Matchup Re-Discussion: Olimar

KayLo! · Dec 7, 2009

Pikachu vs. Olimar
( Link to central matchup thread. )

Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 42:58 in Olimar's favor
Can we CG him?: No

Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181840
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 45:55 in Olimar's favor, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=245052

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
Olimar Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225377

Summary:

In progress.

Legendary Pikachu · Dec 7, 2009

Yay! First post!

I say damage control is a MUST HAVE in this matchup.

I say d-smash on a landing olimar ***** most of the time (especially if it sends him offstage... just know their usual DI pattern).

Pro-level thunder wall locks out olimar's whistle>up-b and any recovery options at least 50% of the time. If they whistle/airdodge the rod, then if you space right (slightly underneath olimar in front of his recoverey path), the BOOM will hit olimar and send him flying.

D-throw techchase grab/combo mindgame the crap out of olimar.

Jump out of d-throw pseudo-chaingrabs/techchases, and then if necessary QaC to a safe landing spot.

Learn Olimar's sign language... lol.

Kill yellow pikmin (try to do it with a move you do not want diminished)

Know that olimar has one of the LONGEST rolls in the game distance-wise compared to most of the cast.

Know that olimar can pivot grab and repeatedly grab your landings about 95% of the time ^_^ (QaC your landing)

Know that Olimar's grab has a point blank blind spot--d-smash will best grab at this range (barely longer than luigi firepunch distance... but still nice to know).

Know that Olimar's (from the edge) will roll, f-air, airdodge, or whistle back on stage. If you are the ledge they'll most likely drop a lil longer and then u-air through stage (which is telegraphed and you may be able punish with stagespike or t-jolt screwup of some kind sometimes ^_^).

Lylat cruise is normally an olimar neutral stage counterpick. If you don't like playing there, ban it. You should try getting used to making most use of platforms on stages to avoid all the pikmin and dodge/jump around u-smash and u-air.

Olimar has a killing u-throw at like 150+ or something similar with purple pikmin, and a mindgamed b-throw that may kill at high damage.

Yellow pikmin are for u-smash/grab setups for more combo's into u-air or another u-smash (have most hitstun); Red pikmin are for smashes and are usually b-throws or f-throws; white are for grabs and pikmin toss (forward-b); blue are for harder smashes and killing throws; purple are for penetrating/anti-projectile pikmin tosses which are most effective in recovering and purples are also used for killing throws and gimping smashes.

PZ · Dec 7, 2009

Adding on to what LDPK said i would watch out for his boost pivot grab and dsmash.
Dsmash is fast and powerful and for most people like me aka cant see those tiny midgitsyou'll have a lot of trouble.
Boost pivot grab covers like 1/4 to 1/2 of FD. O_o **** that a lot of range. Again its hard to see it for people like and im pretty much blind at night so winning against at olimar for me is almost impossible. :dizzy:

Anway thats what i say for his ground game but fmsash is predictable somehow but upsmash is unpredictable.

PUNK9 · Dec 7, 2009

Alright I know a thing or too about fighting Olimar's

I'v gotten some adive from Fearless(Best Oli in FL) And from Draconoa44(Crew Mate)

Basicly thise is the summery of the Pikmin

Red-Best or airels
Blue- Best Grab Range, Back throw kill.
Purple- Strongest. Worse Range, Up throw kills EARLY
White- Weakest, Only good for throwing and clingy, And pummleing in a grab.
Yellow- (Pisses me off the most), Disjointed Hitboxes. GOES THOGH ****ING PIKACHU'S ELECRTIC ATTACKS. (F.smash, D,Smash. D,air, F,Air T-tolt, Thunder.) So if you have one of those ****** on you, Just N-air, That's what I doo.

Now What Oli, is going to do.

1. Grab's Grab's Grab's. He is going to abuse his amazing grab range, with Shield Grabs and Pivot Grabs. Keep in the air, And out of range,

2. Camp you. He is going to use his amazing camping abilities. His Camping abilities are far better than Pikachu's, DO NOT try to camp him, Just a t-jolt here any there.

3. Spam Smashes. Honestly, I can't really tell the differece between his grab anamation, and his F-smash Anamation. I would recommend when he's doing one of those, Just spot dogde, That way, Ether Way you'll be safe.

4. GET OLI OFF STAGE. This is probley the most Important part of this match-up. GET HIM OFF STAGE, N-air, F-smash, D-tilt. D-smash. If you;re at the ledge right when you throw him off,(say with b-throw) Use an un-charged skull bash off stage. This will put you in the "perfect" spot to gimp Oli.

Now Oli will try anyhting possibley to get back on stage. Down B, To get super aomor, Up-air if you're edge hogging him, everything, Watch out for all of it.

Killing, Just Gimp of get him with a smash or N-air. Those are the best ways for me to kill Oli, Up-smash is one of the best, Comes out fast, and Oli is a very light Charater. Up-smash should kill around 120-130%.

I strongly Belive The Pika-Oli Match-up is one of the hardest ones for Pikachu.
Any other tipps anyone?

Fino · Dec 7, 2009

Legendary Pikachu said:
I say d-smash on a landing olimar ***** most of the time (especially if it sends him offstage... just know their usual DI pattern).

Pro-level thunder wall locks out olimar's whistle>up-b and any recovery options at least 50% of the time. If they whistle/airdodge the rod, then if you space right (slightly underneath olimar in front of his recoverey path), the BOOM will hit olimar and send him flying.

D-throw techchase grab/combo mindgame the crap out of olimar.

Know that olimar can pivot grab and repeatedly grab your landings about 95% of the time ^_^ (QaC your landing)

Olimar has a killing u-throw at like 150+ or something similar with purple pikmin, and a mindgamed b-throw that may kill at high damage.

Yellow pikmin are for u-smash/grab setups for more combo's into u-air or another u-smash (have most hitstun); Red pikmin are for smashes and are usually b-throws or f-throws; white are for grabs and pikmin toss (forward-b); blue are for harder smashes and killing throws; purple are for penetrating/anti-projectile pikmin tosses which are most effective in recovering and purples are also used for killing throws and gimping smashes.

(-) Spaced fairs/dairs will beat out the dsmash option. Also note, olimar is very floaty, so if you plan to dsmash his landing, you will have to be very precise and accurate about it. Also, due to his floatyness, it makes it a LOT easier to get out of multi-hit attacks - it is possible, just from holding right when landing, that he will get out after the first hit (he'll grab / c-stick from there).
(-)I don't see this thunder thing working, but if you want to pseudo replicate something with me on wifi (/wrist) or something like that, I'd be glad to give input
(-)Most pikachu's I've played just fthrow + usmash (only works under ~8% with buffer) and then juggle from there. Dthrow seems like a bad choice, because with the highly predictable options from dthrow, you're just asking to be whistle-nair'd out of anything you try.
(-)Know that olimar doesn't have grab armor - send out a tshock, fair and land with an attack, aerial dodge into the ground and use something... if you have a hitbox out when olimar tries to grab, you will hit him out of the grab before he can do anything about it. Best case scenario, olimar pulls the attack into himself
(-)Olimar's throws are weak compared to smashes. His purple usmash will kill pikachu under 80% with moderate DI (fresh)
(-)I don't understand the whole chart thing... it's kind of pointless / you got a lot of it wrong. Olimar won't be f/bthrowing much... dthrow and uthrow are what we can combo out of, and I'm actually one of the few olimars who actually uses the fthrow / bthrow to get people off stage to take advantage of olimar's edgeguarding gay. Reds are powerhouse aerials. Everything else you said just tells me you don't know even the simplest olimar things... *facepalm*

PUNK9 said:
Red-Best or airels
Blue- Best Grab Range, Back throw kill.
Purple- Strongest. Worse Range, Up throw kills EARLY
White- Weakest, Only good for throwing and clingy, And pummleing in a grab.
Yellow- (Pisses me off the most), Disjointed Hitboxes. GOES THOGH ****ING PIKACHU'S ELECRTIC ATTACKS. (F.smash, D,Smash. D,air, F,Air T-tolt, Thunder.) So if you have one of those ****** on you, Just N-air, That's what I doo.

Now What Oli, is going to do.

3. Spam Smashes. Honestly, I can't really tell the differece between his grab anamation, and his F-smash Anamation. I would recommend when he's doing one of those, Just spot dogde, That way, Ether Way you'll be safe.

4. GET OLI OFF STAGE. This is probley the most Important part of this match-up. GET HIM OFF STAGE, N-air, F-smash, D-tilt. D-smash. If you;re at the ledge right when you throw him off,(say with b-throw) Use an un-charged skull bash off stage. This will put you in the "perfect" spot to gimp Oli.

Any other tipps anyone?

(-)purple usmash kills at 1/2 the % purple uthrow is... I don't know what people are making a big deal about the uthrow. His purple usmash also has a hitbox roughly the size of DDD. Think... snakes utilt... but with more knockback... and able to be charged
(-)Pro-tip: Olimar's fsmash is when he puts his left foot forward and hit left hand out, Olimar's grab is when he puts his right foot out and right hand out (note, his left foot also raises so that the tip of his to is perpendicular to the ground). Just look at the shoes :D
(-)Do not spot dodge his fsmash, the hit box outlasts your spot dodge (when spaced) even if you spot dodge frame perfect. The weak part of the hitbox also combos into grabs (yay grabs)
(-)What is this... I don't even. dsmash to get him off stage...? skull bash for gimp positioning...? What drugs are you on, and can I have some?

Just replying right now... I don't feel like writing a match-up synopsis... telling people what's wrong/pointing in the right direction is a lot easier right now ^^;

~Fino

Noa. · Dec 7, 2009

A lot of this is just reiteration of what Fino said, but it's good for emphasis.

Legendary Pikachu said:
Yay! First post!

I say damage control is a MUST HAVE in this matchup.

I say d-smash on a landing olimar ***** most of the time (especially if it sends him offstage... just know their usual DI pattern).

Pro-level thunder wall locks out olimar's whistle>up-b and any recovery options at least 50% of the time. If they whistle/airdodge the rod, then if you space right (slightly underneath olimar in front of his recoverey path), the BOOM will hit olimar and send him flying.

D-throw techchase grab/combo mindgame the crap out of olimar.

Jump out of d-throw pseudo-chaingrabs/techchases, and then if necessary QaC to a safe landing spot.

Learn Olimar's sign language... lol.

Kill yellow pikmin (try to do it with a move you do not want diminished)

Know that olimar has one of the LONGEST rolls in the game distance-wise compared to most of the cast.

Know that olimar can pivot grab and repeatedly grab your landings about 95% of the time ^_^ (QaC your landing)

Know that Olimar's grab has a point blank blind spot--d-smash will best grab at this range (barely longer than luigi firepunch distance... but still nice to know).

Know that Olimar's (from the edge) will roll, f-air, airdodge, or whistle back on stage. If you are the ledge they'll most likely drop a lil longer and then u-air through stage (which is telegraphed and you may be able punish with stagespike or t-jolt screwup of some kind sometimes ^_^).

Lylat cruise is normally an olimar neutral stage counterpick. If you don't like playing there, ban it. You should try getting used to making most use of platforms on stages to avoid all the pikmin and dodge/jump around u-smash and u-air.

Olimar has a killing u-throw at like 150+ or something similar with purple pikmin, and a mindgamed b-throw that may kill at high damage.

Yellow pikmin are for u-smash/grab setups for more combo's into u-air or another u-smash (have most hitstun); Red pikmin are for smashes and are usually b-throws or f-throws; white are for grabs and pikmin toss (forward-b); blue are for harder smashes and killing throws; purple are for penetrating/anti-projectile pikmin tosses which are most effective in recovering and purples are also used for killing throws and gimping smashes.

The thundering thing really won't work too often. Yes, maybe once every few matches, but it's not exactly I would cite without mentioning the situation for it's usefulness doesn't appear too often. Oli can get around it pretty easily and make it safely back to the ledge.

Dthrow is meh. Fthrow and bthrow overshadow it in this matchup by far. Good for the occasional mixup.

Olimar has a mediocore roll at best, and I would consider it bad. Coming from an ex-G&W main mind you.

Lylat is not a usual counterpick or prefered neutral for Oli. It isnt' bad by any means but Oli would prefer other stages such as FD in this matchup.

In terms of the info about the pikmin, red isn't for bthrow/fthrow. They're actually the worst throws after white iirc. Blues kill just as well as reds in terms of smashes, and are completely outclassed by purples.

Everything else I mostly agreed with. I'm kinda iffy about the QAC, but as long as it's only to retreat, it's fine in this matchup.

PUNK9 said:
Alright I know a thing or too about fighting Olimar's

I'v gotten some adive from Fearless(Best Oli in FL) And from Draconoa44(Crew Mate)

Basicly thise is the summery of the Pikmin

Red-Best or airels
Blue- Best Grab Range, Back throw kill.
Purple- Strongest. Worse Range, Up throw kills EARLY
White- Weakest, Only good for throwing and clingy, And pummleing in a grab.
Yellow- (Pisses me off the most), Disjointed Hitboxes. GOES THOGH ****ING PIKACHU'S ELECRTIC ATTACKS. (F.smash, D,Smash. D,air, F,Air T-tolt, Thunder.) So if you have one of those ****** on you, Just N-air, That's what I doo.

Now What Oli, is going to do.

1. Grab's Grab's Grab's. He is going to abuse his amazing grab range, with Shield Grabs and Pivot Grabs. Keep in the air, And out of range,

2. Camp you. He is going to use his amazing camping abilities. His Camping abilities are far better than Pikachu's, DO NOT try to camp him, Just a t-jolt here any there.

3. Spam Smashes. Honestly, I can't really tell the differece between his grab anamation, and his F-smash Anamation. I would recommend when he's doing one of those, Just spot dogde, That way, Ether Way you'll be safe.

4. GET OLI OFF STAGE. This is probley the most Important part of this match-up. GET HIM OFF STAGE, N-air, F-smash, D-tilt. D-smash. If you;re at the ledge right when you throw him off,(say with b-throw) Use an un-charged skull bash off stage. This will put you in the "perfect" spot to gimp Oli.

Now Oli will try anyhting possibley to get back on stage. Down B, To get super aomor, Up-air if you're edge hogging him, everything, Watch out for all of it.

Killing, Just Gimp of get him with a smash or N-air. Those are the best ways for me to kill Oli, Up-smash is one of the best, Comes out fast, and Oli is a very light Charater. Up-smash should kill around 120-130%.

I strongly Belive The Pika-Oli Match-up is one of the hardest ones for Pikachu.
Any other tipps anyone?

You should never mention Purple uthrow before purple usmash. It's so much more common. I rarely KO you with an uthrow right? It's mostly from usmash.

Spotdodging is bad if the Oli is spaced correctly, as both grab and fsmash beat spotdodge at the correct range.

Usmash is not a good way to kill Oli at all. It requires you to approach on the ground, which isn't what you want to do in this matchup. Nair and gimps are much more prominent, and usmash kills only happen when you catch Oli landing.

Finolimar said:
(-) Spaced fairs/dairs will beat out the dsmash option. Also note, olimar is very floaty, so if you plan to dsmash his landing, you will have to be very precise and accurate about it. Also, due to his floatyness, it makes it a LOT easier to get out of multi-hit attacks - it is possible, just from holding right when landing, that he will get out after the first hit (he'll grab / c-stick from there).
(-)I don't see this thunder thing working, but if you want to pseudo replicate something with me on wifi (/wrist) or something like that, I'd be glad to give input
(-)Most pikachu's I've played just fthrow + usmash (only works under ~8% with buffer) and then juggle from there. Dthrow seems like a bad choice, because with the highly predictable options from dthrow, you're just asking to be whistle-nair'd out of anything you try.
(-)Know that olimar doesn't have grab armor - send out a tshock, fair and land with an attack, aerial dodge into the ground and use something... if you have a hitbox out when olimar tries to grab, you will hit him out of the grab before he can do anything about it. Best case scenario, olimar pulls the attack into himself
(-)Olimar's throws are weak compared to smashes. His purple usmash will kill pikachu under 80% with moderate DI (fresh)
(-)I don't understand the whole chart thing... it's kind of pointless / you got a lot of it wrong. Olimar won't be f/bthrowing much... dthrow and uthrow are what we can combo out of, and I'm actually one of the few olimars who actually uses the fthrow / bthrow to get people off stage to take advantage of olimar's edgeguarding gay. Reds are powerhouse aerials. Everything else you said just tells me you don't know even the simplest olimar things... *facepalm*

(-)purple usmash kills at 1/2 the % purple uthrow is... I don't know what people are making a big deal about the uthrow. His purple usmash also has a hitbox roughly the size of DDD. Think... snakes utilt... but with more knockback... and able to be charged
(-)Pro-tip: Olimar's fsmash is when he puts his left foot forward and hit left hand out, Olimar's grab is when he puts his right foot out and right hand out (note, his left foot also raises so that the tip of his to is perpendicular to the ground). Just look at the shoes :D
(-)Do not spot dodge his fsmash, the hit box outlasts your spot dodge (when spaced) even if you spot dodge frame perfect. The weak part of the hitbox also combos into grabs (yay grabs)
(-)What is this... I don't even. dsmash to get him off stage...? skull bash for gimp positioning...? What drugs are you on, and can I have some?

Just replying right now... I don't feel like writing a match-up synopsis... telling people what's wrong/pointing in the right direction is a lot easier right now ^^;

~Fino

I agree with basically all you said.

The skull bash thing. I told Punk a while ago that Hilt posted that forever odd reason, when he had played Anther, Anther always skull bashed offstage and it happened to put him in a favorable position.

KayLo! · Dec 7, 2009

@LDPK: I've seen you bring up Olimar's roll as a positive for him a few times, and I'm always kind of.... confused as to why you'd say that. IIRC, his roll is pretty slow and predictable.... you can punish it on reaction.

Having dealt with Pika's mediocre roll and Zelda's kick *** one, whenever I play Olimar, his roll kinda makes me go

.

EDIT: Where did you read that it's one of the longest?

PUNK9 · Dec 7, 2009

Draconoa44 said:
A lot of this is just reiteration of what Fino said, but it's good for emphasis.

The thundering thing really won't work too often. Yes, maybe once every few matches, but it's not exactly I would cite without mentioning the situation for it's usefulness doesn't appear too often. Oli can get around it pretty easily and make it safely back to the ledge.

Dthrow is meh. Fthrow and bthrow overshadow it in this matchup by far. Good for the occasional mixup.

Olimar has a mediocore roll at best, and I would consider it bad. Coming from an ex-G&W main mind you.

Lylat is not a usual counterpick or prefered neutral for Oli. It isnt' bad by any means but Oli would prefer other stages such as FD in this matchup.

In terms of the info about the pikmin, red isn't for bthrow/fthrow. They're actually the worst throws after white iirc. Blues kill just as well as reds in terms of smashes, and are completely outclassed by purples.

Everything else I mostly agreed with. I'm kinda iffy about the QAC, but as long as it's only to retreat, it's fine in this matchup.

You should never mention Purple uthrow before purple usmash. It's so much more common. I rarely KO you with an uthrow right? It's mostly from usmash.

Spotdodging is bad if the Oli is spaced correctly, as both grab and fsmash beat spotdodge at the correct range.

Usmash is not a good way to kill Oli at all. It requires you to approach on the ground, which isn't what you want to do in this matchup. Nair and gimps are much more prominent, and usmash kills only happen when you catch Oli landing.

I agree with basically all you said.

The skull bash thing. I told Punk a while ago that Hilt posted that forever odd reason, when he had played Anther, Anther always skull bashed offstage and it happened to put him in a favorable position.

I can't get anything right when I'm talking to you can I Angel? -__-'

Legendary Pikachu · Dec 8, 2009

KayLo! said:
EDIT: Where did you read that it's one of the longest?

I guess, i sort of reference it from pikachu's distance--but then again i forgot where I heard it. Mostly likely wrong tho (in retrospect)... how's the other high tiers roll distance? Anyways, I feel that i get killed by u-throws a lot more often than u-smash. Can purple u-smash be 'cancelled' or overcome by aerials? Cuz i feel that usmash can be cancelled or clashed most of the time if it is timed right. After getting a feel for that, u-smash seems to feel not as threatening (but still very threatening).

As for what the olimar mains said, we appreciate the comments and reviews. That comment about not know much about olimars simple things sort of hurt (i mean, you could have worded it a different way at least--tis a friendly discussion). I've based most of my experience against NC-echo, KillerSoS, and Plasmapikmin.

Apparently there's a lot of things you guys mention about pika that WONT work. What stuff specifically DO WORK against Olimar?

I guess i just play wierd then. I do tend to mindgame often so the stuff I mentioned may be more situational than matchup contrinbution. If I face more other olimars, i'll get back with more refined stuff then. How many of you olimars have consistenly got beaten by pikachus in particular? Just curious.

Noa. · Dec 8, 2009

Don't worry LDPK, it's not like most of it was wrong or anything. And some Oli's do play that way, but for the most part usmash kills happen more often than throw kills in the current metagame. If you have great DI, blue bthrow won't kill until 140 or so, and purple uthrow until 120. Fino may have ravaged your posts and insulted you a couple of times, but he does that to everyone, so don't take it personally. Not that I necessarily condone that style of posting.

Yeah, Oli's moves have pretty much no priority whatsoever. Your nair will beat usmash, as will your fair I'm pretty sure. Purple uthrow is hard to land since purple grab is slow and short in comparison to the other colors. Most purple grabs I land are from shieldgrabbing, so just be more careful in terms of that if you don't want to get grabbed.

I would say that Pika should be play somewhere at mid distance. He should through an occasional tjolt, and just wait for an opening. Pika should be ready to adapt at any moment, whether Oli approaches, throws a purple, or he leaves an opening. You must take advantage of any fault in Oli's wall and get in. In close range Oli is much more vulnerable and there should be two goals you have; either get Oli offstage to gimp, or get him in the air to juggle.

Btw, whatever I didn't talk about in my earlier post in regards to your earlier post means I agreed with it and thought it worked.

gallax · Dec 8, 2009

olimars roll is terrible. lol. just for a little matchup tidbit, snakes loves grabbing oli cuz when he rolls its so easy to get another grab on him cuz its so short(out of dthrow) and easy to react to.

and olimar shouldnt be rolling that much anyways.

PZ · Dec 8, 2009

Olimar is 1 of the best chars on the game. His only problems are his recovery(like snake) and rolling but ppl stop rolling lately.
READ THIS!
There is a thread about rolling on nhotspot.net
If you wanna check it out copy paste and look for the STOP ROLLING! forum on super smash bros forums.
The site is down for repairs i think but it might e up a few hours later.

KayLo! · Dec 8, 2009

gallax said:
just for a little matchup tidbit, snakes loves grabbing oli cuz when he rolls its so easy to get another grab on him cuz its so short(out of dthrow) and easy to react to.

Yeah, that's how I knew Oli's roll was garb.... because he gets absolutely ***** by Snake's dthrow. @LDPK: It's all good, though, just make sure to double check before you throw out stats like that.

EDIT: @I should've clarified in this post that I meant his tech roll, after reading Draco's post. ;;

As for general MU advice vs. Olimar, I can't help much since AndyG quit Brawl forever ago, and Dotcom stopped playing until January for (I think) school and other stuff. I haven't played a good Olimar in over 2 months.

I do agree that mid-range play is best. Stay outside of his pivot grab/fsmash range and be vigilant about reacting to any openings he gives you. Use tjolt with caution to create opportunities.

One tip I do have: Sometimes, if you need to land a kill or are having a ***** of a time getting inside, it's better to forget about detatching pikmin and just rush in to take advantage of his pikmin throw cooldown. They do give you damage over time, but it's likely not as much as you think (unless you let them chill there all day)..... the trade will be in your favor if you get him into the air (usmash/dthrow/uthrow), nair off the pikmin, then juggle & punish his landings.

Depends how far away you are, of course. Pikmin Throw isn't that laggy, but Pika is fast enough to take advantage at mid-distance.

Overall, just CP stages with moderate platforms, don't go to FD/Frigate/RC, and don't get grabbed. I like PS1 in this matchup, but you gotta be careful on any stage with walls since he can lock with fsmash pretty easily.

Noa. · Dec 8, 2009

gallax said:
olimars roll is terrible. lol. just for a little matchup tidbit, snakes loves grabbing oli cuz when he rolls its so easy to get another grab on him cuz its so short(out of dthrow) and easy to react to.

and olimar shouldnt be rolling that much anyways.

A normal roll and roll from landing are different differences. Take ROB for example. His ground roll is piss poor, worse than Oli's. But his normal roll is certainly one of the better ones.

Oli's normal roll is longer than his grounded one. Still sucks though.

Fino · Dec 8, 2009

Legendary Pikachu said:
Anyways, I feel that i get killed by u-throws a lot more often than u-smash. Can purple u-smash be 'cancelled' or overcome by aerials? Cuz i feel that usmash can be cancelled or clashed most of the time if it is timed right. After getting a feel for that, u-smash seems to feel not as threatening (but still very threatening).

Apparently there's a lot of things you guys mention about pika that WONT work. What stuff specifically DO WORK against Olimar?

How many of you olimars have consistenly got beaten by pikachus in particular? Just curious.

(-) fair beats out usmash, unless it's a perfect spaced yellow (I say that because you can still beat it out when you're close).
(-) the thing that gets me most about pikachu is fair approaches and uair juggles... that uair just so fast @.@
(-) i don't get beaten by pikachus consistently, but that's because I used to play the MU daily with stealth. Anther remains to be the only one to take a set off me, and that was back in january... I got some revenge in march... since then I haven't played him ;-;

Draconoa44 said:
hai

KayLo! said:
One tip I do have: Sometimes, if you need to land a kill or are having a ***** of a time getting inside, it's better to forget about detatching pikmin and just rush in to take advantage of his pikmin throw cooldown. They do give you damage over time, but it's likely not as much as you think (unless you let them chill there all day)..... the trade will be in your favor if you get him into the air (usmash/dthrow/uthrow), nair off the pikmin, then juggle & punish his landings.

Overall, just CP stages with moderate platforms, don't go to FD/Frigate/RC, and don't get grabbed. I like PS1 in this matchup, but you gotta be careful on any stage with walls since he can lock with fsmash pretty easily.

(-) Also, think of it this way - pikmin do less latch attack in respect to how much damage you already have. If you're in definite kill percent, question if it's even worth knocking them off (sometimes they'll just do one hit and fall off).
(-) Kaylo is legit.... I feel I've done work here *looks at bold parts*

~Fino

Anther · Dec 8, 2009

Naw cuz, you better always take the pikmin off. The only time it's worth it is if you're going for a grab, otherwise you're going to be moving way slower with pikachu because you're going to be freezing all over the place from your move connecting with a pikmin. At least that's my take, the slowdown from hitting the pikmin off usually results in me getting upsmashed or grabbed because it took too long to reach the ground. Plus olimar has like no lag from throwing pikmin x.x.

KayLo! · Dec 8, 2009

Anther said:
The only time it's worth it is if you're going for a grab

That's.... pretty much what I said, lol. A grab (dthrow/uthrow to get him in the air, dthrow preferably) or a hyphen usmash if you're close enough, though it'll usually be a grab.

EDIT: And before anybody misinterprets, it's a situational thing. I didn't say you should always leave pikmin on..... usually, it's better to get them off quickly. But it can work if you're being walled and can't find another way in.

PUNK9 · Dec 8, 2009

One thing that I found out playing Draco today after school was that, While facing Oli. QaC AWAY from him, Only use it to retreat. Oli can punish that thing like omg lol.

Now, One hting that kinda struck me by surprise while I was facing Draco, I had a Yellow Pikmin on me, I just left it there. (probelly didn't notice or something xD) And I SH<FF F-air.< d-smash. And he shielded it. But he dropped his sheild after the first like 3 hit's from the d-smash, It was becuase of the yellow Pikmin, Making the hitbox, last longer.

Now If you use that set of attacks And you're playing agastst a very campy Oli, Get a yellow on on you. and do itt. (now not all the time, but just to mix stuff up) Should throw them a surprise theree.

Now that whole d-throw tech chase thing, I tried it, Didn't really work. At low percents say around 0-20ish, Just f-throw<Up-smash. More damage. Now if you know for a fact that the Oli player knows you are going to do that.(they can jump out of range of Pika's Up-smash after the f-throw near 20%.) A mix-up might be to d-throw and N-air them, Or D-throw U-tilt,<U-tilt<N-air, or something like that. But the F-throw < Up-smash Is most reliable.

EDGE HOGGING IS YOU'RE BEST FRIEND IN THIS MATCH-UP.
Today, I RARLEY, got a kill by just hitting him out of the bounders. About 80% of all my kills were from Edge Hogging him, after I sent him off stage.

With how close you should be with facing Oli, Yeah, I would agree with Draco, Mid-Range is about rightt. Just out of range if his Grabs, Get in close when he ether makes a mistake, or there is an opening. just like a quick jab, Or F-tilt, or (depends on the size of the opening or screw-up) F-smash.

Hi-fin (how ever you spell it lol) is really good in the match-up just For you're info.

I'll be posting more about his match-up when knowledge comes xD.

-Punk-

KayLo! · Dec 8, 2009

I would disagree with letting yellows stay attached to you -- simply because if you fair > dsmash, it'll lag both moves and still be stuck on you. The lag only gives it more frames to damage you and more time for the Olimar to shieldgrab you.

If you're gonna let any pikmin stay on you (and yellows/whites are the two kinds I always knock off ASAP), you should be within mid-range so that you can rush in and grab/hyphen usmash. Approaching aerially is a bad idea since, as Anther pointed out, you'll lag and therefore be open to punishment.

It's nice and all that the dsmash still hit him, but the trade doesn't seem worth it to me.

PUNK9 · Dec 8, 2009

KayLo! said:
I would disagree with letting yellows stay attached to you -- simply because if you fair > dsmash, it'll lag both moves and still be stuck on you. The lag only gives it more frames to damage you and more time for the Olimar to shieldgrab you.

If you're gonna let any pikmin stay on you (and yellows/whites are the two kinds I always knock off ASAP), you should be within mid-range so that you can rush in and grab/hyphen usmash. Approaching aerially is a bad idea since, as Anther pointed out, you'll lag and therefore be open to punishment.

It's nice and all that the dsmash still hit him, but the trade doesn't seem worth it to me.

I mean I wouldnt like give that out for adive, but it's just something to know. It was useful to me, MAybe it'll be useful to someone eles.
Yeah, Don't approch with Airels, He WILL punish it. Badly, You will regect you did that.

Also, one thing I learned which I think is just common sense, but sheild the WHOLE attack, When Oli used like is N-air, and U-tilt on me, I'd sheild like half of it. But yeah just saying xD

-Punk-

Noa. · Dec 8, 2009

Fino meant that at percents past KO range, knocking off pikmin doesn't become such a heavy priority as before. What's a couple more percents gonna mean when you have 150%? Sure it makes you slower so you should definitely still do it, just isn't as important as before.

PUNK9 · Dec 8, 2009

Draconoa44 said:
Fino meant that at percents past KO range, knocking off pikmin doesn't become such a heavy priority as before. What's a couple more percents gonna mean when you have 150%? Sure it makes you slower so you should definitely still do it, just isn't as important as before.

Angel GET YOUR ****ING *** OFF THE PIKACHU BOARDS!!
lol I'm just kidding Angell :]

We really appericate you and Fino Telling us what we said that was incorrect.

Now we Pika's must use this knowledge to gain control of this match-up, Even tho, it's one of Pikachu's hardest xD

One more thingg,
Pika's DO NOT ROLL AROUND OLI, He will punish with d-smash, common sense yes, but we all make stupid mistakes. BEtter yet, DONT ROLL xD

But yeah Fino, Draco, Thanks :]

-Punk-

Fino · Dec 8, 2009

I have a feeling the third to last post punk made was exactly what I said... but in purple text -_-''

Also, I thought I mentioned it before (I looked back and didn't sorry)... yeah... if you know the lag on your moves form having a pikmin attached to them abuse it. Don't know how many times stealth just charged a fsmash and I went in to shield grab punish, and I dropped my shield only to have it still hit me <.<
All pikmin lag your attacks, the yellows just lag the electric ones continuously without falling off.
iirc, a latched pikmin does one latch-hit every 30 frames, if you have a hitbox out when the pikmin hits you, it won't do damage... or something like that, I forget exactly ^^;

~Fino

KayLo! · Dec 8, 2009

Pikmin are too ****ing complicated, lol.

PUNK9 · Dec 9, 2009

KayLo! said:
Pikmin are too ****ing complicated, lol.

You got that right KayLo xD.

So glitchy xD

Noa. · Dec 9, 2009

You should check the pikmin research thread. Soooooo many little details to pikmin.

PUNK9 · Dec 9, 2009

Draconoa44 said:
You should check the pikmin research thread. Soooooo many little details to pikmin.

So many details, xD.
I WANNA KNOW WHY THEY GROW FLOWERS!! Even tho me and you already had the disscustion, I think there's something about the flowers. >.>

Fino · Dec 9, 2009

KayLo! said:
Pikmin are too ****ing complicated, lol.

Only if you think about it too much. Otherwise fairly simple:
(1) Pull from ground
(2) Throw at bad guy
***profit***
Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHqr815MEQo

~Fino

KayLo! · Dec 9, 2009

I mean, that's how I play my crap Olimar, but you gotta admit it's a liiiiiiiittle more than that. Just a tad. =P

What do you guys think of the ratio? 42:58 in Oli's favor still sound good?

Also, I'd like to hear more about edgeguarding against Olimar since it seems as though most people are saying gimping is the way to go.

@Fino/Draco/other Olis: What would you say Olimar's worst stage is?

DUB · Dec 9, 2009

Did I read correctly that a FF'd Fair by Pikachu will go through Oli's Up Smash ( non yellow ) ?

My main focus in this matchup is what can I do to get inside Oli's range. Its harder with Pikachu then most others I feel. I can only Air Dodge in so much to avoid getting a hefty punish for it. Since I can't outcamp, I resort to mid-range zoning and try to provoke Oli to leave the ground or some other exploitable action. Which is the problem..... I feel like we should try to compile a list of effective approaches/ways to break through his defense.

EDIT: Someone may have to correct me but doesn't Olimar have an increased chance to get certain colors of Pikmin on certain stages? If so, what stages increase the % he plucks a yellow?

Noa. · Dec 9, 2009

Oli has a slight advantage over Pika. Pika's who know the matchup do tons of damage once they get in. But since Pika has so much trouble getting in, it's a slight advantage for Oli.

A good Pika stage would be... a stage where it's easy to stay at mid range and potentially retreat occasionally.

KayLo! · Dec 9, 2009

Yeah, but what's Olimar's worst stage in general? x.o

o-Serin-o · Dec 9, 2009

Rainbow Cruise IIRC.

KayLo! · Dec 9, 2009

o-Serin-o said:
Rainbow Cruise IIRC.

Good try, but I doubt it. At the very least, it's not nearly as bad as people make it out to be, and considering what I've seen some Olis do there..... I wouldn't think it's their worst.

Noa. · Dec 9, 2009

Depends on the matchup. Pika should never take him to Frigate. We get more yellows there. The same on lylat. Brinstar's weird for Oli, but I think it's bad for pika too? In stage counterpicks you should focus more on your strengths than Oli's weaknesses in this matchup.

Ussi · Dec 9, 2009

Jungle Japes works well against olimar... works for Ike mains

KayLo! · Dec 9, 2009

Oh, well, Japes and Norfair aren't legal here, soooo~ at least for me, I need more conservative choices. x.x

Ussi · Dec 9, 2009

Japes got banned in NJ/PA? Seriously how long have I been gone o.o (9 months I know >_>)

KayLo! · Dec 9, 2009

Pretty much anything non-conventional is banned. Chibo also banned MK at the biweeklies...... don't even get me started. -_-

At KTAR (North Jersey tourney this past Sunday), a lot of extra stages like Japes, Pictochat, and Luigi's were legal, but that was out of the ordinary.

Anyways. Back to Olimar!

PUNK9 · Dec 9, 2009

Draconoa44 said:
Oli has a slight advantage over Pika. Pika's who know the matchup do tons of damage once they get in. But since Pika has so much trouble getting in, it's a slight advantage for Oli.

A good Pika stage would be... a stage where it's easy to stay at mid range and potentially retreat occasionally.

Way to actually name a stage

I like facing Oli's at Battle feild, FD, and SV,

On SV. For some reason the moving platform helps.

On BF the platforms also help.

FD. so I can get the hell away from him, with Likw QaC or something to go all the way accross the stage.

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