Sheik *Needle Lock* the f-tilt extension

saviorslegacy said:

:shiek:

Fair makes him flip at: 59%

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J4pu said:

I think we need to get gimpyfish in here

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DanGR said:

Still, you can simply DI correctly to avoid this- that or tech... or perhaps airdodge even. <_< When all is said and done, and we're evaluating Sheik as a character years from now this won't even be consisdered. It'll be a nice little trick until everyone DIs it correctly. Besides that I doubt I'll see much more to come from this.

Also, by "flip" I'm assuming you mean the opponent being sent into the tumbling animation, right?

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stealth3654 said:

Have you tried this with the opponent DIing the fair and breaking out of the tumble with an aerial?

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Smasher89 said:

Lol, so the needlestorm makes you lag as long so it´s possible to ftilt right after?

Then I think the grabrelease>needles>ftilt>usmash might work on MK ...

EDIT: Second one might have oppoturnity for grab>dacu...

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-Mars- said:

K Saviors I actually decided to test for myself after you posted the video. Seems that after you force the get up you need to hit with the tip of the ftilt for it to lead right into an tipper........i had to work forward to hit with usmash if i hit closer with the ftilt.

Good stuff man, subscribed and i'll be looking more into this later...........For people doubting this I don't think they have the ability to tech if you hit with the needles storm in time.....but they can DI up after the fair I believe.

That being said nobody cares enough about Sheik to really pay much attention to this so i'm going to use it.

Also if you force a get up on MK or Pikachu or whoever we can GR>usmash on.....it's another guaranteed tipper.

Edit: Innocent Roads found this a long time ago I believe and I just never paid much attention to it but it's nice to take a second look at it and have some percents in one thread.

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Judo777 said:

How much decay are u using i didnt feel like testing for all decay i just did max, min and half max and half didnt work cause its not strong enough to hit into tumble animation. No decay worked but Im sorry to say it is very easy to tech i was doing 1 hand on each controller and i got the tech off effortlessly. Also just holding shield makes u airdodge then shield the needles.

All this said it is still a good find. It is a no risk high reward situation that forces ur oppoenent to make a decision and all of the techs did result in getting hit by needles or rolling right infront of sheik. Of course airdodge and shielding is the best answer. On a side note its worth a try but good players try to avoid bouncing off the ground at all costs (its like one of the worst positions in the game to be in) everyone i play almost never bounces unless forced to.

Again tho its a no-risk high-reward situation so why not.

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J4pu said:

good stuff savior, looks like a great attack string with only average chances of them getting out.
That's like brawl's equivalent of a melee tech-chase combo, so yeah, *thumb's up
specifically the Fair hitting a grounded opponent looks the best

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saviorslegacy said:

*sorry, but I had to cheat on the first night before I started Tristan


Anyways, I didn't decay it.
Did you follow up with Needle's by buffering? It should lower teching frames making it harder.
Not everyone can air dodge, and even more so, not everyone can air dodge when DIing up.

Actually, f-tilt> Fair> Needle Lock is the best since it starts from a f-tilt.
If done correctly it should be as effective as grounded Fair. On some characters you can lead into a Fair straight out of a f-tilt lock and it is a legit and tight. To bad I didn't show it in the vid. -_-

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thexsunrosered said:

Innocentroads did find this before. I remember watching it. Things like this is what I was talking about as far as community goes, we each know SO MANY little things that help out our individual game so much that if we brought it all together, we'd **** so hard.

For instance, if you Fthrow a falco at mid percents, 40-50ish, you can normally get a tipper off. This works for marth too that I'm sure of, I just haven't really played enough of anyone else to say otherwise. Little things like this will make us SOOOOO much better, which is why I keep telling you not to be so stingy saviors >.>

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saviorslegacy said:

I can honestly say that if Ankoku, Tristan and I put our heads together that we would have about 99.9% of all Sheik knowledge. <3 gets more than an honorable mention in this as well.

Now if you want my opinion then here it is:
You are correct and incorrect. Since Sheik is so flexible she can do many many things. There have been many things found that advance Sheik. If a single Sheik player mastered everything that Sheik had and could do it close to 100% of the time then he would practically be maining a high tier character. However, when you do not have your **** down Sheik is a low tier. The most important trixies that Sheik has are what will be listed below:

f-tilt lock
0 - 30% combo's/strings that can set up for f-tilt
Needle wave bouncing
out spacing with chain and punishing with chain
Predicting and punish with Vanish
DACUS
punishing attacks with DACUS, DA and Needle's
punishing anything they sets them up for tipper DACUS
chain locking
needle locking
spacing perfectly
needle camping
all GR options
knowing how to handle every stage
using a mixture of SH Nairs and jabs to overwhelm your foe with speed. You will be moving around quite well and everything will be 3 frames or less.
playing the throw games
transforming wisely
knowing how to use Zelda
using u-tilt as an anti air
knowing how to use her gimp tools on each match up
swan combo
saltus combo (for the few it does work on)
narutake step
Nair OoS
f-tilt OoS
DA OoS
baiting and punishing
Vanish buffering
vanish canceling
vanish combo
naner lock
naner combo's
instant wall jump and Bair planking
FH Needle Canceling
the knowledge on how to protect your weakness's


Once your learn all of those you will be a pro Sheik who take advantage off all of her tricks. Small tricks come from those. You can alter anything to be your own. These small variations and Sheik in general is like ad dance. You can do all of the basic stuff like normal, but when you throw in a bunch of fancy dance moves it makes you look better. Except with Sheik, it makes her more effective.
However, once you have learned how to penetrate ones weakness you have already won. Then you must protect your weakness's. Her special trixies are simply things to make you unpredictable.

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dMT MaNgA said:

So... one thing I never really looked into... when the opponents have flipped over and they get hit by needles, they lose the ability to roll right? Also they aren't able to react immediately when they stand up I presume, sicne the MK was up for a few frames before eating the ftilt > usmash tipper.

If this is true to the frames, I can see this helping my game significantly.

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-Mars- said:

Yes they are forced to do a straight get-up.

I've messed around with this and it still only works if your opponent for some reason decides not to tech which isn't often. This will help immensely against scrubs I suppose.

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saviorslegacy said:

I quit before I finished working on this.
The next thing I was going to post was the decay percents. With decay each move gives you a minus on when it can be used for this combo. Figure roughly -7 to -8 (this is attacking with the same move in a row) on each move per time that have used it to get it to combo correctly.
Also, the other thing I was going to post was that this can be started with Nair and Bair as well.
I can't remember exactly, but I think that Bair is the middle, Fair is the weak and Nair is the strong. Figure a 10% difference between each move.
So lets say that a non decayed Fair flips MK at 63%. A non decayed Bair will flip him at 53% and a non decayed Nair will flip him at 43%... give or take a few.

Now, if you attacked with a Nair at 38%, it should make them flip if you attack with Nair directly after this time because 38+(I think it does like 11.. right?)11= 49 which is close enough that it should make him flip.

Now lets be honest, how often will you hit with Bair, Nair or Fair frequently at the correct percents? A: Not terribly often. That is why I named this thread the f-tilt extension. What I was planning on getting at was the fact that it works perfectly fine out of a decayed f-tilt. Lets say you f-tilt MK at 30ish percents. Lets say that you do a bunch and end with a grab (less damage than DSmash or u-tilt) or simply shield and let him try to attack you (as so many people do). At 50% he needs 2, maybe 3 f-tilt to get him to the proper flipping percents. Simply end with a Fair, fast fall and lock him. If you fail you don't have to really worry because seriously, can he punish you throwing needles after he has been hit with a Fair? I tested it a little bit and my friend (if memory serves me correctly) was able to SDI up and try to use Uair but he still got hit by the needles.


If you were wondering... I was using this before I made the thread. I have used it against both CPU's and humans. It takes more discipline as far as knowing your numbers and attempting to commit to a combo that can very easily change (meaning they get out, you mess up or w/e). When all else fails... jabx2> grab. lol



Sorry for not having all of my info 100% (how much damage a move does right or when they absolutely flip) right now. But you all get the point I am trying to make, right?
Oh, and one more thing. Since you used f-tilt in this combo it is already decayed for f-tilt> USmash.


1 more thing that I forgot to mention.
If you hit them correctly you can't tech this. I was testing a while back (a looong while back) about how ground locks work. One of the thing I found was that you can start a ground lock animation 1 or 2 frames before they hit the actual ground. If you mess with Marth you can see this. Knock him on the ground and let him lie there and then throw your needles. If he is on his back and not his face every needle will miss him. Now if you catch him before he lays out flat almost every needle will hit him. If you hit him on that 1 to 2 frames window every needle will lock Marth.

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Judo777 said:

Interesting post however i gotta say i think ur mistaken about being able to lock him before he its the ground. Needle lock works just like a jab lock in that if u hit them with a certain type of hitbox (needles work obviously) during their bounce animation after tumble state they will repeat their bounce state until hit again or they will auto stand up. The window is bigger than you say for needle locks (id say about 10-12 frames). And u cannot needle lock someone who hasn't hit the ground because they haven't begun their bounce animation yet. Since that is the case this setup can ALWAYS be avoided with a well timed tech.

However that doesn't mean this setup isn't good. I use it all the its a great no risk high reward situation and i recommend looking for it always.

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saviorslegacy said:

I made a post listing every move that lock in the game. Ike's Fair also locks.
Here's the thing, any move that does not cause their feet to leave the ground locks. Sheiks jab causes the feet to barely leave the ground at every percent. This is a perfect example.

You are correct, locking them does make them repeat the animation where they hit the ground, but they cannot tech it.

There are two ways to make them get up.
#1 Lock them right after they hit the ground. If you let them lay on the ground for a little bit (and thus forfeiting the chance to make them stand up) you can still make them stand up by locking them ant interrupting their landing on a specific frame.
#2 Hit them with a strong locking move like Ike's Fair.


Notice how they repeat the falling animation but cannot tech it?
There is more to this mechanic than what we know of. For example, Pikachu can hit a waking opponent many times with one thunder (I couldn't find the vid, but requested it on the Pika boards). I think it has to deal with it being an electric hit box.
Anyways, you can pretty make this combo become a DI up or else combo. It is possible to keep from being locked. All you gotta do is DI up + an attack to get you out of the tumble. This combo might not even be effective on Marth. Thing is though, it is still a low risk high reward combo, and that is why I like it. And another thing, platform don't get in our way you stupid bat! YI and Starfox Armada does though.... stupid stage tilt. Owell, you can figure out those by a little bit of messing around and some quick math. Ground that goes up might help us some because it might make it to where they can't DI up to escape it.... to bad the needles might not hit them......


So you actually use this eh? cool

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Ankoku said:

I still disagree on the basis that if you hit them with the attack before they are able to tech, then they haven't yet reached the ground. Video proof for either side would be nice, so I might consider frame-testing it in the future.

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Ankoku said:

You can't tech from a footstool.

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Ankoku said:

You can't tech from a footstool.

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Judo777 said:

Saviours what hes saying is that footstools are the one excepetion in the game to teching. Every other instance where oab o other move locks exist can be teched.

So for instance fair to needles can be teched because u aren't footstooling them.

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-Mars- said:

I tried this out back when you first posted it. Doesn't work.

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