Match up disagreements: Wolf!

OverLade · Jan 7, 2010

Videos =/= matchups. Ally doesn't play like most snake players so it's not representative of what the matchup looks like at all.

And also, who's working harder in the matches, DEHF or Ally? You also have to keep that in mind when determining the matchup. Saying "DEHF beat Ally" so it must be even is ridiculous. I'm not saying it is or it isn't even I'm saying that's not the right kind of rational.

6Mizu · Jan 7, 2010

Yumewomiteru said:
DEHF says it's even so it's even, or do I need to pull out a couple of old vids from Activegamers?

No, don't do that, I've already seen it most likely. :laugh:

RedHalberd said:
Videos =/= matchups. Ally doesn't play like most snake players so it's not representative of what the matchup looks like at all.

And also, who's working harder in the matches, DEHF or Ally? You also have to keep that in mind when determining the matchup. Saying "DEHF beat Ally" so it must be even is ridiculous. I'm not saying it is or it isn't even I'm saying that's not the right kind of rational.

Yes, I know, but Ally is my idol. So it's I'll easily believe what he says.

Yumewomiteru · Jan 7, 2010

DEHF posted that its even on Falco boards and wrote a long comprehensive statement on why it is even, and I read it and believe it 100%.

Thats why I believe its even, not just because I'm meat riding.

Attila_ · Jan 7, 2010

luke_atyeo said:
so we all know about snakes chainthrow on falco, but damage wise it does very little, if we chain him out over the edge though, what options do we have? if we spaced it right would a run off double jump uair be fast enough to be in-escapable? what other gay things can we do?

?

have you gone mad? dthrow of course. cg to edge, dthrow = easier tech chase or guaranteed ftilt/utilt. it actually changes things quite a bit. although platforms get in the way in a lot of places.

6Mizu · Jan 7, 2010

Yumewomiteru said:
DEHF posted that its even on Falco boards and wrote a long comprehensive statement on why it is even, and I read it and believe it 100%.

Thats why I believe its even, not just because I'm meat riding.

Ohh.....you shoulda said that. :laugh:

Don't get

with me for inferring.
<3 Yume.

Hope everyone's happy you guys got me to believe.
I believe it's even then.

Yink · Jan 7, 2010

RocketPSIence said:
Hey, I'd like to point out that for the MOTHER boys the ratios should be worse by about five points. Me and Yink have talked about our MU's with Snake. There's little for us to against your camping and if you grab us at 100 we're autodead with GR into U-tilt.

Lucas Vs. Snake: 30:70

I won't give anything definite for Ness, I'd rather let Yink do that.

He's right...I'd bet it more around 35:65 too. When you guys start to talk about Ness vs Snake instead of the Falco one right now, I'll come back and explain why I think that is. There is in NO way possible it is that even. Our MU right now has 60:40 and I still think that's wrong.

Sorry to be off topic, I was dragged into this, haha.

RATED · Jan 7, 2010

first instead of just numbers, let's talk about :

who has the better options in certain situations? like edgeguarding,being at short , mid or long range. things like how each other can limit each others options?

what they lack against that character?

what's their strong point against that character if there any?

stages?

who efforts the most in the Matchup? (that's not to be confused about who won or lose)

how can these characters obtain back those options that he could lose at certain point of the match?

Berserker. · Jan 8, 2010

Thanks for the layout RATED. So will we keep talking about the MU or go somewhere else?

I'll take Falco as a 50:50.

The next discussion will be Ice Climbers

then after we're done with ICs we'll go over Lucas

luke_atyeo · Jan 8, 2010

shmot said:
have you gone mad?

yes, yes I have, all the scrubs that have taken over the snake boards are making my head spin.

I suppose that works, but it'd better if we had an off stage option imo, that way a grab in the center of the stage could lead to a garanteed kill at like 80/90% if we did, dthrow is good too sure, but I'm looking for something reliable, too many people are figuring out snakes dthrow ****.

Prawn · Jan 8, 2010

ICs snake is a lot closer to even then a lot of you snake mains believe,

we juggle snakes hardcore, there are chain grabs that get away from nades if you pull them safely, SoPo can CG you guys to like 50ish pretty easily, and you can't really dthrow techchase when we have both climbers

that being said you can do a lot of gay **** to us too.

I'd say 55:45 snakes favor.

Attila_ · Jan 8, 2010

luke_atyeo said:
yes, yes I have, all the scrubs that have taken over the snake boards are making my head spin.

I suppose that works, but it'd better if we had an off stage option imo, that way a grab in the center of the stage could lead to a garanteed kill at like 80/90% if we did, dthrow is good too sure, but I'm looking for something reliable, too many people are figuring out snakes dthrow ****.

grab release from middle of fd to the end, dthrow, guanranteed ftilt is about 40%. thats pretty amazing. grab release to mine to re-grab is also guaranteed, which is nice if you can set it up. not sure about grab release to c4, but i wouldnt rule it out. ive got no one to test it with, but i think it makes sense.

either way, guaranteed 40% is pretty nice. you might even regrab. and if he's at kill percents, he cant avoid utilt unless you stuff up. dont stuff up, please

Prawn said:
ICs snake is a lot closer to even then a lot of you snake mains believe,

we juggle snakes hardcore, there are chain grabs that get away from nades if you pull them safely, SoPo can CG you guys to like 50ish pretty easily, and you can't really dthrow techchase when we have both climbers

that being said you can do a lot of gay **** to us too.

I'd say 55:45 snakes favor.

main snake, second ics. played the mu from both sides at competitive level. its 60:40 ics imo. ftilt is faster than nana's shield, pivot grab bthrow is a nightmare if it gets popo. nana gets fsmashed...

ill write more later.

OverLade · Jan 8, 2010

If every IC player played like Kakera It would probably be 50-50 if not in IC's favor.

Once again I think this is a highly undeveloped matchup, especially from the ICs side (But IC's in general are highly underdeveloped). I think at the moment it's probably 55-44 or mabye even 60-40 but I think ICs have the potential to push it to 50-50. Just no IC's player in the US has really developed "approaching" with IC's very well yet. See video for what I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCsb78o6mHY

Berserker. · Jan 8, 2010

I think it's a 60:40 for now.

ICs aren't really developing the MU that well like what redhalberd said. I heard the IC boards were pretty dead so for now it's 60:40 Snake but lets see what we can find that proves the MU as only a 55:45

For now, we should observe videos of Snake VS ICs

etecoon · Jan 8, 2010

IC's are 55:45 snake IMO, IC's have so much untapped potential, tbh meta is the only one I feel cleanly beats them.

swordgard · Jan 8, 2010

RedHalberd said:
If every IC player played like Kakera It would probably be 50-50 if not in IC's favor.

Once again I think this is a highly undeveloped matchup, especially from the ICs side (But IC's in general are highly underdeveloped). I think at the moment it's probably 55-44 or mabye even 60-40 but I think ICs have the potential to push it to 50-50. Just no IC's player in the US has really developed "approaching" with IC's very well yet. See video for what I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCsb78o6mHY

Wrong, kakera does not know how to play the matchup. Nor does that snake actually. THey are playing it terribly wrong tbh. I cant even count the amount of mistakes they did in 1 minute.

Its still 50-50 dead even.

6Mizu · Jan 8, 2010

This MU is definitely EVEN. No arguments about it.
EVEN.

OverLade · Jan 8, 2010

swordgard said:
Wrong, kakera does not know how to play the matchup. Nor does that snake actually. THey are playing it terribly wrong tbh. I cant even count the amount of mistakes they did in 1 minute.

Its still 50-50 dead even.

I hear you're knowledgeable in the matchup so I'm going to assume you know what you're talking about, but what Kakera is doing is clearly very smart. I've never seen you play it though, do you have any videos versus Ally/top snakes?

Rubberbandman · Jan 8, 2010

swordgard said:
Wrong, kakera does not know how to play the matchup. Nor does that snake actually. THey are playing it terribly wrong tbh. I cant even count the amount of mistakes they did in 1 minute.

Its still 50-50 dead even.

Yeah, that match up looked like they were both just stumbling around in the first place.

Its either even or 55-45 snake. I just feel the nades and other traps could really get in the way of Icies.

swordgard · Jan 8, 2010

RedHalberd said:
I hear you're knowledgeable in the matchup so I'm going to assume you know what you're talking about, but what Kakera is doing is clearly very smart. I've never seen you play it though, do you have any videos versus Ally/top snakes?

Airdodging into the ground, B reversal with nades when its not safe to, no uptilt to beat side B, no backthrow to forward smash, no falling back air against nana as she passes by too fast for fsmash. Trying to mix up forward tilt with something else? Not safe, Forward tilt is very unsafe vs ics if they are running at you. Blizzard? Snake can space nades to hit ics when its alternated. Ice blocks? Ftilt through or power shield, minor inconveniance.

No solo chain grab, no infinite... For the amount of grabs kakera got in(and he should not have for most of them if Snake played better vs ics), that was ridiculously low damage output.

napZzz · Jan 8, 2010

ic's vs. snake is even, but alot of scrub ic's think its not. theres a perfect example of some guy disagreeing with me earlier in this thread. That same person lost to a ganondorf (with ic's) at the tourney we were both at. LOL

inb4lurker

luke_atyeo said:
yes, yes I have, all the scrubs that have taken over the snake boards are making my head spin.

QFT x1000000000 btw

Yumewomiteru · Jan 8, 2010

Its even huh..... any proofs?

ErikG · Jan 8, 2010

Yumewomiteru said:
Its even huh..... any proofs?

IC have their infinite obviously, and Snake's weight makes him a little easier to chain grab. Even if they cannot kill him out of the grab, they'll still rack up a huge amount of damage. I do not know too much about the ICs, so I wouldn't know what else they have going in this match up.

Snake is beastly when it comes to his power output. Combine that with Nana's poor AI and Snake can easily separate and possibly kill her off. Grenades out-preform ice blocks IMO, so you get to force them to approach. Also, pulling a nade just before they get the grab on you is life saving.

This match definitely feels even, where either characters' mistakes gets punished easily. In this match, you do not really care about damage (Snake lives forever anyways), you only care about not getting grabbed.

Teh Future · Jan 8, 2010

-NaPPy said:
ic's vs. snake is even, but alot of scrub ic's think its not. theres a perfect example of some guy disagreeing with me earlier in this thread. That same person lost to a ganondorf (with ic's) at the tourney we were both at. LOL

inb4lurker

QFT x1000000000 btw

LOL

10cats

Berserker. · Jan 8, 2010

How about Snake's superior camping/defense to ICs limited/poor approach?

How do they solve the approach then

Yumewomiteru · Jan 8, 2010

I still don't get when Snake went from ICs worst matchup to going even with them.

Berserker. · Jan 8, 2010

The MU is underdeveloped >_>

Attila_ · Jan 9, 2010

Yumewomiteru said:
I still don't get when Snake went from ICs worst matchup to going even with them.

this is what i dont understand either. its not like the ics boards have been busy; they're even more dead then we are. not sure at all where this is coming from.

ErikG said:
IC have their infinite obviously, and Snake's weight makes him a little easier to chain grab. Even if they cannot kill him out of the grab, they'll still rack up a huge amount of damage. I do not know too much about the ICs, so I wouldn't know what else they have going in this match up.

Snake is beastly when it comes to his power output. Combine that with Nana's poor AI and Snake can easily separate and possibly kill her off. Grenades out-preform ice blocks IMO, so you get to force them to approach. Also, pulling a nade just before they get the grab on you is life saving.

This match definitely feels even, where either characters' mistakes gets punished easily. In this match, you do not really care about damage (Snake lives forever anyways), you only care about not getting grabbed.

have you ever played a competitive ic? like seriously, ever? almost everything written here is completely wrong and misleading to other snake players.

1. snake is one of the hardest to chaingrab (ever tried it?)
2. snake has bthrow to seperate, and perhaps dair (dangerous as) but very little else in the way of seperation. most chars seperate ics from spaced aerials, and snake lacks in this department.
3. grenades force an approach, but only up to blizzard range. what does snake do then?
4. pulling a nade wont help you against a good ic. dthrow to pivot dthrow gets both climbers out of blast range.
5. its not even. you said you dont know much about them. stop pretending that you do.

seriously, perhaps this is a little harsh, but IF YOU HAVENT GOT MUCH EXPERIENCE IN A MU, DONT FEEL LIKE YOU HAVE TO COMMENT ON IT. IT IS MISLEADING AND ACTUALLY MAKES DISCUSSING THE MATCHUP PROPERLY HARDER AND LESS EFFICIENT.

god it makes me rage. luke is right. the snake boards have been taken over by noobs. almost everytime i come here, i spend most of my posting time correcting stuff written by people who acknowledge that they dont know what theyre talking about. in the future, please save me the trouble.

in other news, thanks for the input swordgard, but could you link us to a video of an ic and snake playing each other properly then?

Berserker. · Jan 9, 2010

Finally! A top Snake who agrees that ICs is fairly easy!

Now I feel like it's a 70:30 or 60:40 Snake again!

Underload · Jan 9, 2010

I wouldn't touch on the ICs for too long. The Snake matchup thread is going onto Ice Climbers within the next few days.

It'll be boring to talk about the same thing twice.

Berserker. · Jan 9, 2010

Since the new MU thread (Your thread) came. I decided to let this thread uhhh.... get outdated but more people posted so...... I can't do anything with them -_-'

Underload · Jan 9, 2010

I'm not asking you to close it or anything! Low / mid tier stuff is actually really helpful since:

1. the regular MU thread won't be discussing those for a while
2. it educates Snake players about matchups they don't really know.

But, iunno, your thread, not mine. Won't tell you how to run it.

Berserker. · Jan 9, 2010

Oh okay...

Yumewomiteru · Jan 9, 2010

I suggest either Zss, Lucario, or TL

Attila_ · Jan 9, 2010

i lost pretty badly to a sheik recently, just had no idea what was going on or how i was suppose to play the mu. couldnt find any recent/good vids to judge the mu from either. discussing this would be helpful...

Yumewomiteru · Jan 9, 2010

^ Good idea, I never played against a good sheik so I wouldnt know what to do.

OverLade · Jan 9, 2010

I have a money match against Nick Riddle's ZSS that has yet to be uploaded that we could look at. I think it's 60-40 Snake personally. Toon Link would also be interesting.

swordgard · Jan 9, 2010

shmot said:
this is what i dont understand either. its not like the ics boards have been busy; they're even more dead then we are. not sure at all where this is coming from.

have you ever played a competitive ic? like seriously, ever? almost everything written here is completely wrong and misleading to other snake players.

1. snake is one of the hardest to chaingrab (ever tried it?)
2. snake has bthrow to seperate, and perhaps dair (dangerous as) but very little else in the way of seperation. most chars seperate ics from spaced aerials, and snake lacks in this department.
3. grenades force an approach, but only up to blizzard range. what does snake do then?
4. pulling a nade wont help you against a good ic. dthrow to pivot dthrow gets both climbers out of blast range.
5. its not even. you said you dont know much about them. stop pretending that you do.

seriously, perhaps this is a little harsh, but IF YOU HAVENT GOT MUCH EXPERIENCE IN A MU, DONT FEEL LIKE YOU HAVE TO COMMENT ON IT. IT IS MISLEADING AND ACTUALLY MAKES DISCUSSING THE MATCHUP PROPERLY HARDER AND LESS EFFICIENT.

god it makes me rage. luke is right. the snake boards have been taken over by noobs. almost everytime i come here, i spend most of my posting time correcting stuff written by people who acknowledge that they dont know what theyre talking about. in the future, please save me the trouble.

in other news, thanks for the input swordgard, but could you link us to a video of an ic and snake playing each other properly then?

Unfortunately since I did not see meep play the matchup particularly well nha.

I play Dom(2nd best snake in quebec) and beat ally in tourney before, but unfortunately videos kinda did not get recorded. Next tourney they will. TBH I am near 100% sure that most other people who say its even have no idea why, in order for ics to go even with snake they need to know the matchup perfectly. It is a lot easier to learn the matchup as snake than as ics, but the end result is that they both go even. The thing is, meep lost to ally and a couple of other snakes. Lain doesnt bother going ics vs snakes. Kakera and shuu both play the matchup wrong. Theres plenty of vids of snakes playing the matchup well(look up ally vs meep, ally does it right without even camping, he said it was the first time he had to resort to camping vs me :S ).The problem is that since there are so few good ics players, and they don't apparently know the matchup that well you won't find vids of it.

Yumewomiteru · Jan 10, 2010

Please have some matches saved. If you need someone to record the replays you can send them to me. I am really interested in seeing what ICs can do to make this matchup even.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Jan 10, 2010

Yumewomiteru said:
Please have some matches saved. If you need someone to record the replays you can send them to me. I am really interested in seeing what ICs can do to make this matchup even.

For one, I say grab snake during his nade usage. CG away from a nade and ICs are golden. (do not pick FD against the ICs).

Yumewomiteru · Jan 10, 2010

But then Snake just have to be smart and not pull nades when close to the ICs. Its exact same concept as Dedede, nade camp when away, force the ICs to approach, and when the ICs approach dont pull nades and resort to other stuff.

Match up disagreements: Wolf!

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