant any Mario main, not you specifically. My bad.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Nov 24, 2009

lol it's ok man.

Berserker. · Nov 25, 2009

Snake can be easily juggled by Mario's u-air but if Snake would dare camping, prepare timing fireballs or capes and FLUDDS seriously, Snake's camping will be painful. Snake can seriously control the stage good because of his mines, C4s and grenades will be big trouble for Mario.

This is probably 60:40 Snake, try asking the other Snake--ers

JUDGE · Nov 25, 2009

i think this MU is a clear 60:40
and definetly not arguable with 55:45 or 65:35

waterfall6464 · Nov 25, 2009

Mhm 60-40 seems right.

Oh, and I think the charizard matchup is better than even...

We juggle him like DK and Ganon, rock smash is slow enough to cape on reaction and his recovery is nothing special really.

Inferno3044 · Nov 25, 2009

One character at a time. We can discuss PT another time.

I'd have to agree with the camping thing with Snake. He can camp like a ***** and can keep us away with ftilt. It's hard as hell to outcamp him because it's hard to force an approach. There are ways to beat it. I believe you can't cape his nades normally or else they will blow up in your face. I'm not sure if you can do some other cape thing to reflect them or not. When he throws them at you, your best choice depends on whether it was cooked or not. If it's pretty cooked and you think it will explode near the time it will get to you, FLUDD the nade. It will stop it in its tracks and won't hit you. If it's uncooked, catch it and throw it back at him. He'll probably shield it which gives you some time to go in. After that, it's all close combat.

Everything else is the well known for Mario to do vs. Snake. Juggle as much as possible, rack up damage, try to gimp, if you can't you gotta kill him at stupidly high percents. That's what makes Snake #2 on the tier list and why this MU is 60:40 Snake. It's his weight and his ability to survive.

Should we wait to get more info from Snake players or are we good?

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Nov 25, 2009

Can we say 55/45 arguable for 60/40 or 60/40 arguable for 55/45 or just keep as 60/40, it's doesn't matter to me if we move on or not.

hippiedude92 · Nov 25, 2009

65:35 if snake's set up (yes it actually DOES matter with his traps) plus if he has the advantage in port priority due to nade grabbing which hits Mario alot

6/4 or 55:45 snake if he isnt set up / has no port priority

snake's wall is extremely gay to the max, l try my best not to approach the wall and rather take my time, and be patient... expect every good snake to take at least a good 6 mins ~ if you want to play flawlessly..

if spaced correctly, jab/ftilt/dsmash will hit snake and not set off the nade if he's holding it

dair is really great for the matchup since shield pressuring him eats him apart and it's safe esp if he's shield is low

also from the comments i read, some don't mention this often, but DO NOT FEAR THE NADES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seeing a Mario being scared of a nade for a whole 8 mins is dumb and stupid and YOU WILL miss good openings if u get worried about a little 3% of a nade hitting you so don't be afraid.

Mario's best bet is to control the middle of the stage since trapping snake to the edge reduces his space around him and better chances of forcing a offstage.

another thing i didn't see in the posts is that snake's getting edgeguard'd and on the ledge ARE ****! snake's ledge options are so ****, if mario can correctly predict it (i prefer bair since it covers alot of his options and most times they will airdodge for safety) snake eats damage for trying to come back onstage, so besides keeping snake in the air, make sure he doesnt come back on stage is part of your main objective

and all other things are said already

Limeee · Nov 25, 2009

you guys need to discuss moves that get snake a good angle. in this match up you can't go for the normal kill you have to gimp/spike him. i'm a somewhat new snake player but i also used to play mario (so i could definately be wrong) but going for the normal kill will take forever

Berserker. · Nov 26, 2009

I think it's 60:40 Snake

-Ran · Nov 27, 2009

The match up is certainly in Snake's favor. I've played a relatively good Mario player in our state on and off throughout the evolution of the Brawl Metagame. My strongest recommendation that I could make is that if Snake is running towards you, do not launch a fireball. He'll just perfect shield it, but more importantly he's going to stop running which means he'll have access to his tilts, etc. Only utilize your fireballs when you are approaching Snake, which is a situation that you want to avoid as best as possible. If you're approaching Snake, if you're jumping you can DI out of the second hit of F-Tilt. Your best bet with an approach would be to bait the Tilts, since most Snakes are going to do a full F-Tilt which allows you to punish. When in doubt, stay within the relative spacing of the Tilt so that you can bait Snake into it. You'll get more safe damage this way.

Stage wise, I'd recommend something such as BattleField. Due to the relatively small size, it'll provide you with platforms to work with, while prevent Snake from getting enough room to set up traps unless he's knocking you off of the stage consistently.

If Snake is pitching a tent and spacing properly, it's going to be 60:40. I don't see this match up as any worse than that. Mario has the tools to avoid most traps with cape, fireball, and fludd.

Berserker. · Nov 27, 2009

And plus, Mario has a pretty bad ground game over all according to the Mario sucks guide while Snake has excellent ground game. Put him up to the air and rack up damage but all Snakes know that we should avoid getting juggled anyway.

JUDGE · Nov 27, 2009

a smart snake won't get juggled so easily guys
he can just do a ff bair which is pretty much a good combo breaker....knockback is to strong => sends you too far away for follow ups
approaching snake is really unsafe.
he can keep us away with ftilt.
dthrow tech chasing is horrible, avoid gettin' grabed
uptilt kills you at around 100% at bf fd and sv
nades aren't that horrible as hippie said
we can reverse cape them or fludd them back or toss a fireball when you see snake is pulling out a new nade
fireball camp is suuper unsafe cuz PS fireballs is so stupid easy
we just end in eating an uptilt

i think this is CLEARLY an 60:40
i think you all agree this MU is too hard for a 55:45 but he isnt a mgw, mk etc. for a 65:35
we do have options against snake
even though gimping snake is by far harder than some of you like to think^^

sry for bad english^^

EDIT: i wouldn't go bf
i mean it's not bad, but if you have to cp him take japes
we can survive his FRESH uptilt til 150% with good DI due to the high vertical celling

-Ran · Nov 27, 2009

I wouldn't take Snake to Japes. If he gets a lead, he can just camp on one of the exterior platforms. You're forced to approach by the air at that point. You're one shield grab away from being down throw tech chased to death.

Javon89 · Nov 27, 2009

The best stage fight Snake would be Frigate Orpheon since his camping is limited and the stage is quite small, the only thing that you have to watch out for is to avoid the upper platform, u-tilt will reach you if Snake is close enough. Also be very patient while fighting this character, try to get in his face and you can combo all you want since he is heavy and a large target. When trying to get in Snake's face put a fireball in front of you then bait him into a grab and get things started.

vato_break · Nov 27, 2009

Frigate will do you more bad than good,i'm pretty if snake is getting kills earlier than usual thats bad so no. Japes? that should always be a automatic ban for mario, one drop in the water and your done and snake can just camp on the platforms and it can be really hard to get him off. If you want to take snake somewhere you can take to him to yoshi's-juggling him is much easier here and it has a higher ceiling so you can survive longer. Any of the neutrals are good but i might take him to sv as you can kinda camp safely from the moving platform.

Inferno3044 · Nov 27, 2009

What about lylat or castle siege?

vato_break · Nov 27, 2009

on lylat im sure snake can control the stage much,much more im not sure about castle though

Matt07 · Nov 27, 2009

Castle Siege is just as bad in my opinion. The first part has plenty of platforms for Snake to work his magic. The second part of the stage is huge. Sure, you might survive that u-tilt, but he has a huge amount of space to work with for camping as well. The last part is kind of a Final Destination. I think it's pretty even match on there but everywhere else he does better then you. So I'd tried to avoid it.

Berserker. · Nov 27, 2009

Also about Castle siege in the last part, you still need to becareful because Snake has enough space to camp and the sloping of the stage can make Snake's grenade roll along. Go to smaller stages like BF or whatever that can CP Snake. This match up is far from even 60:40 Snake since Snake has too good stage control especially on frigrate and Lylat.

Inferno3044 · Nov 28, 2009

It's not more than 60:40. I'm pretty sure that Snake doesn't have enough stage control to destroy us on every stage. Saying something like that just isn't true. Snake does better on some stages, but that's every character. The thing is that we can't be reckless. We have to make sure we land in as safe positions as possible.

Judge firmly believes it's a solid 60:40, but I've seen quite a bit of people (mainly from the Mario's) say its either that or 55:45 Snake. Honestly, I'm not 100% sure which one I go with or which one to put on.

A2ZOMG · Nov 28, 2009

Snake just survives too long and kills too early...

In Balanced Brawl, this is a neutral matchup lololol.

JUDGE · Nov 28, 2009

in my opinion japes is a good cp against snake
he can't c4 recovery anfd his cypher may get under the platforms means auto win
one cyphergrab means dead or even a grab on the edge so that he has to air realase
he will fall in the water before the c4 expodes

just don't fall in the water and set him under pressure
platform controll is all

yeah i think this is a clear 60:40
snake limits too much options of mario for beeing just a SLIGHT disadvantage with 55:45
and i don't think either that he ***** mario so hard for beeing a 65:35 like mgw or mk...
as A2 said :Snake just survives too long and kills too early...
and alone because of the fact that we took snake to the redisscusion means that he can't be a 55:45

Berserker. · Nov 28, 2009

Mario just doesn't have the kill power to kill Snake fast and Snake is just too heavy and Snake has long-ranged, quick and powerful tilts. So it's a serious solid 60:40 Snake. The match up can't be seriously 55:45 Snake only

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Nov 28, 2009

Inferno3044 said:
It's not more than 60:40. I'm pretty sure that Snake doesn't have enough stage control to destroy us on every stage. Saying something like that just isn't true. Snake does better on some stages, but that's every character. The thing is that we can't be reckless. We have to make sure we land in as safe positions as possible.

Judge firmly believes it's a solid 60:40, but I've seen quite a bit of people (mainly from the Mario's) say its either that or 55:45 Snake. Honestly, I'm not 100% sure which one I go with or which one to put on.

Can you just say 60:40 arguable for 55/45 as of right now, some or most of us is saying 60/40, some of us is saying 55/45

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