The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

Matador · Dec 13, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
You don't want to play my G&W. I don't fall for that mentality. ^_^

What I do is I run away and Bucket in places where you will have an extremely difficult time at best punishing this. Never fireball if I can just run offstage. That is the dumbest thing you can do.

There's like...no place where I can throw a fireball where I cannot follow. Seeing as, since you're the G&W, you'd have to be in that path to bucket it, and my spacing is stupid good, I'll be able to reach you. The lag after bucketing is waaaaay too long to not take advantage of.

The mentality thing is a cointoss. I KNOW that you want to hit me with it at some time or another. I just need to know when, and there are a ton of clues. It could be this stock, next stock, maybe even immediately, but once I see you trying to set it up, I make my retreats look like approaches (run forward, shield, then run away. Jump in your direction, cape, jump away...)

Of course, it takes knowledge of the player and must be used at your discretion...but it works for me pretty often.

A2ZOMG said:
True statement. Never whiff anything in front of him and don't let him observe a dodge. Basically impossible to do if he's really good.

Just stay as unpredictable as possible if you're the Mario. Unpredictable while staying rather safe. Like...don't do stupid things like airdodge into him, or upB too often.

A2ZOMG said:
My gameplan is different. I zone your *** off by rushing your down with F-airs and D-tilt and going for the gimp, and I never spam the same move twice in a row, and I punish you whenever you try to F-smash.

Metaknight still is a *****, but Marth really doesn't **** G&W tbh.

Lol, that seems like throwing around priority to me XD. I mean, it's not a BAD tactic, seeing as there's little Mario can do about it, but being predictable is the worst thing you can possibly do in this game. If you consistently randomize your movement and keep me guessing, I'm going to have a hard match.

However, I don't see a G&W player doing that, especially since I know exactly what they want and don't want. They WANT me right outside their spacing range so that they can pressure me without fear of retaliation. They DON'T WANT me inside their range, where my jab cripples their CQC, my SDI -> Nair wrecks bad spacing on multihit attacks, and I can upB out of everything.

This is all player vs player stuff that I'm speaking on, which is stupid to try and argue with because it's subjective and everything...I'm just saying, this is what's going through my head when I wreck Game and Watch players. If you know the basics (Tech the Dthrow, SDI the multihit, limit his recovery, space the Dair, punish bad spacing on his part...), then G&W doesn't even feel like a 60:40. His options limit us, yes, but they're far from insurmountable.

Inferno3044 · Dec 13, 2009

Matt07 said:
Alright, I guess I'll bring up general issues on the match-up (my experiences ), and get opinions on how you handle them.

GnW has always given me trouble on WiFi. I haven't played a Game and Watch offline yet.

But ya, I'm agreeing with A2 on this match-up. You really have to watch his spacing mistakes, which...is pretty hard for a Game and Watch to do. Just the effort you have to put in to punish his mistakes, and bait him with K.O moves is ridiculous!

Offstage, it's hell. He can just f-air you, and your toast if you recover from too low. Your only options are to airdodge, or Cape it on reaction, and both of those can still put you in a bad spot because his f-air will still sourspot you. Always, always keep your second jump, recover high. If he sour spots dsmash us, well for one it sends in a horrible trajectory, forcing us to use our double jump. And unless the Game and Watch makes a really bad mistake we'll make it on.

Second spacing issues...Okay umm all he has to do is b-air, and we're screwed. Unless if we're really close inside of him then our aerials outspeed his, but however he can just always up B, and reset the situation. And keep on using b-air to keep us out, that's also the reason why we can't follow up with anything, or use any strings on him. It's really painful to wrack up damage in this match-up. You'll most likely trade hits with him, but he'll take the least amount of damage.

And here comes the KO'ing part. Well...Game and Watch has plenty of options to K.O us. Fsmash our RCO lag, Up Smash: This move goes through everything we have, is the biggest hitbox I've ever seen in my entire life (Yea...bigger then Snake's u-tilt get @ me!) and it's easy as pie to land. Oh and then there's d-smash. Oh where would I be without it? Well firstly this goes through all of our aerials ROFL! Sends us in a bad trajectory as stated above if sourspotted and kills us at like...90%...very quick, lagless, can spam multiple times. When in doubt GnW, just dsmash us. For us? Well...we could dsmash too but it's fairly easy for him to bucket break, and you will rarely rarely land an fsmash unless he makes a big bobo and whiffs an aerial.

You guys may have already covered some of these points, but I'm just explaining my opinion on why I think Game and Watch is 65:35 or worse for us.

Most of this is very theoretical. You sound like if he does bair, it's impossible to get in. It's a really bad idea because I can definitely hit him even if he does do that. Off stage, your priority is to get back on like you would vs. MK. He can't gimp as hard as MK can. I don't get gimped on a regular basis vs. G&W. Something to remember about his smashes though. Although they are lagless, they are slow. Btw, I use Fsmash on him depending on the situation. If he is using a move with little horizontal range or at least less than our Fsmash, I'm gonna use it if he's at kill percents. For a basic kill move, I'm gonna use Usmash because it's faster and better against him because he is so freaking light.

G&W bair is always SH so why not just FH over it? Pierce wrote this article about vertical spacing. Mainly is talked about how certain attacks are certain heights and they move a certain direction when they do a move. For example. when Peach does a fair, she is descending to the ground because it's a zoning tool and it auto cancels. Another example is that Wario's approach with FH dair because his aerial mobility lets him and you will be able to get through defense and hit. We should use vertical spacing against his bair instead of horizontal because we won't win against his bair when it comes to horizontal spacing.

A2ZOMG said:
My gameplan is different. I zone your *** off by rushing your down with F-airs and D-tilt and going for the gimp, and I never spam the same move twice in a row, and I punish you whenever you try to F-smash.

Metaknight still is a *****, but Marth really doesn't **** G&W tbh.

Once again, just because you zone, doesn't mean we are never gonna hit you.

Marth ***** G&W. His Dtilt destroys his whole ground game and fair destroys his air game. It's like 60:40 or 65:35 Marth.

Big-Omar · Dec 13, 2009

Ok, I think we established that GaW ***** Mario with his priority, take advantage of GaW's bucket lag, be as unpredictable as you can, save your Usmash for the kill, etc etc.

Can we finally establish a ratio for this match up now? I think it HAS to be either 60:40 or 65:35, both in favor of GaW.

Or do we need to discuss the match up further? Because it does seem too simple >_>

BSP · Dec 13, 2009

Inferno3044 said:
Most of this is very theoretical. You sound like if he does bair, it's impossible to get in. It's a really bad idea because I can definitely hit him even if he does do that. Off stage, your priority is to get back on like you would vs. MK. He can't gimp as hard as MK can. I don't get gimped on a regular basis vs. G&W. Something to remember about his smashes though. Although they are lagless, they are slow. Btw, I use Fsmash on him depending on the situation. If he is using a move with little horizontal range or at least less than our Fsmash, I'm gonna use it if he's at kill percents. For a basic kill move, I'm gonna use Usmash because it's faster and better against him because he is so freaking light.

I agree with this. Bair can be SDI'd and GAW can be punished for it. Once people start dong this consistently, he's going to have some problems. I don't think GAW will be gimped mario, unless you get dsmashed off, then you're screwd. His fair is easy to see coming, and a simple cape stall will take care of that (assuming mario has di'd well). His smashes are hard to punish, but they do have that bit of startup lag. It can get frustrating to land a smash as GAW against a good opponent.

Inferno3044 said:
G&W bair is always SH so why not just FH over it? Pierce wrote this article about vertical spacing. Mainly is talked about how certain attacks are certain heights and they move a certain direction when they do a move. For example. when Peach does a fair, she is descending to the ground because it's a zoning tool and it auto cancels. Another example is that Wario's approach with FH dair because his aerial mobility lets him and you will be able to get through defense and hit. We should use vertical spacing against his bair instead of horizontal because we won't win against his bair when it comes to horizontal spacing.

I never thought of this, I should try it.

Inferno3044 said:
Once again, just because you zone, doesn't mean we are never gonna hit you.

QFT. I can't decide a ratio though, it seems in between 60 : 40 and 65 : 35 GAW's favor. can we do 37 : 63 GAW? :laugh:

Novabound · Dec 13, 2009

Matador said:
There's like...no place where I can throw a fireball where I cannot follow. Seeing as, since you're the G&W, you'd have to be in that path to bucket it, and my spacing is stupid good, I'll be able to reach you. The lag after bucketing is waaaaay too long to not take advantage of.

Well, what A2 meant was don't let the fireballs go off the stage. I'm assuming your hopping/full jumping when you fireball. It has an obvious trajectory, and even if you make it bounce off the corner of the stage, GaW can run off the stage, and bucket. If performed right, GaW actually gets a boost from doing it, causing him to actually slide quite far from the ledge. The range at which he absorbs is also ridiculously huge. (Think of you just fireballed the platform on pokemon stadium on the neutral stage. If GaW has his bucket out standing, he will absorb it.) At that point, he's in the air, and in posistion to Fair, or Upb, or Uair, or anything.

When I fight marios, I always insure that I can't be punished for fireballs. I look for them going off the stage, or if you retreat and throw one. If marios are too spammy, I will only bucket when I'm at 0% or something low. I figure 10-20% damage is well worth 1/3 of Mario's stock.
Once I hit 60%, I stop trying to catch fireballs.

Aside from buckets, I don't know what you're truly supposed to do vs Bair : /. I mean, SDI-ing is nice, but we have enough air control to either push into you harder, or even fast fall it to force the final hit to pop you into the air. Which subjects you to further bairs or uairs or nairs. You COULD wait it out, but GaW's up B is truly unpunishable, and he can buffer it out of bair so quickly. I guess cape and punish?

One thing I've found REALLY annoying is how far mario steps back for his fsmash. It's almost as if he dodges first then smashes. I find some of my arieals getting punished by it. Though my Mario experience is limited to about 2 random tournies goers, Sensei, and a friend who doesn't play too much brawl.

A2ZOMG · Dec 13, 2009

Inferno3044 said:
Marth ***** G&W. His Dtilt destroys his whole ground game and fair destroys his air game. It's like 60:40 or 65:35 Marth.

Marth gets ***** by random F-airs. They're just too good at trading blows with Marth in general, and getting offstage or above G&W is very difficult for Marth to deal with. It's no worse than 6/4 Marth on any stage. Marth's D-tilt is punishable on block if he commits to attacks furthermore.

Again, the real problem with G&W is just how he gimps you and how you can't hit him with a kill move most of the time...You literally can't F-smash G&W at all if he knows what he is doing, while he gimps you very easily.

Fullhopping above G&W is a pretty bad idea btw. Look at his options above him, and think again.

I really hate this matchup in general because Mario is forced to run away the entire time and bait spacing mistakes.

Matador · Dec 14, 2009

I still have yet to play a truly great G&W player, just a few good ones. From what I've fought, however, I'm unable to see how this match-up is as bad as 65:35 or even 60:40.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Dec 14, 2009

Matador said:
I still have yet to play a truly great G&W player, just a few good ones. From what I've fought, however, I'm unable to see how this match-up is as bad as 65:35 or even 60:40.

lol this MU is not even, u can scratch that out.

Veggi · Dec 14, 2009

Matador said:
I still have yet to play a truly great G&W player, just a few good ones. From what I've fought, however, I'm unable to see how this match-up is as bad as 65:35 or even 60:40.

G&W has some way to zone us from what I've heard that Mario has a lot of trouble getting around, either I've never seen it used or it just isn't that bad. Fireballs are supposedly not effective against him, although the range that I normally pivot fireball after a bair I've never seen a G&W able to react to with a bucket. He also has a low amount of lag on his moves that Mario is supposed to have a hard time to punish, although I've had good luck with attacking his blindspots or just starting up an attack when I know I'm going to be able to avoid him.

Sometimes I just fireball and then up smash him when he buckets it like what you said earlier.

Maybe I'm just missing something.

Inferno3044 · Dec 14, 2009

Matador said:
I still have yet to play a truly great G&W player, just a few good ones. From what I've fought, however, I'm unable to see how this match-up is as bad as 65:35 or even 60:40.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ said:
lol this MU is not even, u can scratch that out.

I agree with Lil G's statement and part of Matador's. As said, the range thing is a bit of an issue but we can get in like we do against every character that significantly outranges us. His smashes are slow, but lagless. I'm pretty sure you can punish it with something like a shield grab. You can just easily reset the situation back to neutral as well. It's not hard. Aside from all this, the G&W is going down the same reason Wario will go down a bit (though not as much). Wario is currently #3 because at the time people didn't know how to fight his playstyle. It used to be "oh his disjoints are so broken. top tier." People now know how to fight him and he's therefore going down. I do not see this MU as 65:35 now. I see it as 60:40. I'm gonna try again to get some G&W mains here. A2, can you get some?

A2ZOMG · Dec 15, 2009

Most G&W players are pretty lousy at matchups, since all they focus on is the worst ones (MK, Marth, Snake, Diddy). Mario in particular is a pretty obscure matchup for most G&W players.

I happened to play Warpstatus's Mario, and beat him exactly 2/3 of the time in this matchup, so I stand by the ratio 65/35 G&W. Even though Warp technically mains ZSS, he's so much better than me in general that I can't see his Mario being worse than mine at all.

HeroMystic · Dec 15, 2009

Why has there not been any talk about FLUDD?

Inferno3044 · Dec 15, 2009

HeroMystic said:
Why has there not been any talk about FLUDD?

I forgot all about talking about this. Thanks. G&W gets so much lag form FIHL and it's really good against him. His move ends up lasting so long. It's not hard to punish then.

Matt07 · Dec 15, 2009

Thanks, Hero I was going to mention that. This is the one match-up where I can use FLUDD for an opening.

Inferno3044 · Dec 15, 2009

With that said it disproves the theory of "we can outrange you. we win." Honestly though G&W started so overrated. I'm not even sure if he should be in the top 10. His play style isn't that hard to get around anymore.

Matador · Dec 15, 2009

Fludd helps. I just don't use it much. I suppose I should, it does legitimately create openings and screws with spacing.

You guys are gonna need to disregard my bias too. It's overwhelming at times T_T

Edit: I dunno...this just seems like one of those match-ups to me though...one where he has REALLY good amateur options...but once you get pass those and know how to deal with them, he becomes really one-dimensional.

hippiedude92 · Dec 15, 2009

i haven't seen a regular match where mario fully makes use of fludd's usage of screwing up spacing / create openings, or at least against a gaw or to my knowledge so far.

Big-Omar · Dec 15, 2009

Hippie is right. lol
Theoretically, FIHL can screw up bair approaches, but i never seen anyone take advantage of that.

A2ZOMG · Dec 15, 2009

I never mention FLUDD because it never messes me up. The key thing is what are you going to do to him when he doesn't spam? FLUDD also does nothing to his recovery, and only helps it. Besides, if he's focused on ground poking, FLUDD doesn't do anything besides push him back a safe distance.

I do think I'm the only G&W player who actually knows the Mario matchup specifics in and out.

Inferno3044 said:
With that said it disproves the theory of "we can outrange you. we win." Honestly though G&W started so overrated. I'm not even sure if he should be in the top 10. His play style isn't that hard to get around anymore.

Depends on what playstyle he's using. =P

Even today, his metagame is making adjustments...only the Metaknight matchup if any particular matchup really sucks. And the way things are going, Metaknight appears to be carving out his own tier.

FLUDD from my experience does nothing to G&W if he knows the matchup. Generally speaking, G&W should be ground poking a lot more than air poking in this matchup, and the way G&W SHOULD be spacing his aerials in general generally keeps him out of easy punish range from the FLUDD.

HeroMystic · Dec 15, 2009

Man you guys suck. <.<

Veggi · Dec 15, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
Generally speaking, G&W should be ground poking a lot more than air poking in this matchup, and the way G&W SHOULD be spacing his aerials in general generally keeps him out of easy punish range from the FLUDD.

How should he be spacing them?

hippiedude92 · Dec 15, 2009

i promote theorycraft to this thread

/troll

Big-Omar · Dec 15, 2009

hippiedude92 said:
i promote theorycraft to this thread

/troll

This.......

A2ZOMG · Dec 15, 2009

Veggi said:
How should he be spacing them?

If he's retreating stuff safely, you're not going to be in range to punish him if you FLUDD. Also, he should generally wait as late as possible before actually using an aerial in case Mario does a fireball or something else, in which case if he attacks AFTER you FLUDD, it's much harder to successfully hit him.

Which goes back to the point that if he doesn't spam, you can't kill him.

PentaSalia · Dec 15, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
Most G&W players are pretty lousy at matchups, since all they focus on is the worst ones (MK, Marth, Snake, Diddy). Mario in particular is a pretty obscure matchup for most G&W players.

I happened to play Warpstatus's Mario, and beat him exactly 2/3 of the time in this matchup, so I stand by the ratio 65/35 G&W. Even though Warp technically mains ZSS, he's so much better than me in general that I can't see his Mario being worse than mine at all.

this lol
G&W mains only really need to know those 4 MU's so that's all we analyze
Any other MU,we can pretty much do the same old and get away with it lol

anyway,my only good mario experience is from hardgainer which i lost to >.< and hippie
just be patient,Moar B spam ;D

also,wouldn't fludd* be a good idea?(just throwing it out there)

mario's fresh fsmash can kill G&W at around 90,srly,they can't bb it(or at least i can't)(and also assuming they don't DI)

A2ZOMG · Dec 15, 2009

PentaSalia said:
also marios fresh fsmash can kill G&W at around 90,srly,they can't bb it(or at least i can't)(and also assuming they don't DI)

Mario's F-smash should NEVER hit G&W...G&W is more disjointed, and Mario's F-smash is too slow to punish all the stuff G&W has that has only 10 frames of ending lag. That's why I think this is a problematic matchup for Mario. Killing G&W is extremely difficult if he knows what Mario's KO options are.

PentaSalia · Dec 15, 2009

i never said it hits often lol
i just said it kills him early

but like any X character vs G&W match up
you have to learn to bait him in >_>

hippiedude92 · Dec 15, 2009

patience is out of my league sadly

HeroMystic · Dec 15, 2009

PentaSalia said:
also,wouldn't fludd* be a good idea?(just throwing it out there)

FLUDD's the initial reason why 80:20 G&W got debunked.

Inferno3044 · Dec 15, 2009

HeroMystic said:
FLUDD's the initial reason why 80:20 G&W got debunked.

It's not even close to it. I think that G&W wins, just not 65:35. The whole spacing thing won't work forever. That's why I dislike when people go all theory and no facts. Also, most of our moves are quite a bit faster. A read on a move and be punished with Fsmash. We should definitely be able to punish a Usmash if we read it. It comes out on from 22 and has 10 frames of lag. Fsmash comes out on frame 16. So we have enough time. It's not impossible to land it. It just requires a little effort.

60:40 G&W

A2ZOMG · Dec 15, 2009

Inferno3044 said:
It's not even close to it. I think that G&W wins, just not 65:35. The whole spacing thing won't work forever. That's why I dislike when people go all theory and no facts. Also, most of our moves are quite a bit faster. A read on a move and be punished with Fsmash. We should definitely be able to punish a Usmash if we read it. It comes out on from 22 and has 10 frames of lag. Fsmash comes out on frame 16. So we have enough time. It's not impossible to land it. It just requires a little effort.

60:40 G&W

That's reading, which is not reliable at all. And I'm reminding you, I've actually played this matchup. If G&W is playing super conservatively, you can't land this move on reaction at all, and you're more likely to get punished severely for trying. Furthermore, he's usually going to U-smash to punish aerials.

Mario's F-smash comes out the same frame as G&W's D-smash btw, except G&W's D-smash is a LOT less laggy. G&W's F-smash is also too difficult for Mario to punish consistently.

Inferno3044 · Dec 16, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
That's reading, which is not reliable at all. And I'm reminding you, I've actually played this matchup. If G&W is playing super conservatively, you can't land this move on reaction at all, and you're more likely to get punished severely for trying. Furthermore, he's usually going to U-smash to punish aerials.

Mario's F-smash comes out the same frame as G&W's D-smash btw, except G&W's D-smash is a LOT less laggy. G&W's F-smash is also too difficult for Mario to punish consistently.

Reading is definitely reliable. I mean that's how a tech chase works doesn't it (G&W has one btw)? It's even better if you see it coming and you're able to punish in time. His smashes are can be shielded on reaction. His aerials have decent speed with some exceptions like nair which is pretty fast. The only thing on the ground that would give us a hard time is his dtilt. That will only work for so long. Also, I didn't say you can punish consistently. I just said they are punishable. They just don't seem that way because of how little ending lag all his moves have.

hippiedude92 · Dec 16, 2009

A2 means that, if GaW plays defensively, (most Low Tiers USUALLY play by baiting, since that's they're only real option, aka Mario.) it's a bait war, since some of GaW's moves have no real set ups and Mario has to point out spacing erriors.

GaW's smashs are so gey lolz. FSmash covers so much of a SH area.... personally think mario is def better if he has stock lead... if gaw has it.. by a large margin it's done deal esp with bucket braking.

Inferno3044 · Dec 16, 2009

hippiedude92 said:
personally think mario is def better if he has stock lead... if gaw has it.. by a large margin it's done deal esp with bucket braking.

So it's kinda like vs. Falco, but G&W kills you at lower percents but doesn't rack up damage as fast (IMO) and camp you nearly as hard. Also it depends on percentage. If G&W takes the first stock,but is at like 130-140, you can definitely tie that up. I get what you mean though. It's kinda why I think it's 60:40 G&W. I couldn't consider it a real counter, but it's clearly his advantage. I know A2 thinks its 65:35 G&W. Any other opinions?

Big-Omar · Dec 16, 2009

60:40
Never played any real good GaWs, but from my experience, this match up is winnable if you space correctly and bait him out.

A2ZOMG · Dec 16, 2009

Inferno3044 said:
Reading is definitely reliable. I mean that's how a tech chase works doesn't it (G&W has one btw)? It's even better if you see it coming and you're able to punish in time. His smashes are can be shielded on reaction. His aerials have decent speed with some exceptions like nair which is pretty fast. The only thing on the ground that would give us a hard time is his dtilt. That will only work for so long. Also, I didn't say you can punish consistently. I just said they are punishable. They just don't seem that way because of how little ending lag all his moves have.

Both his Jab and D-tilt are extremely gay for Mario to work around, and his Jab cancels into grabs.

Reading can be useful, but the way G&W can play, he can actually be expecting to NEVER be getting hit by a KO move, which is why I consider this matchup a counter. It's too hard to land a KO move realistically if he merely chooses to be conservative, while the only thing G&W needs to do to get a KO is get a gimp.

PentaSalia · Dec 16, 2009

mario's own jab is fast enough that you shouldn't be getting caught by jab into anything. lol

and i think inferno has the right mindset for this MU
ima agree with 40:60 :o

if you manage to get a lead on G&W, this MU is very winnable

Inferno3044 · Dec 16, 2009

PentaSalia said:
mario's own jab is fast enough that you shouldn't be getting caught by jab into anything. lol

and i think inferno has the right mindset for this MU
ima agree with 40:60 :o

if you manage to get a lead on G&W, this MU is very winnable

Thank you. With this, I'm gonna bring G&W to a close.

Anybody wanna rediscuss someone?

Big-Omar · Dec 16, 2009

Discuss Peach cus she gay.

>_>

vato_break · Dec 16, 2009

peach: fireball spam,space,use fludd,bair chains..be patient. Thats it dude upB OoS if she tries to dair you...play safe. She's really hard to gimp unless you spike her. Fsmash doesnt kill till like 110% use upsmash for kills.

also i think mario outcamps peach on this stage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc3aA4-bAF4

60:40 peachs favor.

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