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Complete Matchup Discussion: Jigglypuff

KoRoBeNiKi

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KORO#668
Major Edit: It will be much easier for me to use the next posts afterwards for the reasons/stages, so deleting it and then readding everything at the end.

Color index:
Black: horrible for Luigi (30-65 or worse)
Red: moderately bad for Luigi (40-60-45-55 one way)
Green: Even (50-50 or barely 55-45 each way)
Blue: Good for Luigi (55-45 - 60-40)
White: Epic for Luigi (65-35 or better)

Ganondorf:

Ratio: 60-40 Luigi


Link:

Ratio: 55-45 to 60-40 depending on stage
Ratio: 60-40 Luigi

Captain Falcon:

70-30 Luigi

Next Character:

Jigglypuff
 

DTP

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So.....do you wanna take over the main match up thread? :)

EDIT: Let's start from the bottom!


EDIT: OR

I can take discussion from here and transfer it to the main match up thread myself. So basically, we split the work.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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KORO#668
...Lol
someone said random characters and someone else said bottom...lets star then with the bottom.


Ganondorf then....

Both of us are solid killers, Luigi can N-air ganon out of virtually everything. Main thing to say is that Luigi's priority overwhelms. Just be really careful of the pesky down air and up air. Don't down b too often as your asking for a down air. Fireball and back air camp as ganon can do basiclaly nothing to stop it. Edgeguarding is simple, down air it, back air it, or f-air it. Or wait for him to go above the ledge and back air back off.

Go to larger stages or platform stages. Stay away from norfair or any stage that allows ganon to survive too long as his hits will rack up eventually. 65-35 Luigi?
 

A2ZOMG

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Luigi vs Ganon is honestly one of Ganon's better matchups...it's one of few matchups where Ganondorf can actually try to space things that are safe on block (although spotdodging will still make Ganon's life miserable). Luigi's camping also doesn't really threaten Ganon a whole ton because he'll be able to powershield it most of the time, and Jab -> Up-B is blockable. Luigi's edgeguarding is decent, but rarely ever outright gimps, meaning if Ganon avoids F-smash and Up-B a lot, it will probably be a long battle for Luigi.

Ganon outranges with stuff like U-air and B-air (which can be really useful if Luigi stays in the air too long). His D-tilt is also something that can be annoying for Luigi to get around.

If he can buffer Flame Choke -> F-tilt, watch out for that since that **** gimps.

I'd put it at 6/4 Luigi at worst for Ganon.
 

Clai

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Ganondorf doesn't really need to get close to Luigi to damage him, so if Luigi is N-airing Ganon, then Luigi is too close for Ganon's comfort. From what I've experienced when playing Luigis, Ganondorf's best attack for this matchup by far is his B-air. B-air is a great move for Ganon to have because it does a good job of stuffing aerial approaches.

Avoiding Luigi at close quarters is the big issue, because F-smash comes out lightning fast and up-B is a Shoryuken, so Ganondorf is going to make it a spacing battle, and he has help knowing that moves that are normally punishable on block can be used safely (I'm not sure which ones, though). Offstage, don't be too predictable with Tornado recoveries, because Ganondorf loves stomping people below him. Likewise, Ganons should watch out for Luigi's F-air since it has stupid IASA frames and can easily gimp him if he's not using his DI well.

Overall, I'd rate this match as a 6:4 in Weegee's favor. It's an absolutely fun matchup and Luigi has the notation of being one of the manliest characters in Brawl.
 

PK-ow!

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Ganon looooves Luigi's low traction and his bad shield.

Yes, Luigi has **** combos on Ganon (and I mean ****** - you're second only to MK's offstage chasing), but so long as you don't get in for those combos, Ganon can keep you out and even "combo" you.

Our own NAir becomes a nasty setup once your damage is up a bit.


We have a variety of guaranteed choke followups, but no reason we should ever be able to choke if you Do It Right. Only if you use Side-B, or utterly fail at using Cyclone. So just do not use Side-B.


However, in the end, Luigi only approaches the kill range of his Shoryuken, not to mention his Shin Shoryuken in jabs -> Up-B. Ganon has to risk a lot for his own kill moves. He'd have to be dominating the whole match for him to start to break even when he needs to finish the job.


Oh, and he just should not recover against Luigi (or anyone). I bet Luigis can time a DAir spike out of our Up-B. :mad:
 

Clai

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We have a variety of guaranteed choke followups, but no reason we should ever be able to choke if you Do It Right. Only if you use Side-B, or utterly fail at using Cyclone. So just do not use Side-B.
I wouldn't say it that absolutely. As long as we know how to control the stage, we can limit Luigi's options to the point where Flame Choke would be useful. Situational? Yes, but Ganon can hold his own until the opportunity arrives.

Flame Choke is definately possible, just don't rely on it.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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KORO#668
so do people think its 60-40 Luigi.
Post stages, for both characters.
Stages to ban, best neutrals, etc.
I haven't played enough good ganons outside of Wi-Fail vs Zhouten and Ray Kalm ages ago.
 

Clai

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Ganondorf's best neutral: Final Destination. Luigi can probably do some nasty stuff on platforms, so it's best to have Ganon in a long stage so that he can avoid Luigi's comboes easier. If you ban FD, Ganon would probably like Smashville as an alternative option.

Luigi's best neutral: Yoshi's Island. I hate this stage with a passion as Ganondorf, especially if it's against a character with as good of a CQC game as Luigi. Luigi can just pressure him and **** him all day long, Ganondorf doesn't have the room to do anything. I, in particular, almost always ban Yoshi's Island, so your next best neutral is Lylat (if it's a neutral).

Counterpicks: Nothing particular comes to mind, just keep note that Ganondorf wants long stages so he doesn't get zoned as easy, and Luigi wants stages with small areas so that he can trap Ganondorf into huge amounts of damage/death.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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KORO#668
ok...if anyone has any other posts, Ill update this thread with the next character on Monday.
 

napZzz

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why wouldn't you do it in order of his worst to easiest so the useful stuff gets posted first??....
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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KORO#668
why wouldn't you do it in order of his worst to easiest so the useful stuff gets posted first??....
...I don't really understand this but....I'll try to explain

I picked the bottom tier up so that we could finally get through matchups. It will take forever once we get up to MK or such.

Also...as this post, Ganondorf discussion has ended...Lol

60-40 Luigi overall, next character is Link
 

TreK

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I don't get it either, usually people do the hard matchups or common ones first, because they will be the most useful in tourneys :V
Luigi ***** all low tiered wharacters except Lucas ._.
 

Scabe

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I believe the Luigi vs Link matchup is pretty even. I play a friend who's a good Luigi player so I have some knowledge in this matchup.

I'll try and write a big matchup analysis when I have some time (I doubt I'll get round to it) also I'll save some replays of my friend and I playing this matchup, so it'll be good as a reference. It may take a while to find someone to upload those replays though :urg:

Just some questions, what are Luigi's best ways to gimp? Is he a good gimper?
 

Rizen

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Why do you care about the Link match up? Since you do, Link/Luigi is pretty even like Scabe said. We Links like our distance. For you guys the match is about getting close and juggling Link in the air. And gimping, of course. There's not much else.
 

hippiedude92

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55:45 luigi on platforms

5/5 flat stages give or take

luigi ps everything, link should go aggro camping with alot of zair spacing

once luigi stays inside, he'll stay for a while, link's spaced jab and his frame 5 dsmash is the general distance he wants

links probably expect a typical piss off post like " oh once link is offstage he loses a stock and gets gimped so easily! or if link DIs well he won't be getting gimped easily"

link's options when knocked off stage is reduced greatly (obv has/doesnt secondjump)

oh i play m4ge all the time so i has exp kthx
 

Yonder

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All i can really contribute is that zair is suuuch a pain to get around for Luigi, staying above and getting in quickly before the zair has time to react is your best bet to avoid the zair, Link's best move in this matchup.
 

ndayday

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Well really, you're better off asking AiB like Afro said already. Like I said in the VM I left you, they can haz the Triforce of WISDOM.

I really don't have much experience with Luigi myself, just a few friendlies. All I could really deduce is that like always, Link > combo'd = not good. **** him offstage and in the air when he does something dumb and doesn't keep his space. When you get in close, watch out for jab and zair. Your best bet is to space yourself vertically so you can come down on him and then pop him up into the air for a combo/gimp.

/inexperience
 

ScAtt77

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I've have played a few decent Links before. :O

- I haven't tried this yet, but I think that a d-tilted Fsmash may work better in this matchup than an U-tilted Fsmash for killing purposes. Link has a stupid amount of resistance towards gravity, while his poor recovery can be gimped easier because of the lower angle on it.
- Ducking Link's z-air gives you a little more time to react to it.
-This rarely happens, but Link's boomerang + Weegee's traction= a faster approach if done correctly.
-spaced back-airs tend to beat out most of his aerials.
 

Icyo

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If I'm not mistaken...a common Link would easily whiplash a down tilted f-smash.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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KORO#668
the only time I played a good Link offline was in low tiers...so I am not used to an offline aspect...compared to facing people like Legan and such oline.

Luigi's best tools for gimping is back air. Link's f-smash and z-air are a pain to get bye. This is one of the few matchups I struggle to kill, mostly due to Link's wtf good momentum cancels. Luigi want's a down throw or an up tilt to start something. Link has to space and camp. I also personally like Luigi's down smash in this matchup, it seems quite useful vs heavy character.
Luigi's fireballs stay even with boomerang I think + a bunch of other moves while virtually all of our aerials goes even with the arrows. Use the slight lag at the end of z-airs and approach. Its the main way I have approached Link and it seems to work fine. Also, this is one of the few matchups where Luigi does better on a non-vertical kill stage, mostly because Link can also kill way too quickly. Go to BF, YI, or PS1/LC. Ban FD, strike Smashville. I personally am a big fan of Frigate in this matchup. The switching of the stage forces Link to approach. Link can also down air Luigi out of down b, so be careful recovering.

Also, ban Norfair or Brinstar if the tournament allows it...this stage is a pain vs characters like Link who will be more difficult to gimp

Pick small stages or platforms...as said.

Its probably 55-45 Luigi, mostly since Luigi has overall more stages to exploit. The matchup is probably 60-40 the other way on FD and 60-40 us on BF and Frigate.
 

Scabe

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If I'm not mistaken...a common Link would easily whiplash a down tilted f-smash.
It's actually quite hard to whiplash, since it depends on having to change your DI by holding down, the angle the move sends Link, and fast reflexes. So I doubt that Link could whiplash the down tilted F-smash of Luigi.

What KoRoBeNiKi said seems pretty correct.

If Luigi recovers low with his Down B recovery, Link's can predict that and use D-air.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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KORO#668
It's actually quite hard to whiplash, since it depends on having to change your DI by holding down, the angle the move sends Link, and fast reflexes. So I doubt that Link could whiplash the down tilted F-smash of Luigi.

What KoRoBeNiKi said seems pretty correct.

If Luigi recovers low with his Down B recovery, Link's can predict that and use D-air.
are you fine with what I said..

Does anyone has any input..ROFL
 

BSP

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I'd say this is 55 : 45 for Luigi, unless you're on a flat stage, then it's even. Link has the tools to keep Luigi at bay. He has arrows, boomerang, bombs, and that stupid z air. The first three aren't that bad, but that z air is really annoying, coupled with the fact that link has no lag from landing with it. Link's sword is also a problem since it'll beat some of Luigi's aerials if spaced properly (maybe not bair). Luigi has to fight to get close and try to start racking damage on link, while Link has to keep luigi away. With good DI, link won't be getting gimped easily, and he won't die early either. I'd go with 55: 45 Luigi, argueable for 50 : 50.
 

Scabe

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Well, I normally suck at these kinds of things. So I'm sorry I haven't really added much. :(

Try asking, the Link mains at AiB in their question thread about what they think of the matchup. http://allisbrawl.com/forum/forum.aspx?fid=22

Once you get some input from them, then I say it would be good to move on. Since it's starting to die out.

You guys wouldn't mind, if one day you moved on to another matchup and I suddenly post something on the Link vs Luigi matchup?
 
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okay scabe I have to disagree with you a little when it comes to whiplashing.
Im a pretty consistent whiplasher and I must say that as long as the trajectory of the move allows you to whiplash you just have to react, and if you can react with correct DI then you can add some input too, like a Airdodge and a press on the attack button. Whiplashing is best served as an antidote against low trajectory moves which otherwise would wreck link as a character. otherwise, the link main in todays metagame DIs up to get a lot of height and with that a lot of time to pull and shoot/ throw projectiles and /or attack the gimper with fair or coming down from above to sheild his recovery witha dair or FF airdodge through and zedge.

link can also avoid the hardhitting hitbox of say your nair and exploit the weaker to get above you by starting to airdodge and then right after your nair have commen out zair to cancel the Airdodge and get hit. This is a bit situational though and requires good timing. He can also use this to airdodge through one of your attacks and then tether the stage, canceling the ending lag from the airdodge. Then we have a bag of super situational tricks in tha bag too XD. total momentum stop, dair bouncing, bombjump, wallbombing, I probably missed hlaf of that stuff. its not really implemented in the general link mains game yet though(some link mains have a few speialities).

Anyways, if link gets below stage height in his recovery he should be doomed and if you get him offstage one hit with anything that hits him away kills him. You might have noticed that links recovery sucks lengthwise(it has lots of tricks and mindgames though, as mentioned above). You will probably be able to gimp him, and its gimping link you should go for,

Link onstage arent bad, hurting projectiles, large hitboxes, 8 or more(depending on how you count) good kill moves, projectile locking combos(bombstool, BAL and ReturnRangBlast(pretty new not that much used actually, anyways the link main throws a bomb at you when you ride the rang and this puts you in tumbling state from the bombblast but instead of being sent into to the air it drags you towards link, guess if you will eat another hit, guess if it is charged XD)). You will probably eat a lot of projectiles, its half links metagame after all(the other half is DI well), so count with that.

When you are close to link combing him will probably be easy for you, but mind that if you are at higher percentages out of nowhere a dair can come out to catch you as you are juggling link, the link main wants to keep you off and keep you under control in some way I think, since combing luigi isnt that easy, we can hit at your sheild as much as we want if I understood everything correct so if its not already a part of your general metagame, dodging or just spacing correctly(lol of course spacing is a part of your metagame XD) will be a very important way to avoid getting hit, links fsmash, dtilt, dsmash, ftilt, fair second hit and dair all give good sheild knockback so you will just slide.

Luigi kills good, killing us will probably not be that much of a problem, compared to many other characters.

and then we has gotzors our beloved zair, it combos, it spaces, got great range, set knockback and damage(two hits, 4%+6%), links third fastest move when it comes to startup, autocanceling. It allows us to hold a bomb in hand, we can add invincibility frames to it by airdodging first(most link mains zair by pressing sheild + attack to always get the option to get these invincibility frames if needed, since the zair can cancel the airdodge anytime instantly). oh but you are short, so its not that effective against you. XD, still its really useful, it can kill an aerial aproach or be links aproach move against you, or link can use the hitbox to just hold you off as he retreats. to get around the zair power sheilding is the best option, but hopefully the link will use diffrent timings. Anyways, its not imba, its links most broken move, but not a mach tornado(for sure lol).

I dunno anything about how you might use your luigicopter(or what that down b move is called).


anyways its probably tilted a little in luigis favor, luigi got good offstage game, is short(**** you), is good at damage racking and can kill easily. Though luigi have a bit of a range problem and light alo he dont have something to move link to the edge and set up the gimp, so he have to work for it more than say D3 or gaw(dsmash sucks, you never know how you should DI it). say somewhere around 60:40 55:45 luigi probs.
 

Mechagoomba

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Luigi wins this at least 60:40. I don't know him in and out, but when I get him on random it just feels like I have to get in close to Link and it's basically free damage. All of Luigi's aerials splendid in this matchup, particularly bair. Double bair or bair to uair leads to so many combos on Link at low percents, it's ridiculous. Something like, bair -> uair -> jab -> utilt -> utilt -> dair or something like that is hard to get out of if the Link doesn't expect it. Plus, Luigi has plenty of KO power with fsmash and nair, and Link isn't used to dying at low percents, contrary to popular thought.

Link needs to play a stay-away-from-me game almost all the time, and shielding gets through his spam pretty easily. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Luigi generally approaches from the air I believe. In that case, expect a lot of zair and bombs. Link can't jab lock Luigi (too slippery) but I've heard that Luigi can sometimes have a hard time punishing aggressiveness due to his traction. If this is the case, Link will have to constantly pressure Luigi with projectiles. Basically, playing like KirinBlaze and just being relentless on the projectiles. Link's utilt will probably stop aerial approaches as well, but I don't have enough Luigi experience to comment about that. Second hit of fair too. Once Luigi is in KO range, dsmash, the situational dair, and fsmash are probably Link's best KO moves. Luigi's momentum cancel is decent, whenever I play him against one of the Links I usually live to about 140-150%, so Link will probably be spamming til you get to that percent.

Offstage, Luigi's recovery is pretty good, and Link's is... do I need to say? Now, keep in mind, Link mains are the best at DI. Like... literally. As in, we feel disappointed if we only live to 150%, since we're used to at least 170%. Now, again, your fsmash is stupid strong, so it'll kill Link a solid 30% earlier than usual, but still, any of the other moves, with the exception of possibly nair, won't do much to help KO Link. But when it comes to gimping, Link, after having DI'd correctly, will chuck stuff at you and then attempt to get to the ledge. Your offstage gimping moves should probably be reverse uair, like the Ganons, maybe bair, fair, or dair. Not nair because it hits upwards, and Link mains have learned through experience to purposely get hit by moves with an upwards trajectory just to help his recovery.

There's probably some stuff that's wrong in here, feel free to correct me.

from sasook at AiB since he cant post himself
"Btw, hey Koro, long time no chat. I dunno if you remember me, from SBR a long time back. How've you been" from sasook
 

pulse131

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well, generally when im against weegee, i tend to use less zair, and more moves that involve my boot, so to speak. most of the time i stay away from the edge when hes on his way up with down b, or think he is, link turrible recovery is easly gimps this way. since luigi tends to slide quite a bit, he can sometimes be right outside links grab. links a good punisher, with a semi decent ground game, try hitting him up, and avoiding dair, he can be gimped that way as well with fair spam, with fireballs, dair and uair, when link goes to recovery, remember just one quick bair is usually all you need. look out for dair when going straight up with down b, or bair/nair when simply jumping to safety. keep the game relatively close combat, luigi wins there easily.

stagewise, i would think luigi has a better chance of good combos at battlefield or other stages with platforms. avoid f dest and of course norfair. this is all jsut from experience, i dont play many weegees but thats my input. i used him in melee, but ya, dont really no much about the new and slightly tainted luigi.
 

AfroTwist ShadowPie

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Since I'm permabanned, here's my input. Someone C/P it over there.

Luigi wins this at least 60:40. I don't know him in and out, but when I get him on random it just feels like I have to get in close to Link and it's basically free damage. All of Luigi's aerials splendid in this matchup, particularly bair. Double bair or bair to uair leads to so many combos on Link at low percents, it's ridiculous. Something like, bair -> uair -> jab -> utilt -> utilt -> dair or something like that is hard to get out of if the Link doesn't expect it. Plus, Luigi has plenty of KO power with fsmash and nair, and Link isn't used to dying at low percents, contrary to popular thought.

Link needs to play a stay-away-from-me game almost all the time, and shielding gets through his spam pretty easily. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Luigi generally approaches from the air I believe. In that case, expect a lot of zair and bombs. Link can't jab lock Luigi (too slippery) but I've heard that Luigi can sometimes have a hard time punishing aggressiveness due to his traction. If this is the case, Link will have to constantly pressure Luigi with projectiles. Basically, playing like KirinBlaze and just being relentless on the projectiles. Link's utilt will probably stop aerial approaches as well, but I don't have enough Luigi experience to comment about that. Second hit of fair too. Once Luigi is in KO range, dsmash, the situational dair, and fsmash are probably Link's best KO moves. Luigi's momentum cancel is decent, whenever I play him against one of the Links I usually live to about 140-150%, so Link will probably be spamming til you get to that percent.

Offstage, Luigi's recovery is pretty good, and Link's is... do I need to say? Now, keep in mind, Link mains are the best at DI. Like... literally. As in, we feel disappointed if we only live to 150%, since we're used to at least 170%. Now, again, your fsmash is stupid strong, so it'll kill Link a solid 30% earlier than usual, but still, any of the other moves, with the exception of possibly nair, won't do much to help KO Link. But when it comes to gimping, Link, after having DI'd correctly, will chuck stuff at you and then attempt to get to the ledge. Your offstage gimping moves should probably be reverse uair, like the Ganons, maybe bair, fair, or dair. Not nair because it hits upwards, and Link mains have learned through experience to purposely get hit by moves with an upwards trajectory just to help his recovery.

There's probably some stuff that's wrong in here, feel free to correct me.
>.>
<.<

Weegee haz duh upB and Taunt spiek. 100:2 Weegee's favour.
 
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