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Bone Counts & Minimum Bone Requirements

AMKalmar

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
887
Location
Hamilton ON CA
I am attempting to find the conditions that allow models to be successfully swapped. If you have any information related to this topic please post it.

Eldiran came up with a theory as to why certain characters can not be model swapped:
I [suspect] that one of the BoneIndexes on the Alloys is treated by the game as essential, and thus, anything replacing the alloy must have a BoneIndex of that value. Effectively, there may be a minimum number of bones required.
Bone Count Lists
Number of Bones - Name

Playable Characters
Code:
34 - Green Alloy
34 - Red Alloy
34 - Yellow Alloy
39 - Blue Alloy
46 - Ice Climbers
46 - Olimar
47 - Squirtle
48 - Pikachu
48 - Pokemon Trainer
48 - Samus
55 - Ivysaur
56 - Lucario
58 - Charizard
61 - Kirby
63 - Donkey Kong
63 - Luigi
63 - Mario
63 - Sheik
64 - King Dedede
64 - Jigglypuff
65 - Captain Falcon
65 - Lucas
67 - Ness
67 - Zero Suit Samus
68 - Fox
69 - Wario Man
70 - Ganondorf
70 - Snake
71 - Diddy Kong
71 - Marth
72 - Falco
73 - Wolf
74 - Giga Bowser
74 - Ike
77 - Bowser
77 - Metaknight
78 - Yoshi
79 - Wario
80 - Link
83 - Sonic
83 - Toon Link
92 - Pit
98 - Mr. Game & Watch
104 - Zelda
106 - Peach
163 - R.O.B.
NPCs
Code:
5 - Shy Guy Racer
7 - Andross
7 - Greap Axe
8 - Autolance Lance
8 - Bombed Head
8 - Godro
9 - Jyk
10 - Autolance Head
10 - Waddle Dee
11 - Cupid
11 - Waddle Doo
12 - Autolance Tread
12 - Bytan
12 - Condor
12 - Mite
12 - Rope Snake
13 - Gulpin
14 - Cymul
14 - Pikmin
15 - Metal Gear Rex
16 - Roturret
17 - F.L.U.D.D.
17 - Jill & Drill Dozer
17 - Roader
18 - Armank Arm
18 - Giant Goomba
18 - Magnezone
19 - Bullet Bill
19 - Coffee Table
19 - Gamyga Base
19 - Resetti
20 - Kyogre
20 - Onion
20 - Stafy
21 - Fish
21 - Metroid
22 - Pig
22 - Buckot
22 - Greap
23 - Autolance
23 - Bucculus
23 - Metal Gear Gekko
23 - Poppant
24 - Gamyga
24 - Glice, Glire, Glunder
24 - Knuckles
24 - Nintendog HQ
24 - Silver
24 - Tails
25 - Bike
25 - Shadow
25 - Togepi
26 - Borboras
26 - Colin
26 - Custom Robo
26 - Electrode
27 - Trowlon
28 - Jeff
28 - Puppit
28 - Tingle
28 - Wright
29 - Bombed
29 - Cyborg
29 - Little Mac
29 - Manaphy
30 - Barbara
30 - King Bulbin
30 - Meowth
30 - Porkybot
30 - Samurai Goroh
31 - Chicorita
31 - Floow
31 - Katana pink
31 - Katana Ana orange
31 - Petey Piranha
31 - Porky Statue
31 - Waddle Dees Carrying Chair
32 - Hammer Bro
32 - Petey Piranha Left Arm
32 - Saki
32 - Towtow
32 - Waluigi
32 - Weavile
33 - Armight
33 - Cresselia
33 - Goomba
33 - Klap Trap
33 - Munchlax
33 - Shaydas
33 - Ticken
33 - Wobuffet
34 - Deoxys
34 - Metal Gear Ray
34 - Paratroopa
35 - Nitendog
35 - Polar Bear
35 - Starmie
36 - Knuckle Joe
36 - Master Hand
36 - Piplup
36 - Torchic
37 - Auroros
37 - Ho-Oh
37 - Nagagog
37 - Petey Piranha Right Arm
38 - Bellossom
38 - Celebi
38 - Crazy Hand
38 - Jerachi
38 - Ultimate Chimera
39 - Gardevior
39 - Groudon
39 - Lugia
39 - Spaak
40 - Devil
40 - Mew
40 - Whispy
41 - Bulbin
41 - Entei
42 - Azelf
42 - Drifbloon
42 - Robin
43 - Armank
43 - Lin
43 - Metagross
43 - Uxie
44 - Primid
44 - Snover
45 - Bonsly
45 - Snorlax
46 - Moltres
48 - Hoppip
49 - Chozo Statue
49 - Lord Bullbo
52 - Feyesh
52 - Suicune
53 - Latias & Latios
54 - Cubone
54 - Robot
56 - Parasite Queen
61 - Porky
61 - Snorunt
63 - Dugtrio
64 - Shellpod
65 - Duon
67 - Electrivire
71 - Mesprit
76 - Rayquaza
91 - Palkia
92 - Galleom
94 - Dalgia
95 - Bulborb
97 - Skarmory
106 - Meta Ridley
115 - Ridley
146 - Taboo
Relevant Model Swapping Test Results
Number of Bones - Name

Successfully Loaded
Froze while loading the match
All others are untested and/or irrelevant.

30 - Meowth
Red Alloy
Yellow Alloy


30 - Barbara
Yellow Alloy
Red Alloy

31 - Porky Statue
Red Alloy
Yellow Alloy


32 - Hammer Bro
Green Alloy

33 - Munchlax
Green Alloy

35 - Polar Bear
Blue Alloy

36 - Torchic
Blue Alloy
Ice Climbers

37 - Ho-Oh
Ice Climbers

38 - Bellossom
Olimar

39 - Gardevoir
Olimar
Pikachu

40 - Mew
Pikachu

43 - Lin
Samus
Diddy Kong


44 - Snover
Samus
Diddy Kong

44 - Primid
Green Alloy
Red Alloy
Yellow Alloy
Blue Alloy
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Pikachu
Samus
Diddy Kong


54 - Cubone
Green Alloy
Red Alloy
Yellow Alloy
Blue Alloy
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Squirtle
Pikachu
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Ivysaur
Lucario
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Luigi
Mario
Sheik
Lucas
Fox
Diddy Kong
Wolf


Minimum Bone Requirement List
Bones Required to Replace - Name
Code:
30 - Yellow Alloy ?
31 - Red Alloy
33 - Green Alloy
36 - Blue Alloy
37 - Ice Climbers
39 - Olimar
40 - Pikachu
44 - Samus
44 - Diddy Kong ?
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
Is there any model out there (AT, Pokemon, etc) that has the exact same number of bones as any of the playable characters (including Alloys)?

Go ROB! #1 for da bones.
 

AMKalmar

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
887
Location
Hamilton ON CA
It only took about an hour each ... I think. I wasn't really keeping track of time. I'll be describing my method when I post the codes.
 

FrozenHobo

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
5,272
Location
Nowhere Land
hmm... cubone seems to be working well with a lot of characters... maybe he could be the next project following waluigi's completion...
 

Rodo_Ganon

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
9
What i've tested so far...

Electivire works in DK
Entei works in Red Alloy and Olimar
 

n64billy

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
614
Location
Behind you!
What i've tested so far...

Electivire works in DK
Entei works in Red Alloy and Olimar
When you say Electivire works on DK, you mean he just loads..? Because Electivires bones are named/arranged different, so the animations won't work unless you change them.

If Electivire fully works on DK, then I'll put him on top of DK
 

Rodo_Ganon

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
9
Electivire fully works on DK
he successfully can go through the match and back to the CSS without any problems..

the only problem is his texture.. it shows up... a little messed up..
in any case i can upload my electivire files if u want it
 

n64billy

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
614
Location
Behind you!
I have my own Electivire files over Red Alloy that I've spent the night animating... (Hence my Avatar)
Quick picture showing that he loads correctly, and that his Wait1 animation works fine


I'm currently in the process of.... 'obtaining'... myself a copy of Brawl in NTSC so that I can start testing out things without having to resort to dolphin.
Does he just stand there T-Posed on DK, or do animations work?
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
We should get a list of all the models in the game and the # of bones for each. Then we can find the one with the most bones and match it up with a character that has the same # of bones.
 

AMKalmar

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
887
Location
Hamilton ON CA
Well, as you can see by the Cubone data they don't necessarily have to match up but the number of bones does have some effect. I'm working on a list of the number of bones for all Assist Trophies, Pokemon, and Stage Characters (includes vs stages, sse enemies, and bosses).
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
lol ok i tried putting deoxys over red alloy and previewing in brawlbox did nothing but move him around in a t pose. hes just too awkward to try and go over a humanoid.
 

Shinobi_3

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
17
isaac

worked over red alloy
failed over pit

knuckle joe

worked over green alloy

little mac

failed over yellow alloy

grey fox

failed over blue alloy
 

ThatGuyYouMightKnow

Smash Champion
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
2,373
Location
Baltimore, MD
Like I said in the BrawlBox thread,

Something's led me to assume Green Alloy, or ZakoBall, might be the best to replace. He/she/it was the only one who Joe worked on PERFECTLY with no glitches, mishaps or anything. I want to test this very quickly; Maybe Green Alloy is the best for this. He has the least bones after all.

Then again, Hammer Bro didn't work on him. And Cubone works on multiple characters?

Otherwise, this is very interesting. I'll keep my eye on this.

I know it's early, but a thought I had due to YOUR information, OP, was that characters with more bones fit on characters with less than theirs better than characters that have more. It's only Hammer Bro and Cubone though.
 

ThatGuyYouMightKnow

Smash Champion
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
2,373
Location
Baltimore, MD
Yeah, that's how it appears at this point. As soon as I finish the bone count list I'll test a few more characters.
To support this idea, Tabuu works on EVERYONE so far. He has 146 bones. I haven't tested other high bone count characters, like ROB. I'll do so now.

Bossempackun (Petey Pirahna, lol wierd name) doesn't even work on Alloys. I haven't done ATs or Pokemon just yet. I knew bosses worked but I wanted this confirmed.
 

Angelglory

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
748
Location
East Coast, US
NNID
Angelglory
3DS FC
2750-1110-8929
Anyone mind testing to see who Pokemon Trainer works over? I know he works on Yellow Alloy and I know he doesn't work on Pit, but I don't really have time to test him on anyone else.
 

MasterScrub

M O N A D O B O Y S
Joined
Sep 16, 2007
Messages
42
Location
Glitch City
NNID
MasterScrub
Knuckle Joe definitely works best over Green Alloy. I've been working on him for awhile now, and Green Alloy has given me no problems, other then trying to figure out how the hell to give him B moves, ledgegrabbing, and shielding.
 

superyoshi888

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
1,026
Eh...guess not. I can't really do so atm, cause I have midterms to study for. In particular, Japanese. I NEED TO GET A FREAKING C(or at least a D) OR ELSE I SHALL HAVE CRUSHED MY HOPES OF NOT FAILING THIS SEMESTER.

Actually, gonna fail anyways....but this exam is like really important and stuff.

EDIT: Since I doubt this'll work on a normal character without major animation editing, I might just swap it with like the drifloon on PS2 or something.
 

joem3693

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
142
Location
new york
can anyone tell me if little mac works on any characters ? because i keep on trying and failing
 

NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
429
Location
Puerto Rico
for some reason, the ZakoChildMotion.pac is not doing anything

I gave changes not on he's textures, but on all he's jabs, tilts, smashes and aerials

and, they didn't work, I thought that changing the name to motionetc.pac would fix it, but now the game freezes on the CSS

can someone go to the B+ chat or PM me with what I may be doing wrong?

I'm trying to make an emerl moveset for the alloy, so plz, feedback would be welcome
 

leafbarrett

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
1,388
Location
USA
Can someone test to see if Gardevoir or Mew works on ANY non-Alloy character? I can do animations or whatever, but when it comes to model swapping, even though I can technically swap, I can't do anything with it. I'm worried I'm doing something wrong.
 

AMKalmar

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
887
Location
Hamilton ON CA
Well, you missed Lakitu and Spiny:

Lakitu- 8
Spiny- 8
I chose to remove all the 2D characters. Oh, just remembered I forgot the smashville characters. I'm going to need someone to name all those animal crossing characters for me. I don't know animal crossing.

17 - Jill & Drill Dozer
Code:
[COLOR="Red"]34 - Green Alloy
34 - Red Alloy
34 - Yellow Alloy
39 - Blue Alloy[/COLOR]

All Others
I'll be testing the others later.
Thanks for the help! I won't be adding this to the OP however since I don't want it to get cluttered. Red and Yellow Alloys can take 31 bones but not 30. I don't think further proof is needed.
 

superyoshi888

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
1,026
Has anyone looked into article model swaps yet? I had an idea for a Kirby hack, but it would require swapping with either the Hammer or the Final Cutter, and I want to know at least how many bones are required.
 

leafbarrett

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
1,388
Location
USA
Has anyone looked into article model swaps yet? I had an idea for a Kirby hack, but it would require swapping with either the Hammer or the Final Cutter, and I want to know at least how many bones are required.
...Quick guess. Sword?
If you plan on doing Ganon's sword, it works perfectly. I already did it.
And I can't find the blade for Final Cutter anywhere, only the shockwave.
 

Nerd With An Afro

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 23, 2009
Messages
283
Location
Lancaster PA
not sure if this helps, but the bone limit would also apply to other things, such as menu and the strap loader.
I tried swapping lugia with the strap loader and it miraculously worked.
here is what happened http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCGOv8usj10
*the texture didnt map correctly but that was my fault for placing it in the wrong directory.*
That means that the menus may be like the alloys, having the most swap-ability. not sure though.
 
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