the COMPLETE grab release thread

saviorslegacy · Dec 12, 2009

Innocentroads left a few things out.

*terminology*
Grusting= Grab Release> USmash
Ledge Releasing= Grab Release the foe with the feet hanging over the ledge so that they are forced to air release.

DACUS tipper
Fair
Bair

nothing

*air release not guaranteed*
DACUS side hit
Boost Grab
Needle's

*Ledge Releasing*
When Bowser is air released at the ledge you can follow up with Needles.

*air release not guaranteed*
DACUS tipper
Fair (frame perfect)

*Ledge Releasing*
Needles are not guaranteed but close.

*air release not guaranteed*
DACUS tipper

*Ledge Releasing*
Needles are not guaranteed but close.

DACUS tipper on slanted ground

Usmash tipper
u-tilt
f-tilt
Fair
Nair
Bair
Uair

*air release not guaranteed*
DACUS tipper

*Ledge Releasing*
Needles are not guaranteed but since Links second jump is crappy a fully charged Needle Storm is pretty much guaranteed and he is screwed after that. Finish him off with a ledge hog.

nothing

:shiek:
*air release not guaranteed*
Dash Attack

*Ledge Releasing*
If Sheik does not double jump and air dodge they will eat the SH Needles and lose their second jump if she chooses to jump. If they do jump air dodge just punish with Nair or w/e.
If Needles do connect she can auto snap to the ledge without a problem.
On a side note they can also fall into the pit, second jump to a wall and wall jump to increase their chances of recovery. Be aware that this can be stage spiked.

*air release not guaranteed*
DACUS tipper
Needles

*Ledge Releasing*
Needles are guaranteed at the ledge.

Fair
DACUS tipper on slanted ground

nothing

*air release not guaranteed*
DACUS tipper

(only with Popo)
DACUS tipper
Fair

nothing

Fair
Bair

DACUS tipper
DACUS side hit
Fair
Bair
Dash Attack
Boost Grab
Needle's

:dedede:

*air release not guaranteed*
DACUS tipper

Fair
Bair

*Ledge Releasing*
It doesn't true combo but you can SH Needle Storm.
This is an awesome frame trap. He has to jump> airdodge or the Needles will connect. If he air dodges punish the air dodge. Either way he will always end up being forced to use Fire Fox. Fair trades, but Bair is better. You can hit with a weak Bair and then follow up with a strong Bair. Simply tether the ledge and dangle, he is screwed.
His last option is to use the reflector. He has to jump some time... so just wait.
Just about the only safe option that he has is to fall and Helicopter kick up by the stage. This is a stage spike waiting to happen.

Bottom line, either you wait and punish whatever option he chooses or you use Needles right away.

example- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUlE-WQQuck

*air release not guaranteed*
DACUS side hit

*Ledge Releasing*
It doesn't true combo but you can FH Needle Storm.
This is an awesome frame trap. He has to jump> airdodge or the Needles will connect. If he air dodges punish the air dodge.
If the Falco is smart he will SDI the Needles and Phantasm. If not he is forced to us Fire Bird.
Fair trades with Fire Bird, but Bair is better. You can hit with a weak Bair and then follow up with a strong Bair. Simply tether the ledge and dangle, he is screwed.

*air release not guaranteed*
DACUS tipper

*Ledge Releasing*
You can FH Needle Storm, or wait and attempt to remove his second jump.
This is an awesome frame trap. He has to jump> airdodge or the Needles will connect unless you true combo it. If he air dodges punish the air dodge. Either way he will always end up being forced to use Fire Wolf. Fair trades, but Bair is better. You can hit with a weak Bair and then follow up with a strong Bair. Simply tether the ledge and dangle, he is screwed.

*air release not guaranteed*
DACUS side hit

*Ledge Releasing*
FH Needles connect unless he jumps and airdodges. Don't waist your Needles though, most will not hit and he can always recover.

DACUS tipper
DACUS side hit
Needle's
Dash Attack
Boost Grab

sh*t

DACUS
Dash Attack
Boost Grab

When you Dash Grab him he will glitch and he should air release.
Fair

*Ledge Releasing*
Needles

nothing

Uair is 1 frame from being true. She is forced to air dodge making this a frame trap. Punish the air dodge.

nothing

*air release not guaranteed*
DACUS tipper

DACUS tipper on slanted ground
Fair

*ground release*
jab
f-tilt
DSmash
Needle's
d-tilt
grab
pivot grab (sucks him back)

DACUS tipper
DACUS side hit
Dash Attack
Boost Grab

*ground release*
jab
f-tilt
DSmash
Needle's
d-tilt
grab
pivot grab (sucks him back)

DACUS tipper on slanted ground
Fair

*air release not guaranteed*
DACUS tipper

Yumewomiteru · Dec 12, 2009

Wow, did not know you can get DACUS on so many char. Good stuff SL.

J4pu · Dec 12, 2009

fair can't combo into ftilt...

rathy Aro · Dec 12, 2009

yes it can

J4pu · Dec 12, 2009

true combo? I'm not saying it isn't possible to string them together it just seems to me that it's escapable

if it is a true combo I'm finding it highly unlikely that Ftilt can true combo into grab, I'm pretty **** positive they can escape that

I'm not trying to say this thread doesn't give some good info because it has some really great information that required a lot of testing, I just don't think you should add things that aren't guaranteed.

If they are all literally guaranteed (even if it requires frame perfect timing) I apologize for doubting

DanGR · Dec 12, 2009

saviorslegacy said:
DACUS tipper on slanted ground
Fair

*ground release*
jab
f-tilt
DSmash
Needle's
d-tilt
grab
pivot grab (sucks him back)v

DACUS tipper

Infinite on Ness? (Ground Release->pivotgrab + GR->grab)

And is there anything Sheik can do out of a ground release to Lucas? I was sure that he suffered a similar fate on the grab release shenanigans... not as severally, but still. Anything? ;/

rathy Aro · Dec 12, 2009

J4pu said:
true combo? I'm not saying it isn't possible to string them together it just seems to me that it's escapable

if it is a true combo I'm finding it highly unlikely that Ftilt can true combo into grab, I'm pretty **** positive they can escape that

I'm not trying to say this thread doesn't give some good info because it has some really great information that required a lot of testing, I just don't think you should add things that aren't guaranteed.

If they are all literally guaranteed (even if it requires frame perfect timing) I apologize for doubting

i can understand doubting fair->ftilt, but ftilt->grab is obviously a combo (sometimes). ftilt combos into everything (more or less).

with proper decay on the fair. fair->ftilt is a true combo. i feel saviors should mention that the "aero" combo won't always work.

Dcold · Dec 12, 2009

I think that goes without saying, basically everything sheik uses that is a true combo from Ftilt has to be decayed. It really is implied but pointing it out would help as well lol.

j0s3ph · Dec 13, 2009

Nice work. Blew my thread away...and i was wondering recently if ftilt was confirmed on Wario out of gr, sot his answers that question too

saviorslegacy · Dec 13, 2009

J4pu said:
true combo? I'm not saying it isn't possible to string them together it just seems to me that it's escapable

if it is a true combo I'm finding it highly unlikely that Ftilt can true combo into grab, I'm pretty **** positive they can escape that

I'm not trying to say this thread doesn't give some good info because it has some really great information that required a lot of testing, I just don't think you should add things that aren't guaranteed.

If they are all literally guaranteed (even if it requires frame perfect timing) I apologize for doubting

Depends
It can true combo, and it also can't. We have a combo called the Swan Combo and it is f-tilt> Fair> f-tilt> Fair> ect until you can end with USmash tipper or DSmash if they aren't at USmash KO percents.

The Aero Combo DID true combo about 25ish% of the time in 1/4 speed. It pretty much needs to be frame perfect.
With enough practice, you will be frame perfect.

Not really doubt. More like you are making me give more information on a subject that hasn't been touched yet.
I am happy that Sheik finally has a CG though.

DanGR said:
Infinite on Ness? (Ground Release->pivotgrab + GR->grab)

And is there anything Sheik can do out of a ground release to Lucas? I was sure that he suffered a similar fate on the grab release shenanigans... not as severally, but still. Anything? ;/

Hmmm... we might be able to pivot infinite.
I was talking about dashing away from them and pivot grabbing to get more stage. That way we can CG longer.

I haven't finished my thread yet.

rathy Aro said:
i can understand doubting fair->ftilt, but ftilt->grab is obviously a combo (sometimes). ftilt combos into everything (more or less).

with proper decay on the fair. fair->ftilt is a true combo. i feel saviors should mention that the "aero" combo won't always work.

It wont always work.
It will work enough that it is worth mentioning.
Also, decay does not take part in this from 40% - 60%.
After that, decay Fair is needed/wanted.

Dcold said:
I think that goes without saying, basically everything sheik uses that is a true combo from Ftilt has to be decayed. It really is implied but pointing it out would help as well lol.

Not true.
The only thing that decay does is make it combo longer or at various percents.
ie f-tilt> USmash is a true combo at like 70%.
When decayed it is a true combo at like 90%. AKA, kill percents.

j0s3ph said:
Nice work. Blew my thread away...and i was wondering recently if ftilt was confirmed on Wario out of gr, sot his answers that question too

Who is your thread on?
If you really want to be blown away look at the Bowser boards thread. <,<
Oh how I envy his 10 less frames out of a grab release.

Zankoku · Dec 13, 2009

Tester? I'm assuming you're doing this using the frame-by-frame hack? Or at least, I hope you are.

saviorslegacy · Dec 13, 2009

Ankoku said:
Tester? I'm assuming you're doing this using the frame-by-frame hack? Or at least, I hope you are.

I have never been able to get that hack to work. -_-
I simply go into training, put it in 1/4 speed and do it over and over and over.
Then I look at the ratio and if I succeed more.
Then I make my judgment. I feel as if it is pretty accurate.

Also, I have them air dodging.

DanGR · Dec 13, 2009

How can you be certain that a combo is "frame perfect" if it's entirely guesswork?

I can give you my frame hack code if you want.

Zankoku · Dec 13, 2009

Yeah, I always find your research dubious when you cite your source as "testing in 1/4 speed with another human" due to the nature of 1/4 speed in Brawl and lack of actual frame data as backup. Reasons similar to the "dthrow can true combo at low percents" with whoever said it's citation being live play and I end up seeing that the opponent can airdodge before Sheik's throw animation even ends. Anyway, the main Wii I used for frametesting lost Homebrew due to the latest Wii Firmware to play NSMBW, so I'll try to run some testing on another one.

J4pu · Dec 13, 2009

um, it's basically impossible to conclude true combo ability from what training mode says, I mean having a helper spamming AD and DI'ing different ways helps, but it's not like melee where if the consecutive hit counter went up it meant it combos due to brawl's mechanics of being able to do stuff before hitstun ends.

anyways having some research done is better than having none.

do it with frame by frame hack next time, nobody will have any problems believing it then

also isn't training mode different in some (small) ways than normal multiplayer? And I mean other than stale moves, I thought minor differences were found outside of this that could possibly affect it.

Since grab releases aren't dmg or DI dependent tho I guess it shouldn't change much.

j0s3ph · Dec 13, 2009

saviorslegacy said:
Who is your thread on?
If you really want to be blown away look at the Bowser boards thread. <,<
Oh how I envy his 10 less frames out of a grab release.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=249620

saviorslegacy · Dec 13, 2009

Ankoku said:
Yeah, I always find your research dubious when you cite your source as "testing in 1/4 speed with another human" due to the nature of 1/4 speed in Brawl and lack of actual frame data as backup. Reasons similar to the "dthrow can true combo at low percents" with whoever said it's citation being live play and I end up seeing that the opponent can airdodge before Sheik's throw animation even ends. Anyway, the main Wii I used for frametesting lost Homebrew due to the latest Wii Firmware to play NSMBW, so I'll try to run some testing on another one.

1/4 speed is like frame by frame but just a little bit faster.

I used the training mode thing to test D-Throw> Uair.
I didn't know it was unreliable.

If you can get the hack to work and critique my work that'll be great.
(Yes I know that "that'll" isn't a word. Strangely enough, people in my area says it.)

J4pu said:
um, it's basically impossible to conclude true combo ability from what training mode says, I mean having a helper spamming AD and DI'ing different ways helps, but it's not like melee where if the consecutive hit counter went up it meant it combos due to brawl's mechanics of being able to do stuff before hitstun ends.

anyways having some research done is better than having none.

do it with frame by frame hack next time, nobody will have any problems believing it then

also isn't training mode different in some (small) ways than normal multiplayer? And I mean other than stale moves, I thought minor differences were found outside of this that could possibly affect it.

Since grab releases aren't dmg or DI dependent tho I guess it shouldn't change much.

I didn't say I used the training mode thing to test grab release. -_-
According to the training mode thing nothing combo's out of a grab release.

I slave my friends to help me test.
Which is now why I almost get nothing done because they hate it. Every time I say "hey come here I need your help with something" I get silence or "STFU! I'm not helping you test anymore!!!!!".
Between the Swan Combo and the final analysis of the Saltus combo + a bunch of RNDM stuff..... they hate me.

Zankoku · Dec 13, 2009

saviorslegacy said:
1/4 speed is like frame by frame but just a little bit faster.

lol, no. Frame-by-frame means it goes forward a frame every time you press the Z button. 1/4 speed means it goes forward a frame every 1/15 of a second. There's a pretty big difference there. I can get like five times as much SDI frame-by-frame as I can in 1/4 speed.

J4pu · Dec 13, 2009

with the frame-by-frame hack you don't need friends

to test

^ sig-worthy, yes?

Zankoku · Dec 15, 2009

Sheik has to be frame-perfect to hit Luigi with a fair if he doesn't air-dodge in a 2-3 frame window. Sheik needs to buffer a dash, jump on frame 18, and fair immediately after she leaves the ground to be frame perfect. Luigi can just mash L and R and hope for the best.

I didn't mess with the rest because I still can't figure out how to DACUS with frame hack, but I can make a guess based on this test that your 1/4 speed wasn't entirely accurate.

Judo777 · Dec 15, 2009

DanGR said:
Infinite on Ness? (Ground Release->pivotgrab + GR->grab)

And is there anything Sheik can do out of a ground release to Lucas? I was sure that he suffered a similar fate on the grab release shenanigans... not as severally, but still. Anything? ;/

No we cant infinite ness or lucas simply because we cant always force the ground break cause sheiks pummel is too slow.

However we do have some pretty gay crap on lucas. If you grab him pummel and when he ground breaks ftilt > regrab if he does air break we can on reaction run and regrab i dont even think it requires the boost, finish it all off with air rlease to DACUS

<π · Dec 16, 2009

um... 1/4ths speed in training mode is still 60 frames pre-second.

I think a lot of weird stuff happens in 1/4ths you can input comands four times faster than you can normally or input inbetween frames. I'd bet frame data is way different than simplely "times 4" on the conversion as well.

J4pu · Dec 16, 2009

I think <3 is right about 1/4 speed it always caused problems for me the few times I used it, like failing to accept commands I input, expecially from the cstick for some reason. It's just really weird, I wouldn't rely on it too heavily.

saviorslegacy · Dec 9, 2010

Alright, it is updated and should be 100% legit covering everything from slants, to frame traps, to ledge releasing and normal air releasing. I am so glad this is finished!
Look it over and tell me if I got anything wrong.

-Mars- · Dec 9, 2010

Good work man, pivot grab infinite doesn't work on Wario though unless you catch him out of his double jump.

phi1ny3 · Dec 9, 2010

I really should teach you frame advance, you'll like what you can do with testing through it.

Now I just need to find some spare time :\

saviorslegacy · Dec 9, 2010

-Mars- said:
Good work man, pivot grab infinite doesn't work on Wario though.

Oops sorry, that was left over from last year and I forgot to remove it.

I was mainly focusing on frame traps and things that you can do at the ledge. I am wondering about buffered Vanish glide right now so IDK.... maybe a good mix up.

@philnye
The only thing left on my list is jab frame advantage. The second jab is not set so you can do stuff at higher percents that you can't at lower percents.
Well, that and the smash lab needs Sheiks frame data. So I guess I'll do both. -_-

lol, then the rest is up to you guys, the community.... to help me finishing these discussions.

riocosta123 · Dec 10, 2010

durr

10durrs

saviorslegacy · Dec 10, 2010

riocosta123 said:
durr

10durrs

Ah, one of those posts.
*open mouth, insert foot

:EDIT:
Here's an example of the Fox thing that I mentioned in the OP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUlE-WQQuck

riocosta123 · Dec 10, 2010

Yeah, the Diddy picture didn't load for some reason and I was all "weres diddy."

-Mars- · Dec 20, 2010

So you can just regrab the EB twins after pummeling them into a ground break?

Lol. I'm not losing to them ever again.

How far does Sheik slide forward when she does it? Like how many regrabs could you get the length of FD?

Judo777 · Dec 20, 2010

-Mars- said:
So you can just regrab the EB twins after pummeling them into a ground break?

Lol. I'm not losing to them ever again.

How far does Sheik slide forward when she does it? Like how many regrabs could you get the length of FD?

probably like 10 if you started at 1 end. But its easier to ground release ftilt > regrab then you don't even move.

-Cross- · Dec 20, 2010

Too bad Sheik's pummel speed is slow, so they still have a chance to air release. So Lucas is the only one that gets truly owned by this.

-Mars- · Dec 20, 2010

Also I thought we had DACUS on Charizard if he air releases?

-Mars- · Dec 23, 2010

DACUS does NOT work on Fox, Wolf, Falco,.......they all fall way too fast.

-Cross- · Dec 24, 2010

Can't we regrab? I know Snake can GR CG Falco so against Falco couldn't we also get a grab?

<π · Dec 25, 2010

you get dash attack on falco. maybe you can boost grab falco? I doubt it.

you do get a dacus on air release Charizard and DK and D3 and snake and diddy and a unch of people. but air releases aren't gonna happen very frequently in these match ups against people who know about it. I.E. even in high level play you'll only get it maybe once a game... maybe 2 times in a set? still you know how to grdacus one person you know how to do it to every one.

-Mars- · Dec 27, 2010

<3 said:
you get dash attack on falco. maybe you can boost grab falco? I doubt it.

you do get a dacus on air release Charizard and DK and D3 and snake and diddy and a unch of people. but air releases aren't gonna happen very frequently in these match ups against people who know about it. I.E. even in high level play you'll only get it maybe once a game... maybe 2 times in a set? still you know how to grdacus one person you know how to do it to every one.

A lot of high level players don't visit character boards/ care about SHeik so you'd be surprised. Also, I think you have to vary the timings on some of them like Mario, Pika, and Popo are different distances compared to MK.

<π · Dec 27, 2010

they are slightly different but in my experience its all the same they leave the grab you dacus as soon as possible.

the COMPLETE grab release thread

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