The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

Inferno3044 · Dec 20, 2009

Veggi? A2? I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but can we finish lucario before we go into bowser?

Veggi · Dec 20, 2009

Yeh.

10yehs

A2ZOMG · Dec 20, 2009

I think 57/43 Lucario is the ratio.

There is really nothing else to discuss about that matchup. Everything stated has been correct on both sides.

Veggi · Dec 20, 2009

Veggi said:
I think you might be right, A2ZOMG. I don't think Mario's advantages are large enough to warrant a 65-35 or 60-40 though.

Is it alright if we play on wifi for you to show me how the matchup is supposed to be handled? You play Mario, I'll play Bowser. We'll do some friendlies, obviously not for win ratio because it's wifi and it will just end in being angry at eachother. My disc has some problems with Bowser and gives me a disc error at times if I don't choose Bowser quickly enough and move to the match (it's wierd) so if I leave I'll get back on wifi quickly and try again. If it still doesn't work I'll play around with DK.

10chinchillas

hippiedude92 · Dec 20, 2009

lol veggi, i can play boozer, not that hard to use boozer at all.

i think its 5/5 imo.

Veggi · Dec 21, 2009

But I don't get to see how the matchup is played if its my Mario against your Bowser, haha.

A2ZOMG · Dec 21, 2009

Well, I'll add you. And if you're on tomorrow morning, I should be hosting.

But screw wifi. =/

Veggi · Dec 21, 2009

Yeah, but it beats driving there. Man, you live in California. I didn't notice that before.

DtJ XeroXen · Dec 21, 2009

BOWSA!!!

Too bad I haven't been able to play Sliq yet, (cept for WiFi but XD WiFi) I would be able to tell you guys what's up with the matchup.

Inferno3044 · Dec 22, 2009

Has the theory been tested A2?

Hobobloke · Dec 22, 2009

What's this theory?

Veggi · Dec 22, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
Yeah, I have this theory that Mario outzones Bowser harder than I've ever expected (on top of still winning due to how easily he gimps Bowser). I'm suspecting that Mario wins vs Bowser 6/4 to 65/35 on all stages.

I only tried this strategy on wifi, so I need other opinions of it. What I think Mario can do to Bowser is just repeatedly poke with fireballs and B-airs, and whenever Bowser tries to approach past those pokes, you just Up-B. This strategy in particular works especially well on Battlefield, which is one of Bowser's best stages. While Bowser usually likes using platforms defensively, Mario has his own twist on platform abuse by using them to mix up his landing in case he whiffs an Up-B (which ideally should be very infrequent as you should be observing when Bowser is approaching with attacks).

In theory, I really don't think Bowser has a legitimate counter to the strategy I used if Mario properly Up-Bs on reaction to whatever approach Bowser tries. Bowser is such a huge target that if you see him jump, and he does not airdodge, he WILL get hit by Up-B. With this strategy shutting down most of Bowser's viable strategies and keeping him in a disadvantageous position, you will have a lot more freedom to mix up other forms of offense once you get the rhythm established. Oh and to make things harder for Bowser, his F-tilt is pretty easy to punish with reverse F-smashes.

Next question is how well this strategy works against Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong's approach is also pretty predictable, and he's a huge target.

10characters

B!squick · Dec 22, 2009

Well, if you're going to be that predictable, I'd just use Firebreath. As well, I have no respect for the hit box on Mario's UpB ever since the day I spiked a recovering Mario with Luigi's DTaunt. It was probably the biggest fluke I've ever witnessed, but still, I'd be very confident in my chances against a "just UpB" strategy. Also, SideB grab armor says hi.

Hobobloke · Dec 22, 2009

Mario can't approach without being punished by upb OoS, of course you have fireballs so you don't need to, bowser will most likely walk towards you while powershielding the fireballs and ftilit/grab/klaw/. I don't know how good mario's defensive game is so you'll need to fill me in there.

Killing wise, Bowser is fat and lives fro along time, mario isn't as fat and out of a grab release we can pummel to force a groundbreak and dtilt which will kill quite early due to the power and nice trajectory, alternatively an air release can be followed up with a fair. If a grab isn't feasible bowser can kill with most moves at a reasonable percentage.

DtJ XeroXen · Dec 22, 2009

I love A2's strategy.

I've been using it forever.

Inferno3044 · Dec 22, 2009

Lord Bowser said:
Mario can't approach without being punished by upb OoS, of course you have fireballs so you don't need to, bowser will most likely walk towards you while powershielding the fireballs and ftilit/grab/klaw/. I don't know how good mario's defensive game is so you'll need to fill me in there.

Killing wise, Bowser is fat and lives fro along time, mario isn't as fat and out of a grab release we can pummel to force a groundbreak and dtilt which will kill quite early due to the power and nice trajectory, alternatively an air release can be followed up with a fair. If a grab isn't feasible bowser can kill with most moves at a reasonable percentage.

First of all, we can definitely approach without getting punished by upB OOS in reality. In theory maybe, but not in reality. If we are always committed to our attacks, then you're right that we will get punished. Plus we can punish you with our UpB OOS. It might not be as good as Bowser's but it's still pretty good.

For Mario's defensive/camping game, I like it personally although most people don't use it. Unlike most characters we have the freedom to move easily while shooting our fireballs which has me think that Mario's fireballs is definitely one of the better projectiles in the game. Also we have mixups with them (SH,FH, DH). When you get close we can do things to stop your momentum and get you out. We can use the cape, FLUDD, grab, bair, or Dsmash to keep you out. I can explain each one if you want me to, but now's not a good time.

With kill power I have one thing to say to that. CAPE! Bowser's recovery isn't that good and is easily caped. Just to give a situation here: Mario Dsmashes Bowser off stage. Mario does some off stage bairs. Bowser is forced to use Fortress to recover. Easy cape. Being able to gimp Bowser so easily can really even out the kill power.

DtJ XeroXen · Dec 22, 2009

My question is why would we even approach when we can out-camp the fat turtle? I'm not gonna jump right into your Up-B OoS (mainly because it's obvious you're going to use it.) And I often find myself predicting it easily and punishing. (Via my own up-b OoS because I love it so much.)

Honestly, we can punish anything Bowser has with a Dair/Up-B/Usmash(in some cases)/Dsmash(in some cases) OoS, hell we could probably even pull of a Fsmash on some of his laggier moves. One of their only obvious answers to hiding in your shield is their Koopa Klaw (alongside Koopa Hopping), which is easy enough to punish on its own. (As long as you dodge the Klaw.)

Of course, this is all IMO.

EDIT:

On the other side of the matchup, Bowser would simply be trying to get in and ****, while we keep him out and punish his ending lag, ultimately comboing him. (Especially if we use Dair OoS). As one of my friends Ducky said "I don't like this matchup because I don't like losing 80% off of a Dthrow."

Veggi · Dec 22, 2009

Mario's down throw gets me like 40% at max and that's after a lot of hefty prediction. Dthrow>pivot grab>dthrow>run behind them and punish air dodge or aerial with upsmash>possibly some follow up.

I can't image Bowser taking a whole lot of damage from down throw. This is coming from someone who does ridiculous things out of a dthrow.

B!squick · Dec 22, 2009

Sadly LB, I think Mario's BAir is one of those mystical safe on block moves that legends speak off if you space it properly. I wonder what it's like to have one of those...

humble · Dec 22, 2009

Bowser loses to mario barely at 55-45.

Because.

/elaborate explanation

A2ZOMG · Dec 22, 2009

JayDeth said:
Sadly LB, I think Mario's BAir is one of those mystical safe on block moves that legends speak off if you space it properly. I wonder what it's like to have one of those...

Trufax.

In my matches against Veggi, he almost NEVER landed Up-B out of shield against me. Mario can very easily approach Bowser without getting Up-Bed. Seriously, I can do a lot of stupid stuff like fullhopping it or spacing it at maximum range and retreating, and Bowser literally can't stay in Up-B range.

He also rather rarely got hit by my Up-B, but that was just because he was specifically playing to avoid it LOL.

The way Veggi had to play against me, he usually had to predict attacks and try to outprioritize them.

Veggi · Dec 22, 2009

I wasn't sure if JayDeth's comment was sarcasm or not so I just played it safe and didn't reply.

A2ZOMG · Dec 22, 2009

Lol why be sarcastic on the internet. Internet is SERIOUS BUSINESS.

B!squick · Dec 23, 2009

I was being totally truthful. Bowser doesn't have an approach, sadly, other than Klaw jumping and hoping you don't get hurt too badly by the time you get a chance to attack your opponent.

Hobobloke · Dec 23, 2009

If you want anything useful you should probably beg MrEh to make a post, I've never played a good Mario myself and MrEh cleans up at posting about matchups.

Veggi · Dec 23, 2009

JayDeth said:
I was being totally truthful. Bowser doesn't have an approach, sadly, other than Klaw jumping and hoping you don't get hurt too badly by the time you get a chance to attack your opponent.

There's always...

FLYING FIREBREATH!

Really though, I thought fair was alright?

A2ZOMG · Dec 23, 2009

F-air fits under "hoping you don't get hurt too badly by the time you get a chance to attack your opponent". The way you had to use it against me, it was by predicting attacks.

Big-Omar · Dec 23, 2009

Bowser too slow lol

B!squick · Dec 23, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
F-air fits under "hoping you don't get hurt too badly by the time you get a chance to attack your opponent". The way you had to use it against me, it was by predicting attacks.

Yeah. With FAir it's one of those, you don't have a choice, kind of things. BAir and DAir have too much landing lag, UAir lacks that horizontal direction and NAir is limited by it's range. FAir is Bowser's fastest aerial next to NAir with only an okay range which ends up translating to not good when you factor in Bowser's size.

To be honest, Klaw is Bowser's best aerial. x_x

Hobobloke · Dec 23, 2009

Fair is fairly fast, coming out on frame 8 isn't exactly slow.

It seems the majority of you are on the ol' "He's big, fat, and slow. 70:30 to us" train, and I really grow tired of it.

Veggi · Dec 23, 2009

Almost every character risks getting hit out of their aerial approach moves. Mario does. Bowser has good air speed too and a well spaced fair against a shield is either not punishable or hard to punish.

HeroMystic · Dec 23, 2009

Lord Bowser said:
Fair is fairly fast, coming out on frame 8 isn't exactly slow.

It seems the majority of you are on the ol' "He's big, fat, and slow. 70:30 to us" train, and I really grow tired of it.

Until I fight a good Bowser that isn't plagued by online I usually just say 55:45 Mario, with a debatable 60:40. Bowser definitely doesn't have the advantage but he has some things over us.

Sleek Media · Dec 23, 2009

I'd say 60:40. Bowser's tough, but that first 50% is gonna come easy thanks to Mario's excellent combos. Bowser does have better range, which helps him deal with Mario's speed and agility. The real killer here for Bowser is FLUDD+Cape. Recovery isn't going to be easy.

Inferno3044 · Dec 23, 2009

Lord Bowser said:
Fair is fairly fast, coming out on frame 8 isn't exactly slow.

It seems the majority of you are on the ol' "He's big, fat, and slow. 70:30 to us" train, and I really grow tired of it.

That's not true. Bowser has some things, but Mario has more over Bowser. 70:30 is just not right. 60:40 on the other hand I agree with. Yes he's big and slow, but he also has no safe approaches and we can outcamp him forcing an approach. Also if we approach, Bowser highly predictable. We are gonna attack him what do we think he's gonna do? UpB OOS. Many Bowser's do that to counter and I don't blame them. It's a good move, but so overused. Our OOS options are so good against Bowser (UpB, Dair, bair, etc.). He is easily gimped by us and I think that this is a big issue. If he wasn't so easily gimped, this would be an even MU. Bowser of course has good grab release options, heavy as ****, and is extremely strong. His moves aren't that fast though. At least compared to Mario's that is. There aren't many moves of yours that are safe on block while out bair (our spacing move) is quick and is safe on block.

Kanzaki · Dec 23, 2009

I've never fought a good Bowser offline.

In my last low tier tourny, I took out a Bowser in 2 rounds within the time it took my friend and DSF to finish 1 round >.>

But then again, the word "good" comes into play.

A2ZOMG · Dec 23, 2009

I do think the matchup is either 6/4 or 65/35 in Mario's favor.

Lord Bowser said:
Fair is fairly fast, coming out on frame 8 isn't exactly slow.

It seems the majority of you are on the ol' "He's big, fat, and slow. 70:30 to us" train, and I really grow tired of it.

Bowser's jump startup is garbage, so it actually takes quite long for him to do aerials.

Aerial Klaw is safe after it comes out, which is frame 17. Easy to see coming.

It's not that Bowser is slow. It's that he has a lot of commitment on everything, and his approach is EXTREMELY predictable, and his recovery is one of the worst in the game. He has too many crippling weaknesses to be viable in a conservative metagame. Mario on the other hand is a clearly superior character with better poke options, better pressure, existent camping, and much more consistent punish and KO options. Mario's options to stay safe and control space are too good for Bowser to keep up with if used correctly. Mario outpokes Bowser easily, and does a much better job of punishing his approaches and gimping him. Bowser can make it somewhat a chore for Mario just because he has some attacks with more range and he KOs earlier, but Mario is INFINITELY more consistent on everything.

Sleek Media · Dec 23, 2009

You all seem to think upB is Bowser's only OOS option, but he has more than that, including a very dangerous downB. His attacks aren't that slow, and he doesn't need much to get KOs. Fresh surprise attacks like downA can kill early. Mario's recovery is also terrible. Overall, it's Mario's favor, but you can't simply wreck a good Bowser player. You have to work for it.

Veggi · Dec 23, 2009

The thing is though that fireballs, while being a large factor in the matchup, are not the end of Bowser's approach. They can be powershielded and even if Bowser gets hit by every fireball it still won't do that much damage and Bowser is eventually going to get to Mario. You all seem to forget that Mario can be intercepted (mainly by ftilt and fair) before he can feck with Bowser's shield.

Bowser's dash speed is also a bit above average and his air speed is one of the best. His attack speed, while slow, is not that slow and is faster than Lucario's. Obviously, he has more lag than Lucario though, haha. Bowser is also gains some mobility points from Klaw Hopping. What sucks is his walking speed makes it hard to approach for me.

The Brown Scourge · Dec 23, 2009

Bowzer's moves are actually quite fast. It's the ending lag that plagues him. To whomever it was that mentioned doing an up-b to counter obviously has never played a good Bowzer. That is understandable. We are a dying breed, lol.
Bowzer is the heaviest character in the game.
Bowzer is one of the strongest characters in the game.
Bowzer has more reach than almost everyone in the game.
Bowzer can be easily juggled.
Bowzer can be easily punished shouldmid miss.
Bowzer...that is about it.

The Brown Scourge · Dec 23, 2009

Mario doesn't exactly have the best recovery move in the game. As long as the Bowzer doesn't play predictably then Mario's cape shouldn't prove to be too much of a nuissance. A forward-tilt to edgehog and Mario shouldn't be coming back on stage, lol.

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