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An in-depth look into Peach's uair string

hotgarbage

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Thanks to Excel_Zero for first pointing this out to the Peach boards!



Basic info


What is this?
Ground float uair -> ground float uair -> *repeat as many times as possible* -> full hop uair (usually) -> followup (nair/dj nair is good)

Video demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF-pxIUO3gE

As I'm sure you can tell this is peach's most devastating combo string.


.....Wait, this actually works??
Yup! When used correctly it is completely frame guaranteed. You have peach's floating and uair's very low landing lag/base knockback to thank for that.


BUT NO COMBOZ IN BARWL
For those who aren't aware: if an attack deals low enough knockback it cannot be DI'd or gotten out of early via attacking or airdodging, meaning that it actually has some hitstun behind it. Peach's uair takes advantage of this very nicely.


Is this actually feasible to do?
It's not easy, but yes your frame window for error is acceptable; in other words yes, this is humanely possible.


How much damage can this do?
Depends on the character. For very floatly/light characters it can do over 60% if you include the ending nair, while wolf and fox get hit for over 100% damage. For more information see the "character specifics" section.


At what percentages does this work?
Depends on the character. On average there is about an 18% range where Peach's uair will true combo into itself. Heavier characters have a larger range and lighter characters have a smaller one. The uair string is far more effective if you start it at the beginning of that range. If you connect with a uair at the beginning you can expect to deal out damage similar to what's seen in the "Character Specifics" section. If you connect at the end you can string together two uairs before sending your opponent into tumble, where they'll be in a poor position but no longer locked into the combo. Also note that if your uair is already staled the range will be larger and take place at a higher percent.


How do you set this up?
Punishing laggy attacks, punishing read spotdodges/rolls, doing it out of a dair, or simply hitting someone with it in the air. Basically you just have to connect with a floated uair or sh/float dair in a certain percent range.


How do you physically do this?

Not easily, as you don't have buffering to aid you here outside of inputting your next jump. As with bone walking this will take some work.

First off you I recommend you have access to the control stick, the c-stick, and a jump button all at once; which means that you'll have to either claw or set R or something to jump. This is only a recommendation though, use whatever works for you :).

Then you just....

Jump -> control stick down during jump -> c-stick up after initial jump animation is done -> release float -> repeat


Suggested training (do whatever works for you though!)
- Go to training mode and try this at 2/3 speed. Unfortunately you can't go any lower than cause c-stick doesn't work for god knows what reason.
- After you get a feel for things try it against a fatty like Dedede with him at something like 30%. Note that attacks don't diminish in training mode, so you won't be able to string many hits. You should be able to get a feel for it though. Up the speed to normal when you wish.
- Go to Brawl mode and select Dedede with his handicap at 30% and try it there. You'll have to kill yourself and Dedede to reset the percentages/move staleness which is a bit of a pain, but there's no real alternative so eh.
- For the dair -> uair string version I like doing it against a 10% wolf. Personally I find doing it from a dair to be pretty bloody difficult, so be warned.

Tips
- If you end up usmashing you either hit the c-stick too soon or pressed down before you began jumping. With me it's nearly always the latter.
- When doing dair -> uair string you have to time your fall/fast fall so that you're floating just above the ground when you uair. From a buffered dair if you fastfall during the fourth hit's hitlag you'll be floating at the correct height afterwards. If I'm going to screw up somewhere this is usually it.
- After the dair there's no rush to land the uair! Dair gives you a huge advantage, so it's best to wait a split second and then go for the string instead of rushing it and screwing up.



A note on the fh uair followup

After the full hop uair you have something like a +1 or +2 advantage. This means that no attack you have will be completely frame-guaranteed, but nair will be **** close and will hit your opponent if they do anything but jump. In some cases jumping won't save them either. There is a trick to this though: you want to buffer a double jump nair, aka dj and nair at the same time. To do this input jump and then nair in quick succession during the last 11 frames of your uair. If you do it right you'll double jump nair but the "double jump wave thing" won't appear under you. Practice practice!

Also you can always go for another uair if you think it'll hit. Up to you!





Assorted Data


Uair frame data
Duration: 35
Hits on Frame: 8
Hitbox Duration: 8-12 (5)
Aerial Cooldown: 23
Landing Lag: 9
Autocancels on Frame: 23


Hitbox information
Uair has 3 hitboxes that all last 5 frames and come out/end at the same time: One on her foot that does 13% and has the most knockback, one on her knee that does 12% and has less knockback, and one on her toosh that does 11% and sends your opponents sideways a short distance. If you somehow hit with the latter one follow it up with a dash grab/dash attack/glide toss.


Uair string frame stuffs
-Minimum adv needed for guaranteed string:+13
-Minimum adv needed assuming opponent doesn't jump: +10; +11 if they have a 3-frame aerial attack
-Maximum advantage is +20
-String gets easier as it progresses. For an example: (first number is advantage, second is window for error)
On metaknight:
1: +13 (0)
2: +15 (2)
3: +18 (5)
4: +19 (6)


Characters you cannot hit with an upwards-sending uair while on the ground
-Meta Knight
-Olimar
-Pikachu
-Kirby
-Squirtle
-Ice Climbers
-Lucass
-Jigglypuff
-G&W
-Diddy* (both)
-Pikachu
-Ivysaur
-Jigglypuff

Characters that get hit by the weaker 12% hitbox when standing
-Peach
-Mario
-Luigi
-Diddy (both)
-Yoshi
-Wario
-Link
-Toon link
-Pit
-Falco
-Fox
-Wolf
-Lucario
-Ivysaur (rarely)
-Ness
-Sonic
-Sheik

Characters that get hit by the 13% hitbox
-Bowser
-Zelda
-Samus
-Ganondorf
-ZSS
-ROB
-Dedede
-Captain Falcon
-Marth
-Charizard
-Ike
-Snake


Ground floated fresh uair advantage: light character (metaknight)
0%: +2
5%: +5
10%: +8
15%: +10
20%: +12
25%: +15
30%: +17
35%: +20
40%: +4 if ad, +15 if attack, +22 if jump (uair now deals "DIable" knockback)

Ground floated fresh uair advantage: medium character (Pit)
0%: +2
5%: +4
10%: +6
15%: +9
20%: +11
25%: +13
30%: +15
35%: +18
40%: +20
45%: +4 if ad, +15 if attack, +22 if jump (uair now deals "DIable" knockback)

Ground floated fresh uair advantage: heavy character (snake)
0%: +1
5%: +3
10%: +5
15%: +8
20%: +10
25%: +12
30%: +14
35%: +16
40%: +18
45%: +20
50%: +4 if ad, +15 if attack, +22 if jump (uair now deals "DIable" knockback)


Uair damage at different staleness
x0: 13%
x1: 11%
x2: 10%
x3: 9%
x4: 8%
x5: 7%
x6: 7%
x7: 6%
x8: 6%
x9: 5%


Example of how effective range changes with staleness: (done on MK)
x0: 20%-36% (range=17)
x1: 27%-47% (range=21)
x2 32%-52% (range=21)
x3 38%-59% (range=22)
....
x9 60%-93% (range=34)


Food for thought
Uair-> footstool works nicely. If you're some kind of bair-lock master go for it.



Character Specifics


Key
Fresh uair combo threshold- the highest percent your uair will deal out knockback that cannot be DI'd
String first guaranteed at- the earliest percent where a fresh uair will give you a +13 advantage. Assumes connecting with a fresh uair.
Uair x # - shows how many uairs you can string from a fresh uair at max; gives you an idea of how effective it is against that specific character.
Dair->uair x # - shows how many uairs you can string after a dair setup at max.


Notes
-Damage does not include ending followup. If you want to include that ending nair just add 13 on to the damage done.
-Damage is not guaranteed to be 100% correct; it should give you an idea of the string's effectiveness against that particular character regardless.
-All of this assumes no SDI
-Lastly not every character is here, but I think I got all the ones that matter.


:metaknight: Meta Knight
Fresh uair combo threshold: 36%
String first guaranteed at: 20%

dair->uair x 4 (59%)


:snake: Snake
Fresh uair combo threshold: 46%
String first guaranteed at: 27%

uair x 5 (53%)
dair->uair x 4 (59%)


:warioc: Wario
Fresh uair combo threshold: 44%
String first guaranteed at: 26%
String first guaranteed from 12% hitbox: 30%

uair x 5 (52%)
dair->uair x 3 (53%)
from grab release lol: uair x 4 (44%)


:falco: Falco
Fresh uair combo threshold: 37%
String first guaranteed at: 22%
String first guaranteed from 12% hitbox: 25%
Ground string first works @: 23%

uair x 7 (in range but in tumble after 7) (66%)
dair->uair x 5 (65%)


:diddy: Diddy Kong
Fresh uair combo threshold: 40%
String first guaranteed at: 23%

dair->uair x 4 (59%)


:dedede: King Dedede
Fresh uair combo threshold: 46%
String first guaranteed at: 27%

uair x 6 (61%)
dair->uair x 5 (65%)


:marth: Marth
Fresh uair combo threshold: 38%
String first guaranteed at: 23%

uair x 4 (44%)
dair->uair x 2 (40%)


:gw: G&W
Fresh uair combo threshold: 35%
String first guaranteed at: 20%

dair->uair x 3 (50%)


:pikachu2: Pikachu
Fresh uair combo threshold: 36%
String first guaranteed at: 21%

dair->uair x 4 (59%)


:olimar: Olimar
Fresh uair combo threshold: 37%
String first guaranteed at: 21%

dair->uair x 2 (40%)


:popo: Ice Climbers
Fresh uair combo threshold: 40%
String first guaranteed at: 23%

dair->uair x 3 (50%)


:rob: ROB
Fresh uair combo threshold: 44%
String first guaranteed at: 26%

uair x 4 (44%)
dair->uair x 2 (40%)


:kirby2: Kirby
Fresh uair combo threshold: 36%
String first guaranteed at: 21%

dair->uair x 2 (40%)


:lucario: Lucario
Fresh uair combo threshold: 42%
String first guaranteed at: 25%
String first guaranteed from 12% hitbox: 29%

uair x 4 (barely) (44%)
dair->uair x 2 (40%)


:zerosuitsamus: Zero Suit Samus
Fresh uair combo threshold: 36%
String first guaranteed at: 21%

uair x 5 (53%)
dair->x 4 (59%)


:toonlink: Toon Link
Fresh uair combo threshold: 40%
String first guaranteed at: 23%
String first guaranteed from 12% hitbox: 27%

uair x 4 (44%)
dair->uair x 2 (40%)


:pit: Pit
Fresh uair combo threshold: 41%
String first guaranteed at: 23%
String first guaranteed from 12% hitbox: 26%

uair x 5 (53%)
dair->uair x 3 (50%)


:dk2: Donkey Kong
Fresh uair combo threshold: 47%
String first guaranteed at: 28%

uair x 5 (53%)
dair->uair x 4 (59%)


:peach: Peach
Fresh uair combo threshold: 40%
String first guaranteed at: 23%
String guaranteed from weaker 12% hitbox: 28%

uair x 3 (35%)
dair->uair x 2 (40%)


:luigi2: Luigi
Fresh uair combo threshold: 43%
String first guaranteed at: 24%
String guaranteed from weaker 12% hitbox: 28%

uair x 4 (43%)
dair->uair x 3 (barely) (50%)


:fox: Fox
Fresh uair combo threshold: 36%
String first guaranteed at: 21%
Ground string first works @: 24%

uair x 6 (58%) (in range but in tumble after 6)
dair->uair x 8 (88%)


:wolf: Wolf
Fresh uair combo threshold: 43%
String first guaranteed at: 25%
String guaranteed from weaker 12% hitbox:
Ground string first works @: 28%

uair x 9 (79%)
dair->uair x 10 (95%)


:shiek: Sheik
Fresh uair combo threshold: 38%
String first guaranteed at: 22%
Ground string first works @: 30%

uair x 4 (43%) (in range but in tumble after 4)
dair->uair x 6 (78%)


:bowser2: Bowser
Fresh uair combo threshold: 48%
String first guaranteed at: 28%

uair x 6 (61%)
dair->uair x 5 (65%)
 

DTP

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Wow, I love this. Great work, I'm impressed with all of your data and such. Keep it up!
 

deepseadiva

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My god Horgarbage you are just so freaking amazing.
 

hiROI

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I'm getting the hang of it! Hopefully the tourny this week I can debut it! This makes the Falco match up closer!
 

deepseadiva

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I got to practicing the movements for this today, and I did about five consecutively. Kinda hard, but apparently very doable without a c-stick.

Unless I was doing them wrong or something. >___>

I'll see once I move along to actually performing it on characters.
 

iRJi

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I am assuming that you practice the DI/ SDI for this technique, correct? Just by the looks of it, it seems very SDIable.
 

theunabletable

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^I don't think you can DI for the same reason you can't DI Falco's D-throw until like 45%; because it doesn't send you into a tumble.
 

Praxis

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This is obviously going to be SDIable. However, the Peach will be able to chase SDI (something I'm personally very good at) and still end the combo, just with less hits.

These percentages are NOT guaranteed. I've had Fiction SDI ridiculous things out of my SH dair > uair combo.

Still a very useful find.

@ Sign; you can't DI out of it because it doesn't send you into a tumble, but as it is not a grab, SDI will still work.
 

theunabletable

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@Praxis: Although since UAir doesn't have a lot of hitlag, wouldn't it be really really hard to SDI it?

Idk maybe I just suck really badly at SDI :p
 

hotgarbage

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so wait, what characters can you upsmash out of this?
You can usmash pretty much everyone, but if you want to actually kill with usmash... that works on Fox and Wolf as far as I know. Realistically though they will probably sdi enough to avoid that fate.

This is obviously going to be SDIable. However, the Peach will be able to chase SDI (something I'm personally very good at) and still end the combo, just with less hits.

These percentages are NOT guaranteed. I've had Fiction SDI ridiculous things out of my SH dair > uair combo.
Exactly :)


Anyways after re-reading this I realized that I worded some things badly; specifically the "At what percentages does this work?" blip. I fixed it up... I hope I didn't throw anyone off there :dizzy:.


EDIT:
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention: if anyone is having trouble doing this or just wants confirmation that they're doing it correctly feel free to send me a replay; I'll look at it frame-by-frame and answer whatever your question is :3.
 

Mr. Johan

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Peach vs. Wolf just became a 70:30 MU at the most for him XDD But that is incredible. makes me want to consider picking up Peach, even though I don't understand her at all.

I wonder, will Sonic be able to Spring out of this at any point? Or is the hitstun too much, or the U-air too fast to give Sonic time, even if there is a little margin of error, as you described could happen?
 

hotgarbage

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Peach vs. Wolf just became a 70:30 MU at the most for him XDD But that is incredible. makes me want to consider picking up Peach, even though I don't understand her at all.
Hm, I dunno if it would effect the matchup THAT much. The % range where you can deal out absolute **** is not large at all, and there's always sdi to consider. It's still a very nice thing to be able to hold over him though :3.

I wonder, will Sonic be able to Spring out of this at any point? Or is the hitstun too much, or the U-air too fast to give Sonic time, even if there is a little margin of error, as you described could happen?
According to your frame data thread spring is invincible starting on frame 4... so that shouldn't work the Peach does it right.
 

DanGR

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A while ago I was playing around with float canceled n-air strings on some of the floaty characters like Samus. Could integrating n-airs into the combo possibly help extend it at all? Perhaps a hit weak could prop them right into a position near the ground to upair again while they're close...

Also, if you've got a 13 frame advantage or so after an upair, why not wait a bit before doing the next one? Let them fall nearer to the ground?
 

LanceStern

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A while ago I was playing around with float canceled n-air strings on some of the floaty characters like Samus. Could integrating n-airs into the combo possibly help extend it at all? Perhaps a hit weak could prop them right into a position near the ground to upair again while they're close...

Also, if you've got a 13 frame advantage or so after an upair, why not wait a bit before doing the next one? Let them fall nearer to the ground?
I would think some characters with brokenly fast aerials (or at least high priority) would get out of it if you wait too long. A MK niar, or wolf nair, fox shine, etc.
 

Dark.Pch

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You might be able to pull this thing off from platforms as well. Check out this lil combo vid I did a year ago. Look at 3:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKan7F2Bxqo

Also check out 3:27 You might be able to footstool to up air and start the combo that way.

Hotgarbage, try this out for me. this might be easier or anyther way to do this.
 

DTP

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I would think some characters with brokenly fast aerials (or at least high priority) would get out of it if you wait too long. A MK niar, or wolf nair, fox shine, etc.
I was thinking of this as well.
 

hotgarbage

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A while ago I was playing around with float canceled n-air strings on some of the floaty characters like Samus. Could integrating n-airs into the combo possibly help extend it at all? Perhaps a hit weak could prop them right into a position near the ground to upair again while they're close...
That's a good idea! I plan to look into stuff like that when I get around to looking at all her moves and their low% combo potential.

Also, if you've got a 13 frame advantage or so after an upair, why not wait a bit before doing the next one? Let them fall nearer to the ground?
Because it takes 13 frames for the next uair to come out :p (5 jump + 8 uair). Waiting a bit is optimal later in the chain where you have a greater advantage though, yeah.


You might be able to pull this thing off from platforms as well. Check out this lil combo vid I did a year ago. Look at 3:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKan7F2Bxqo

Also check out 3:27 You might be able to footstool to up air and start the combo that way.

Hotgarbage, try this out for me. this might be easier or anyther way to do this.
These are both good ideas as well. I don't know how much "stun" a footstool on a grounded opponent gives off the top of my head..... it may work.

Hm, I didn't test this on platforms at all. I wonder if you could uair string some and then jump up to the platform to continue it. Also I wonder if you could start the chain at an earlier percentage due to your opponent being forced into a hard landing...... I'll look into all this when I'm able.
 

MetalMusicMan

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Great find and fantastic work putting this together and explaining it. Peach is already really underrated IMO and this will only help her go up!

NICE WORK!!!
 

Razmakazi

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Hmm this is pretty easy-ish to do compared to the other Peach Turnip ATs that come up.

Well it's coz I already claw though but for me the hard part is dair to the first two uairs. I tend to uair too highly coz I mess up the ground float and start the float too late or I'd usmash.
 

saviorslegacy

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It is like literally impossible to SDI something with almost no knock back.
Why do you think us Sheiks have our f-tilt lock?

Anyways, this can be SDI'd out of around the time that Peach is forced to jump to continue the combo.
That said, this is pretty amazing.
People that are able to SDI this at low percents are practically breaking a rule or something because all SDI does is change the direction that this is sending you. You don't actually gain much if any momentum at all.
Why do you think it took Mango so many years to SDI Fox's Uair in Melee?
 

Gea

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I'll have to practice this. Because of the % margins on some characters, it will be less useful than some people are thinking. Still, drastically helps vs spacies and a great punisher on our worse matchups.
 

Dark.Pch

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These are both good ideas as well. I don't know how much "stun" a footstool on a grounded opponent gives off the top of my head..... it may work.

Hm, I didn't test this on platforms at all. I wonder if you could uair string some and then jump up to the platform to continue it. Also I wonder if you could start the chain at an earlier percentage due to your opponent being forced into a hard landing...... I'll look into all this when I'm able.
If they make a hard landing and you are under it, They can't really do anything. Stand right in the middle, So if they rolled left or right, you can follow them and up air ( If you have good reaction speed that is.) Always stand in the middle no matter where they land on a platform from a hard fall. And of course, they get up in place, too easy for you.

The only thing that concerns me is if they are able to hit thier feet on the platform to break out of it and flee before another up air hits them.

For the foot stool, have someone here footstoll some one else and see how long it takes to move again. If you have enough time, footstool>FC>Cancel it quickly to a falling Up-air.

 

saviorslegacy

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Last time I checked a grounded footstool was like really long (counting that they go no where).
I'm guessing that they have stun for like 30 frames. At any rate, it is long enough for Ness to footstool and link into his PK Thunder.
So you can defiantly link probably every aerial except for maybe Fair from a footstool. Heck, Fair might even combo.
 

LanceStern

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Two things:

1. Again, I would think some characters with brokenly fast aerials (or at least high priority) would get out of it if you wait too long. A MK niar, or wolf nair, fox shine, etc.

2. Can this be pulled off with a turnip/bomb?
 

Dark.Pch

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A Bomb? They will fly too far out your reach for that to even happen.

And for a turnip to work, you owuld have to Glide toss up while moving foward. And if they are above you, the turnips hits them and move in the same direction you slide, and then hit them with an up air. Cause a turnip from under a person hits sends them ether left or right. Not Straight Up.

Here is something else I thought of. This is for characters that you can chain grab. Try to chain grab them and then Ftilt them. if they pop up ovetyou from a Ftilt, maybe you can Start the upair link that way.
 

theunabletable

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Why do you think us Sheiks have our f-tilt lock?
'Cause Sheik's ftilt has half of the normal SDI capacity (<3 PSA) :p
1. Again, I would think some characters with brokenly fast aerials (or at least high priority) would get out of it if you wait too long. A MK niar, or wolf nair, fox shine, etc.
Looking at the frame advantage and such, if done perfectly by the Peach, you can't get out of it.

This is so awesome.
 

Gea

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It is DIable, it just happens in a way that where Peach should be able to chase and follow. The knockback is small enough that you the DI doesn't make a HUGE difference. You can SDI, but since this hasn't been applied in the long run, it is anyone's guess at how well that works.

On another note, why not use Dtilt for a setup? If they airdodge out of Dtilt you get the grab where you can dthrow/uthrow and try again, otherwise start dat uair. And I second the whole ftilt thing. Just watch the person. If they like to airdodge its a regrab on many, if not, start it up.
 

Dark.Pch

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That downtilt is a good Idea. The hit stun on the move is long too when hit. So far seem we are getting alot of ways to connect with this.

I need someone to test the chain grab set up out as well. I think it might work.
 

hotgarbage

Smash Lord
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Hmm this is pretty easy-ish to do compared to the other Peach Turnip ATs that come up.

Well it's coz I already claw though but for me the hard part is dair to the first two uairs. I tend to uair too highly coz I mess up the ground float and start the float too late or I'd usmash.
Yeah I have the same problem :X. That's definitely the trickiest part of this whole thing imo.

If they make a hard landing and you are under it, They can't really do anything. Stand right in the middle, So if they rolled left or right, you can follow them and up air ( If you have good reaction speed that is.) Always stand in the middle no matter where they land on a platform from a hard fall. And of course, they get up in place, too easy for you.

The only thing that concerns me is if they are able to hit thier feet on the platform to break out of it and flee before another up air hits them.
Ah, by "hard landing" I meant them landing on the platform and being forced to suffer 4 frames of landing lag (I think the number is larger for some characters?). If they land when they're almost out of stun it'll actually add to your advantage... like say you have a +13 advantage normally, and they land on the platform on frame 12 of that advantage and have to go through 4 frames of landing lag. That would bring your advantage up to +15.

Two things:

1. Again, I would think some characters with brokenly fast aerials (or at least high priority) would get out of it if you wait too long. A MK niar, or wolf nair, fox shine, etc.
True, there would be some risk in intentionally waiting.

2. Can this be pulled off with a turnip/bomb?
Yes it can. Uair string -> up throw/up glide toss/jump up throw -> whatever would probably true combo.

Here is something else I thought of. This is for characters that you can chain grab. Try to chain grab them and then Ftilt them. if they pop up ovetyou from a Ftilt, maybe you can Start the upair link that way.
It wouldn't be frame guaranteed as ftilt gives you like a +3 adv at max, but that would be a perfect setup positionally. If they air dodge you could hit them pretty hard when they land.

It is DIable, it just happens in a way that where Peach should be able to chase and follow. The knockback is small enough that you the DI doesn't make a HUGE difference. You can SDI, but since this hasn't been applied in the long run, it is anyone's guess at how well that works.
Actually you can't DI these hits at all; you can only SDI them.

On another note, why not use Dtilt for a setup? If they airdodge out of Dtilt you get the grab where you can dthrow/uthrow and try again, otherwise start dat uair. And I second the whole ftilt thing. Just watch the person. If they like to airdodge its a regrab on many, if not, start it up.
Hm, dtilt would work nicely.

Another setup is simply glide tossing -> dair, which is a true combo... though it may depend on the spacing. On MK and other light characters @ 0% glide toss -> dair -> uair string works lol.
 
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