Matchup Re-Discussion: Diddy Kong

KayLo! · Dec 7, 2009

Pikachu vs. Diddy Kong
( Link to central matchup thread. )

Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 42:58 in Diddy's favor
Can we CG him?: No

Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188155
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 45:55 in Diddy's favor, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=252619

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
Diddy Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239185

Summary:

In progress.

(C)ome(B)ack(K)id · Dec 7, 2009

To play against diddy kong you have to use his own bananas...it helps TONS if you use pika's sick glide toss into usmash...another thing is to grab and use dthrow-->utilt-->upsmash works everytime at the beginning of each of diddys stocks.

If your a QACer try not to use it alot when the bananas are out cuz then its just a slippery mess and you just get punished hard..>_<

another thing is to try approaching with jolts if you do this while diddys bananas are out then its a for sure hit to him because he'll try and go for his bananas...then as you hit with the jolt try to go for a grab since theres somewhat stun on diddy.

its kinda of difficult to gimp a diddy player since he pretty much has 2 recover options(depending on where he's at)...pretty much if he trys to over B back then try to get under him so he doesnt grab you and uair him into nair to keep him away from the ledge and then when he up B's then thats when you go to the edge or try to nair him again if possible untill he's far out enough that you can grab the edge before he does(if thats hes only option to go for the ledge) another then is to grab the ledge and let go real fast and then thunder it helps somewhat it stalls him to get back since its a wall of lighting...^^v

well thats all i can think of at the moment...hope it helps..^_^v

Legendary Pikachu · Dec 7, 2009

Depends on the skill level of Diddy Kong.

While a do agree with CBK above, chances of getting owned even by a GOOD diddy kong are still high if you throw the nanners BACK AT HIM. Master diddy's know like 13+ ways of recatching thier stuff. As a person who's faced not just one but MANY diddy's and Toon Links of varying skill levels, the best bet for me is to continuously throw the nanners UP. That way, the bananas will take EONS to dissappear cuz they are not grounded, and since they are your possession, they'll counter anything diddy does. Depending on the screen and stage, the bananas cannot be seen until its too late (its so much harder to telegraph and catch an item successfully by MOST people if the banana is falling down OFFSCREEN and a intense fight is going on). Also, for Pikachu a full hope retreating d-air or f-air or b-air is quite safe (even again diddy's f-air) if you space right, and pika catches the falling banana safely (since it is your possession, you don't have to worry about perfectly sweetspotting the regrab without nanner hitting you). They will HAVE to wait LONGER until the nanner disappear (t-jolt spam them while catching and throwing nanners up ^_^), or melee you without nanner support, or risk being ABOVE you in order to reclaim banana support (free licking ^_^).

Next to the stategy above, if the diddy rushes foward, shielding the first nanner and jump-n-air out-of-shield (while catching nanner) is the next successful thing i can do. Pika can also t-jolt or QaC on the way back down if the situation calls for it while holding the banana.

Trading trips with T-jolts are sometimes good too. Since most diddy's shuffle and throw forwards anyways, correct me if i am wrong but nanner damage is less than t-jolt damage i believe. If you trade a trip and LAND the t-jolt, you can get out of trip and have damage lead in every case.

That's what i think off the top of my head. Also thunderboom is good against diddy's so long as you are NOT under them (d-air...), since side-b even if it grabs you, the rod part with force diddy to release you. If the boom happens then thats one stock almost immediately gone.

(C)ome(B)ack(K)id · Dec 7, 2009

well said LDPK and im pretty sure t-jolt does more then bananas...^_^v another good thing i can think of is always try to get diddy in the air cuz he is kinda useless without his bananas so just keep him up there i wana say nair beats all of diddys aerials but im not 100% sure..

KayLo! · Dec 8, 2009

More input, more input!

This is the MU I do the absolute worst in..... so badly, in fact, that I'm thinking of picking up another character exclusively for Diddy, although I'd really like to continue using Pika.

TreK · Dec 8, 2009

Pick up Luigi. Diddys will hate you and I'll love you <3

I'll follow this in case I get to play against blad again next month, he must be angry I randomly beat him so he will use his **** face D=

All I can say is play gayer than the Diddy, otherwise it just won't work because Diddy can counter about everything Pika has, afaik. If you get lucky enough to steal a nana, do not waste it by throwing it back at diddy, it will NEVER work against good diddies (yup, never.). Dribble it or throw it up, or spam a few B moves, aerials or dtilts.
Learn to use instant throws as a defensive technique, it could be really good with Pikachu (you can find it in our guide I guess if you didn't know about that AT).

Just so I know, what do you usually CP against Diddies and why ?

Hobs · Dec 8, 2009

An alternative to immediately throwing the naner (up, sideways, whatever) is to hold on to it and camp. Olimars do it so well I just die, and it probably works for Pika too (although not as well).

KayLo! · Dec 8, 2009

Hobs said:
An alternative to immediately throwing the naner (up, sideways, whatever) is to hold on to it and camp. Olimars do it so well I just die, and it probably works for Pika too (although not as well).

Eh, depends on the stage. It does work, but tjolt is fairly easy to perfect shield and has a ton of cooldown, so straight up camping won't cut it for very long unless you're on a big stage like FD or Halberd where you have room to run away a lot.

@Teneban: Luigi is a good suggestion. I'm also thinking about Peach and Marth, who would cover Olimar as well (another bad MU for Pika, though I do much better vs. him than I do vs. Diddy).

For stage CPs, I immediately take Diddy to PS1 if he doesn't ban it. If he does, I go with RC (but tbh I haven't played on that stage in forever, lol), Lylat, or whatever I'm feeling at the moment..... sometimes Frigate or Castle Siege.

Hobs · Dec 8, 2009

KayLo! said:
Eh, depends on the stage. It does work, but tjolt is fairly easy to perfect shield and has a ton of cooldown, so straight up camping won't cut it for very long unless you're on a big stage like FD or Halberd where you have room to run away a lot.

Well yeah, you can't really camp the WHOLE time (unless your Olimar). I should have mentioned that. The main lesson is to steal those naners. Diddy is a Green Lantern. Naners are his power ring. The longer you stall out him getting his hands on one, the better.

DUB · Dec 8, 2009

KayLo! said:
Eh, depends on the stage. It does work, but tjolt is fairly easy to perfect shield and has a ton of cooldown, so straight up camping won't cut it for very long unless you're on a big stage like FD or Halberd where you have room to run away a lot.

@Teneban: Luigi is a good suggestion. I'm also thinking about Peach and Marth, who would cover Olimar as well (another bad MU for Pika, though I do much better vs. him than I do vs. Diddy).

For stage CPs, I immediately take Diddy to PS1 if he doesn't ban it. If he does, I go with RC (but tbh I haven't played on that stage in forever, lol), Lylat, or whatever I'm feeling at the moment..... sometimes Frigate or Castle Siege.

If you were going to pick a character to use against Diddy I would suggest Marth just because of how his matchups are. He can handle bananas a lot better then most of the cast. Familiarize yourself with the matchup more and it should be doable with Pikachu.

Dekar173 · Dec 8, 2009

Random tips on recovering-

Be careful about using skullbash to recover, Diddy's bair outprioritizes it.

DO NOT be predictable with your upB (like always upBing at the same angle if you're a certain distance from the ledge, etc.) as Diddy can dair to spike you out of QAC.

Random tips against Diddy-

SH > AD catches bananas so long as you've got the timing down for it

QACing isn't bad at all, as was stated by someone else, as long as (once again) you're not being predictable, it's a good damage racker and allows for kill opportunities with nair.

Diddy's jab cancels tjolt, so it's not really that great of a projectile for doing damage, for SET UPS it's amazing, so just remember that (don't trip over bananas on your follow-ups!)

careful about grounded shield pressure if Diddy has a naner in hand, naners have a hitbox when thrown oos after 3 frames (busted!)

tips in general-

dsmash is mega easy to DI out of

momentum cancel with sideB!

mix it up!

KayLo! · Dec 9, 2009

What about stages? Obviously, we gotta ban FD, but what're some good CP stages vs. Diddy?

Also lemme know how you guys feel about the current ratio..... right now, it's 42:58 in Diddy's favor. Sound good, or does anyone disagree?

DUB · Dec 9, 2009

KayLo! said:
What about stages? Obviously, we gotta ban FD, but what're some good CP stages vs. Diddy?

Also lemme know how you guys feel about the current ratio..... right now, it's 42:58 in Diddy's favor. Sound good, or does anyone disagree?

If legal in your area, Norfair is decent CP. Your not exactly shutting down Diddy's banana game by doing this, more like forcing a new play style. Most Diddys try to control the bottom center of the stage with aerials and the occasional naner. I feel like Pikachu is mobile enough to move around this stage and get underneath Diddy. Also, I've been able to make some nice Thunder Walls against the Lava on this stage.

I'm comfortable with naners as Pikachu being a Diddy main so I don't mind a little flat open space. My CP v. Diddy is Halberd. Up-tilt/U-air are his only kill moves off the top and they will still not kill you before 110. On the other hand, your vertical killers are monstrous here. T-jolts go around the top platform and can hit Diddy if he is not crouching under the middle platform. The moving part of the stage is small. This will allow you to keep pressure up Diddy and keeping him from respawning naners. You can QAC through the stage for a more diverse recovery.

Also, Pikachus item throw is pretty slow. It feels like Diddy throws atleast 3x as fast as Pikachu. If you are both holding a naner and you hit his shield, chances are your going to catch his (3 frame item toss) naner OoS before you can finish.

Razek · Dec 10, 2009

I have played GDX a lot so I have a lil input. It is hard to get GDX to not sand bag at times though.

I tend to just throw the nanners off if i get them because they always just regrab the thing back and it's just annoying. That way when he has to pull new ones I can at least try to get the free hit. You can CG him to like 25-30% if you can buffer it. Jolts work well as long as you use them carefully. Otherwise just watch out for his fresh downsmash and try to to get tripped. Think the match up is about 45 55 for in diddys favor =/. Only because he can be so safe when trying to kill you. Other then that use your stuff better then he uses his. Big spacing and patience battle here.

I do not agree with QaC aginst diddy players however. When you QaC your hitbox becomes one with the planet. Meaning it's huge. And that can cause you to trip or get pegged. This is not a character you want to play recklessly. Also, if the diddy player knows,and they they shield the QaC then they get a free up air. This is not a fight you want to get hasty with, so make QaC a time to time thing unless your 100% sure it is safe. If you stay smart this fight isn't soooo bad. His recovery isn't too hot and if you are safe and patient he will have troubles killing you.

~~~DUB said a lot of good info also.~~~

For Kaylo, Marth does well against olimar, but i know olimar's HATE peaches. Olimar is much worse then diddy for pikachu, you just need to find really good olimars, they are rare =P.

As for lvls, i think halberd is good it benefits you a little more then him. RC doesn't sound too bad either. think delfino wouldn't be a horrible lvl either.

King~ · Dec 10, 2009

i wasnt gonna say anything cause i havent played a good diddy in tournies in ages.

im just curious why FD is an autoban for some of you? personally i always try to strike to there or SV, its just way easier for me to deal with certain things there.

that being said, im almost positive im wrong wrong and am still basing my FD usage from way back when i used to think the mu to be 50-50/ pika favor.

KayLo! · Dec 10, 2009

Razek said:
You can CG him to like 25-30% if you can buffer it.

Pretty sure you can't CG Diddy..... if you can, not for 30%'s worth of damage. Maybe the Diddy you play against just doesn't know how to get out of it. x.o

CG thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225783

IIRC from when Diddy was in the CG thread, there was a CG that might've ended around 25-30%, but it started higher than 0.

Razek said:
For Kaylo, Marth does well against olimar, but i know olimar's HATE peaches. Olimar is much worse then diddy for pikachu, you just need to find really good olimars, they are rare =P.

I've played good Olimars and good Diddys, and I have an infinitely worse time vs. Diddy. It's just my own worst MU, personally..... Olimar doesn't bother me that much.

EDIT: Oh, and @Kyoshi: Flat stage with no platforms = banana ****. It limits your options for avoiding bananas, and you can't platform camp at all. I don't even like stages with platforms, but for me, they're a godsend vs. Diddy.

Besides that, if you get banana locked on FD, he can take you across the whole stage; if you're on a platform, you'll fall off fairly quickly and be able to regain control.

linkisthebest123 · Dec 11, 2009

I would just like to say, i completely hate diddys... they are by far my worst matchup. and i need some good ones to play against to raise my skill against them =\ i got none D:

Legendary Pikachu · Dec 11, 2009

linkisthebest123 said:
I would just like to say, i completely hate diddys... they are by far my worst matchup. and i need some good ones to play against to raise my skill against them =\ i got none D:

I could probably 'mimic' the best diddy's i've faced and help you practice... ^_^

gamesuxcard · Dec 11, 2009

Learn banana control. Instant throw naners. Don't QAC predictably. Camp dem platforms, aim tjolts for the head. Don't just spam them, use them like you would a threat. And play better, that's all you can do, this matchup isn't good for us. D:

Roller · Dec 11, 2009

isaccard said:
Learn banana control. Instant throw naners. Don't QAC predictably. Camp dem platforms, aim tjolts for the head. Don't just spam them, use them like you would a threat. And play better, that's all you can do, this matchup isn't good for us. D:

^ 'nough said.

KayLo! · Dec 13, 2009

Best options for killing Diddy, go go go!

Let's assume the worst: that he has two bananas out.

Fsmash/usmash don't seem to come in handy too often for me here..... I usually find myself using nair/edgeguarding for most of my KOs.

PUNK9 · Dec 13, 2009

Ok.
At WATO 8.5 last night.
I played GDX.
(Diddy PLayer)

I got owend xD

Anyway. One thing I found out fighting three different Diddy's last night.
1. If they use one bannana, find a way to grab that banana, and just keep throwing it up in the air. It will take longer for it to disappear. Making them mad.. Also While you are doing this, Most likey they are just going to pick another one, So, if they pick another one, just use the one you have in you're possession agastist them, or Just go with this next situation.

2. If they use two of them. You're best bet, Is to stay a goood distance away from them and just camp until you see an opening were you can go in with an airel.

This is a tough match-up for Pikachu, but not impossible.

Legendary Pikachu · Dec 13, 2009

PUNK9 said:
Ok.
At WATO 8.5 last night.
I played GDX.
(Diddy PLayer)

I got owend xD

Anyway. One thing I found out fighting three different Diddy's last night.
1. If they use one bannana, find a way to grab that banana, and just keep throwing it up in the air. It will take longer for it to disappear. Making them mad.. Also While you are doing this, Most likey they are just going to pick another one, So, if they pick another one, just use the one you have in you're possession agastist them, or Just go with this next situation.

2. If they use two of them. You're best bet, Is to stay a goood distance away from them and just camp until you see an opening were you can go in with an airel.

This is a tough match-up for Pikachu, but not impossible.

Ah... i remember facing GDX ^_^. Tho he never went diddy against me yet, my brother has faced him with TL and got REAL close for a first time ^_^ (lil bro is blessed with items.... just hope that GDX wasn't sandbaggin >:o).

I have a better addition to the vs. 2 naner strategy (that is of course if you want to do anything else besides setting up camp):

1) Bait a naner throw>take the hit with shield>OoS jump/catch/aerial> and proceed doing B's or z-drop FF f-air's and stuff (and keep throwing the naners straight up)

2) This is 'more' likely going to work because a majority of the diddy's tend to keep both naners together (even the top pros, cuz the potential setup is too good to pass for most diddy's) so rather getting the crap beat out of you for catching and holding onto that naner, their focus is divided in 2 (sort of).

3) I personally have harder times controlling Diddy's that play with 1 naner out (comfortably) most of the time, cuz the focused attention results in better jab-cancel or other mindgamed stuff.

4) My main objective is to bait a throw or strategically space myself whenever the naners initially come out or after the existing naners dissappear so that I'll land a game-changing combo or smackdown of some kind maybe.

All in all, its a tough matchup cuz there are so many different things diddy's can just choose to do for kills, gimps, approaches, camps, or for just plain fun. You'll just have to partner up with a diddy and get a feel for reacting on the spot at higher level play (there's no other option if pika's want to defeat the better diddy's IMHO).

KayLo! said:
Best options for killing Diddy, go go go!

Let's assume the worst: that he has two bananas out.

Fsmash/usmash don't seem to come in handy too often for me here..... I usually find myself using nair/edgeguarding for most of my KOs.

I hope some other pika's like ESAM or someone will help back me up on this, but i personally kill more diddy's with u-tilt>thunder KO's. That depends on whether diddy is close or not to the naners (or has them). If two naners are side by side, wherever diddy is, pika can squeeze in at least u-tilt most of the time. If diddy has one in hand, then... well i just make sure i bait that throw. Most of the time, I try to nail the f-air right when diddy is picking a banana up then comes u-tilt>thunder if the damage is right. Dunno why... it just happens that about 60%+ of my Diddy ko's are just from u-tilt>thunder or just plain u-tilt. Getting damage down on most diddy's doesn't happen to be too much of the problem for me--that may just be me. Item-ingenuity (from facing TL's) REALLY helps me a lot here. A neat thing to remember, much like someone above said (Pika has a crap-slow item throw), pikachu's z-drop is a lot more useful for me. Especially since a lot of diddy's don't use u-air as much (sometimes for a weird kill O_O), z-drop spacing oppurtunities occur a lot for me.

[FBC] ESAM · Dec 13, 2009

I'll try to input as much as I can. I have DFEAR and Advent Lee down here, and I've played GDX in a few friendlies.

Bananas are a pain in the balls. However, Pikachu can actually use them pretty well. Get the different glide toss distances down, they can be a life saver. If you do the long glide toss, and the banana hits diddy, you can get a F-smash out of it...its amazing.

I feel that pikachu will be getting most of his damage when diddy is pulling out bananas and when he is off the level. For the most part you won't be gimping diddy, but you can get a few nairs/T-jolts off on him.

The air is your friend in this match. You will spend most of your time either shielding bananas or jumping around. Diddy is vastly inferior to us in the air, and normally if you land using a T-jolt it is very hard for them to punish (unless they are in glide toss banana range). Fair comboes will do wonders.

This match will be more of hit-and-run than hit-and-combo match. You will be happy to get a little % and run away and be on the defensive. I like camping in this Match-up to make diddy approach. Make sure that you aren't doing it carelessly though, you will get naner-*****.

Thats basically it from me...sorry guize!

Legendary Pikachu · Dec 13, 2009

ESAM said:
Thats basically it from me...sorry guize!

Wow... i don't know if it is really new, but I just noticed you're icon is back to samus now.... (and I thought you said you were a 'former samus').... ^_^

[FBC] ESAM · Dec 14, 2009

Legendary Pikachu said:
Wow... i don't know if it is really new, but I just noticed you're icon is back to samus now.... (and I thought you said you were a 'former samus').... ^_^

It's for melee son.

KayLo! · Dec 15, 2009

Legendary Pikachu said:
it just happens that about 60%+ of my Diddy ko's are just from u-air>thunder or just plain u-air.

In that entire post, I think you wrote "uair" where you meant to write "utilt".

Because uair doesn't kill.
And uair > thunder doesn't work.

Legendary Pikachu · Dec 15, 2009

KayLo! said:
In that entire post, I think you wrote "uair" where you meant to write "utilt".

Because uair doesn't kill.
And uair > thunder doesn't work.

wow... i can't believe my brain was being stupid for the entire post... Thank you kaylo ^_^. U-tilt is exactly what i meant... going to edit now...

gamesuxcard · Dec 17, 2009

For killing Diddys your best option is probably upsmash oos (if you don't know how, you jump cancel it oos). Make sure you only do this when he's attacking you without a nana or else you'll probably just end up tripping from one of the many dumb things Diddy can do. If not, edgegard with dem uairs! Also bair when you're facing the blast zone will send them away from the ledge and help you ledge hog.

Fun fact, if you can get control of both naners and have space against a Diddy, you can nana lock him back and forth across the screen as long as the nanas still exist (short glide toss, short glide toss, long glide toss throwing downward, catch it after they trip and go the other way). However, if you can get control of both naners you're probably playing against a bad diddy and should just qac lock them anyway

.

PUNK9 · Dec 28, 2009

Welll, For Fighting a goood Dddy Player, I find that keeping a goood distance away from him and just shooting t-jolts, helps sooo much. and making him approch you. Just IMO.
1 banana= easy to deal with
2 banannas= jesus's ***** hard. You MUST play safe, in this case

[FBC] ESAM · Dec 28, 2009

So yeah...it is best to throw your bananas away. Throw them in the direction that diddy is to maybe get a hit, but throw them away with Air-dodge-cancel-item-throw. It helps get pressure off soooooooo much.

KayLo! · Jan 2, 2010

Hmmm, from what I've seen from your vids and experienced myself, throwing them up or away is usually better than throwing them at Diddy. He just handles them better than we do, and punishing his attempts to get his bananas back or pull more seems to be more effective than directly using his bananas against him.

Glide toss > usmash is sexy, though.

And it really depends on how confident the Pika is with using items.... personal preference and whatnot.

PUNK9 · Jan 3, 2010

KayLo! said:
Hmmm, from what I've seen from your vids and experienced myself, throwing them up or away is usually better than throwing them at Diddy. He just handles them better than we do, and punishing his attempts to get his bananas back or pull more seems to be more effective than directly using his bananas against him.

Glide toss > usmash is sexy, though.

And it really depends on how confident the Pika is with using items.... personal preference and whatnot.

Want I do, Is when I have a bananna, I FH off stage and throw it up. That way, another Bananna can't be pulled, and Diddy can't use that agastist you. ._.

Legendary Pikachu · Jan 3, 2010

KayLo! said:
Hmmm, from what I've seen from your vids and experienced myself, throwing them up or away is usually better than throwing them at Diddy.

I would suggest that pika's who aren't used to item usage to throw all naners up. My little brother (TL main) advises pikas to do this also. The only thing diddy can do to safely catch a "blindspot enemy naner" coming back down from offscreen is a well timed b-air or side-b>aerial. Either option is highly punishable if pika spaces right and Diddy tries to get the naner... instacatching them with z is a lot harder and can be punished by pika's u-air even if they catch it. Throwing naners up also prevents diddy from summoning more (whereas throwing off allows diddy to summon the lost naner).

That's just my little suggestion. Not many other pika's know how to catch and throw bananas as quickly as you ESAM, let alone doing it consistently. Throwing it up gets the job done and it has almost no learning curve ^_^.

But as Kaylo says, its up to preference. Good diddy matches ESAM.

[FBC] ESAM · Jan 3, 2010

You guys don't know how to air dodge cancel item throw?

KayLo! · Jan 3, 2010

.........Wut? Who said anybody didn't know how to do it?

Legendary Pikachu · Jan 3, 2010

KayLo! said:
.........Wut? Who said anybody didn't know how to do it?

Oh... I was mainly adding that for new pika mains or just new brawlers overall (there are a ton of new ppl who second pika) who haven't had any TL or Diddy matchup experience. Otherwise, unless they've been lurking for a bit on smashboards, some actually wouldn't know how to airdodge-item-throw-cancel ^_^.

gamesuxcard · Jan 7, 2010

ESAM said:
You guys don't know how to air dodge cancel item throw?

It's called an instant throw =P.

As for always throwing naners away, wtff?? Gaining control of a nana and camping with tjolts/using it to bait diddys is way too good. If you're throwing away the nanas always learn the matchup more.

gallax · Jan 16, 2010

so i played a lot of pika vs diddy yesterday and at first it was difficult but i can definately see pika having the tools to win this. but, you must learn how to glide toss, insta throw items and HOWTO GET THE NANERZ WHEREEVER THEY ARE ON THE LEVEL if you want to make this a more even fight.

i wanna say 55:45 diddy and 60:40 at worst for pika. what say the community?

[FBC] ESAM · Jan 16, 2010

I say 55:45. This battle is literally who is smarter. Diddys have a lot of patterns and they end up using them at X situation like high %s and such. If pikachu can pick up on his patterns he can really **** with the diddy. 55:45 solidly in diddy's favor, he has more room to **** up.

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