D-Throw tech frame data.

I thought I'd try to do something nice for the Holidays, or at the very least help around.

As I'm sure you're aware of (if not, better get soak this fact up), Sonic' D-Throw is real garbage. A move that punishes you for using it, what kind of drugs was Sakurai doing when he made some of the things Brawl has present? In any case, we have to live with it, and in most cases, not use it for fear of our opponent teching it, and punishing Sonic before he can react.

It does about 8% fresh, 2-3% if you (somehow) happen to grab your opponent 8-10 times without doing anything else, including pummeling. Tied with Sonic's B-Throw, this is his least-damaging throw. At least With B-Throw, Sonic is safe from retaliation, regardless of how the opponent DIs it. I would say there are only a few cases where it is Safe to use D-Throw, but those are one in a hundred.

With that said, find out what kind of habits your opponents has. If they fail to tech it, it's more or less alright to use it, but you are still better off using Forward or Up-Throw, because they do more damage, and U-Throw has the capability of killing opponents at stupidly high percentages; D-Throw offers neither regardless of whether or not your opponent techs it or not.

Now for the few safe occasions? Well, thanks to Kojin, he found out that if you manage to grab an opponent at the very edge of a 1-way platform (one where you go through it if you come from below, but you can't slip down from above. Think of Halberd/Deflino Plaza's main take-off platforms if you need examples.) and happen to be facing inwards (towards the platform, but even if you're facing away, it still acts like doing it over the edge), you can have your opponent try to DI down and tech it, but have them do it all in vein. I would also like to take this time to tell you that if you happen to grab King Dedede on the right side of Battlefield in this same manner, that if your opponent fails to tech that, he will get stage-spiked, and might end up dead in a strange manner. Beware though, as that itself can backfire too if your opponent is aware of this. I'm not sure how it can backfire, but you can still be denied a kill. Later on, I may find out, but this present/project will focus on D-Throw in normal circumstances. This also only works on the right side, Sakurai couldn't even get this stage symmetrical, even if you don't notice it.

Now with those disclaimers, I think it's time that I present (no pun intended) to you, the frame-data and just what exactly your opponent can do to you (if applicable).

All frame-data accounts assume that D-Throw is unstaled and will deal the full knockback at a given percentage unless stated otherwise.

General frame-data/facts/misc. things:

Time it takes Sonic to complete D-Throw and react: 87 frames.

Meta Knight:
Frame Advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +1
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Meta Knight's still broken. His attacks may be fast, but not fast enough to punish Sonic for using D-Throw. Do note however that his fastest attacks are Forward and Down Tilt, clocking at three frames. If you do anything but shield, you will take damage. Try and spotdodge and you may not get invulnerability fast enough/get read. Get predictable with shielding and you may just get grabbed by Meta Knight. Don't D-Throw against Meta Knight unless you know he can't tech it/doesn't react out of a tech properly, it's not worth trying to beat him at a game of fast attacks, Sonic sadly is only fast and deadly when he can run.

Snake:
Frame Advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +4
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Grenade/Jab.
Kinzer's personal comment: Snake, for being a powerhouse, isn't as fearsome here. He can pull out a Grenade and fling it at you, but bleh, you'll probable shrug that off and punish Snake since he still has to hold on to it or throw it at you, which take commitment. Jab probably won't kill you unless it's fresh or you're at the edge of a stage. Still, I would advise not D-Throwing Snake because you don't want to play with his minegames (pun totally intended).

Wario:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +4
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Watch out, just because he doesn't have anything guaranteed doesn't mean he can't grab or bite you, and if you're not fast enough; you'll get pooped on.

Falco:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +3
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Jab.
Kinzer's personal comment: His jab comes out on frame 2. Beware the follow-ups from the jab cancels, otherwise if they go through into the "machine-gun" portion of the jab, SDI into a Spring Jump. If that gets predictable, just try to back off. I think even trying to Spring Jump out of Falco's Jab-cancels will work, but don't quote me on that. Otherwise Falco doesn't have anything against you that will immediately show negative results.

Diddy Kong:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +4
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Jab.
Kinzer's personal comment: Diddy ain't got nothing else faster than 3 frames to take any serious advantage of this.

King Dedede
Frame Advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +4
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Heavy-Weight, Power-house, no relatively quick options. He has DTilt, which comes out of frame 7, and grab, which is frame 6, but still neither are really guaranteed if you play your cards right. However If you get caught in a grab, you're going to take heavy damage, and possibly die from it. Just get him away from you with another throw.

Marth:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +5
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Dancing Blade/Grab.
Kinzer's personal comment: Don't do it. Simple as that.

Mr. Game & Watch:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: -3
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Haha, does he think he can play the same game we can? No, actually; We can jab him if he tries to tech our D-Throw. Ah, it's gonna feel so good punching this sad excuse for paper machete.

Pikachu:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +4
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Jab.
Kinzer's personal comment: Jab is about the only thing Pikachu can do guaranteed. His Forward Tilt comes out on frame 5, so that's powershielded. Grab is not guaranteed but again since you can spotdodge out of that, meh. It's all about reading your opponent, unless Pikachu wants to refresh his moves or whatever... bleh.

Olimar:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +5
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Jab.
Kinzer's personal comment: Meh, I personally still wouldn't D-Throw Olimar, his grab comes out fast enough, and spotdodging will leave you predictable and vulnerable. Otherwise his jab is just lulzy.

Ice Climbers:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0% (assuming another one of them isn't present): +5
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Uhh...
Kinzer's personal comment: Nevermind the fact that if there are two of them close by, one of them will interrupt your throw (read on, it gets better...), D-Throwing the player-controlled Ice Climber will give them a set-up into a grab; and everybody knows what they're infamous for... Now if there's a pseudo-AI-controlled Ice Climber, assuming that Nana is not being a stupid b****, they can just tech your throw, and then start their whatever %age you're at-to-death chaingrab and get it over it. No, just no, why are you going to inflict that much pain on yourself... why, WHY?!?!?

R.O.B.:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: -5
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher at 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Yes! I though with R.O.B. being so tall he'd have something devastating against Sonic, but it turns out if R.O.B. tries to tech it he will only set himself up for punishment! Well, not quite, R.O.B. slides too far out of range for a Jab, and FTilt/DTilt will get powershielded, but otherwise you're good to go with R.O.B.

Kirby:
Frame Advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +3
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Jab
Kinzer's personal comment: Aww, Kirby's not so scary either! Not much he can do with Jab unless you're not paying attention and he somehow follow-ups up into Forward smash. Again, the threat of grab is always there, but not guaranteed against you.

Lucario:
Frame Advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +5
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher at 0%: Grab.
Kinzer's personal comment: Lucario is 1 frame too slow to do anything guaranteed (excluding grab). His jab and Grab are both 6-frames, and everything else he does is just failure on Sonic's part to spotdodge or shield. It is advised not to D-Throw Lucario because his grab will go through your shield and there is not enough time for you to spotdodge his grab or his jab since Sonic becomes invincible from spotdodge on frame 2.

Zero Suit Samus:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +4
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Utilt
Kinzer's personal comment: Why won't Sonic stop starring at her chest?! V_V I'd be more worried about her legs if I were him. I haven't tried to see if she can do an item toss with an armor-piece in her hand, but I doubt that's faster than 4-frames, I really do.

Toon Link:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +5
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Eh, well what do ya know? Seems like Tether-grabbers got the short end of the stick on this bad boy. You're good to go against Toon Link.

Pit:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +5
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Utilt/Grab.
Kinzer's personal comment: Not worth it. Grab will refresh Pit's moves and rack up damage, or he can go with UTilt which hurts just as bad. Everything else is powershielded.

Donkey Kong:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +4
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: It's a gamble if he techs it, otherwise nothing that's gonna hurt right at that moment...

Peach:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +5
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Jab/Grab
Kinzer's personal comment: Find another/better way to send Peach back into the kitchen, where she belongs. I heard heaven has a great kitchen, so send Peach up, up, and away to the kitchen in the sky (Up or Forward throw please).

Luigi:
Frame advantage against Sonic @0%: +4/5
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher at 0%: Jab/Grab
Kinzer's personal comment: How depressing. Normally Luigi's traction is so bad, and with him DIing down he slides 1/2 across Battlefield in no time. However a tech leaves him right where he techs, and considering that Luigi has many things guaranteed in 4-5 frames, possibly including Down Smash, you're better off not doing it against him. You may think otherwise knowing that Super Jump Punch takes 6 frames to come out on and everything except Jab's follow-ups can be survived, but since Jab leads into Super Jump Punch, just forget it.

Fox:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: 0
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: You would think that because Fox is a fast faller he would be able to get some big numbers out of this... it turns out that it just resets the situation back to neutral, and from that point on how the two do is entirely up to who does what. Remember that a shield is frame 1 so you're safe against Fox assuming he doesn't try to grab you.

Wolf:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +1
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: This can go either way. Wolf has no 1 frame move that will hurt you immediately. Just watch out for any grab attempts, nothing new for you I suppose.

Sonic:
Frame advantage against himself @ 0%: +4
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Jab.
Kinzer's personal comment: That's right, even Sonic can't make good use of his own move backfired. Sonic can only jab himself out of a teched D-Throw. How silly, who uses this throw in Sonic dittos anyway? You better step up your metagame!

Sheik:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +1
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Sheik is just too slow!

Bowser:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +1
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: For the sake of your sanity and temper, it would be best not to D-Throw Bowser. Reason being is because if you get read, you will get grab-released chaingrabbed and/or get followed up with a real hard-hitter after that. If you're gutsy (or rather, actually play against a Bowser...(that knows about this)), go right ahead, Bowser doesn't have anything unreasonably fast.

Zelda:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +5
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: DSmash.
Kinzer's personal comment: Lightning heels hurt. She's got faster footwork here.

Squirtle:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +3
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Jab.
Kinzer's personal comment: Squirtle's jab is frame 1, so bleh. Whatever, still nothing that's gonna kill you.

Ivysaur:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +5
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Bullet Seed.
Kinzer's personal comment: Yeah, unless you have mad SDI skills, throw out any thoughts of D-Throwing Ivysaur out the window. Go on, chuck it out like a floppy disk, you'll feel better after.

Charizard:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +4
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Unless you can't powershield Charizard's jab, there's really nothing he can do that is set in stone. If jab does work though, I heard Charizard has some jab-cancels. Always watch out for that grab, snoop pingas usual I see.

Ike
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +4
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Jab.
Kinzer's personal comment: Considering that his jab comes out on frame 3, and a full combo alone leads into a total of 16% damage, I would say it's not worth the trouble. Let me not forget to mention jab-cancels, and how it may be possible to Spring Jump out of any of them, but once again do not quote me on this as I am not certain. Otherwise Ike has no true punishers besides grab which as you know is a gamble from there on out.

Lucas:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: -1
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Sonic gets a 1 frame advantage against Lucas if he tries to tech it. This little mother boy went to go see his mom about how he can't do anything to Sonic.

Mario:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +3
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Nothing to worry about here. Sega still does what Nintendon't.

Ness:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: -1
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Why does this boy attract so much pedophilia? Sonic is safe to D-Throw **** Ness.

Yoshi:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +2-4
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Jab.
Kinzer's personal comment: Dammit, Yoshi won't do what I want him to do! It also doesn't help that he doesn't have a normal shield animation, so I can't simply compare the time it takes Yoshi to put up his shield and Sonic's shield to come up... However I can't stay mad, Yoshi's lovable. I do know however that Yoshi can hit Sonic with Jab before anything can be done. Aside from that, I really doubt Yoshi has anything he can do that isn't otherwise powershielded or spotdodged.

Samus:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +5
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: Jab
Kinzer's personal comment: I'm not sure whether her Up-B will hit or not, but I don't think it will if you buffer a shield. In any case, her jab is pitiful, so unless you're worried about that, you don't have to worry about any serious damage from her.

Jigglypuff:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: -17
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: LOLWUT?! (No true punishers.)
Kinzer's personal comment: Well, I think it's more or less safe to say that since Jigglypuff gets a negative 17 frame advantage for trying to tech D-Throw, you are safe with him/her/it/potato. Your opponent would be better off not trying to do it anyway, but with Jigglypuff, she is too floaty for her own good; and thus, still stuck in old-time metagame. Regardless, there are no true-follow-ups on Jigglypuff, but the fact that she can't hurt you out of it is music to my ears.

Captain Falcon:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +3
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Well, no Falcon Punch, No Falcon jab either, that gets powershielded.

Link:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +4
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: bottoms tiers stay bottom tier for a reason. Link can't do anything that won't be shielded. A lot of his attacks also take 10-20 frames to come out, how sad...

Ganondorf:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: +3
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Poor ol' Ganon doesn't have the attack speed to get his grubby hands on Sonic after a tech. Fastest thing he can do is a grab, which is 7 frames, but still. I feel sorry for this guy. :/


Here is a list you can look at if you don't feel like going over the cast in details. This list sums up what characters it is safe to use D-Throw against (probably you get an advantage if they tech it), and what characters you are in Sparta if you use D-Throw against them (It's madness!). It will be a 5-category scale, with 1 being the lowest risk, 5 being the most riskiest/suicidal characters. It's in no particular order, characters within the same group mean moeorless do(n't do) this.

1 (These characters, it's fine, go ahead. Just don't expect smart people to give you a frame advantage if they know about this):

Jigglypuff
R.O.B.
Mr. Game & Watch
Ness
Lucas

2 (These characters either get no advantage, or it's basically a neutral position regardless of them having a slight advantage):

Fox
Meta Knight
Toon Link
Ganondorf
Link
Mario
Sheik
Wolf

3 (These characters, it's a game of who predicts who, or they have a minor punisher):

Captain Falcon
Samus
Yoshi
Charizard
Squirtle
Sonic
Donkey Kong
Zero Suit Samus
Kirby
Olimar
Pikachu
King Dedede
Falco
Wario
Bowser
Diddy Kong

4 (These characters either have some set-up from their set-up, a way to rack up considerable damage, or just put you in a bad position without outright killing you in normal circumstances):

Snake
Ike
Ivysaur
Zelda
Peach
Pit
Marth

5(These characters can KILL YOU if they happen to tech this):

Ice Climbers (If we're talking Sopo here, probably category 3-4)
Luigi (needs more testing, until then no)
Lucario (Aura)




More to be added later. Anybody and everybody is welcome to confirm or challenge these numbers, as I may have messed up or by mistake off somewhere.

I'll just leave this here:



Merry Christmas to you all, and have a Happy New Year.

Apparently spoiler tags don't block out colored text.

Hmmmm, I can use this.

Merry Kwanzaa, Kinzer. And I'm assuming you celebrate Kwanzaa because your name shares like half of its letters.

Yeah, it sucks, but as long as nobody highlights what's around the color-font, for all anybody knows, those could be how much I owe, or how much somebody owes me.

I don't celebrate Kwanzaa, I'm Christian. Though I'm not religious, I just decided to put this due date on Christmas day because everybody associates this time of the year with Jesus' birth, giving presents, spending time with family, etc.

Even though it's more politically correct to just say something like "happy holidays", but bleh.

I'm sorry for the double post, nobody else has bothered to post anything else in the meantime, but this is still a research thread which should have some kind of log behind it.

As of Tuesday Morning, I've temporarily halted progress, I stopped at 12 of the 38 available characters Brawl has. Later tonight I'll bust out another 12/13/14. Wednesday night I have an opponent with a doctor, so please expect some thing going down. Especially because there's a problem with my left wrist and if it comes down to it, I may not be able to work a controller for only God knows how long.

Again, spoilers will be here for anybody who wishes to not open this "present" until Christmas day.

I have only collected figures for opponents at 0%. When I tested this a while back, I got Meta Knight to have a 0 frame advantage against Sonic at a % higher than none. Whether this stays consistent or not against the rest of the cast is still uncertain, and I may not have enough time/will power to figure all that out by Christmas day. Those figures, as well as anymore fancy stuff will have to come at a later date, but rest assured I will find them. Assuming the frame advantages are consistent, it may be safe to do D-Throw against some opponents if they have some damage racked up; or hopefully, we may even get an advantage against an opponent for trying to tech D-Throw at a higher percentage. I really hope for the best. After finding this stupid tech myself, I am going to make it my duty to find out everything there is about D-Throw, and somehow bring back some life to make up for what I killed.

If anybody would like me to do requests for a character until then, just let me know, and I'll tell you soon enough. It will again be in spoilers because the whole package won't be revealed until Christmas day.

i hope the best for this thread. and LOL @ Kinzer stating he doesnt celebrate Kwanzaa cuz hes Christian.

ooo...I wonder what it is...I can wait. I think the green +# is a good thing though.

Even though I kinda know what's this is, but I still want to wish you the best of luck on work on this project Kinzer. Can't wait to see it in full.

I thought all shields come up on frame 2, not 1. Isn't that why squirtle has a grab release-jab on most of the cast, rather than it being power shielded.

@Kinzer
Are you doing this with debug mode?

Also, if you expect to get Luigi-jabbed, hold away/down from him. The reason jab-shoryuken usually works instead of getting powershielded is
1) most people are holding towards Luigi when they get jabbed, so they DI into his range
2) they don't expect it so they're not holding shield
3) they get jabbed slightly in midair, so the 'weak hitstun' leaves them completely vulnerable (can't airdodge/attack in time).

Also, I don't hold any frame data, but Ike get a jab D;

Kofu has learned to do this against me all of the time now.

So I'm curious as to what ROB and Game and Watch are able to do out of it, aside from GW's Jab, the one move Kofu's able to do on me after the throw (it'd be **** hilarious if ROB can get a D-smash in)

Still, good data, Kinzer.

Putting this in spoilers as well, if people really expect to hold off until Christmas/Kwanzaa, Hanukkah/Boxing Day

lololololol

Kwanzaa is a cultural holiday. Not religious.

But aside from that, well done Kinzer. I can see this being very useful against the people that figure this out.

But until then, I'll be enjoying my techchasing.

x_x

i couldnt resist reading it. I had to know what some chars can do. >_<

I'll keep my mouth shut until its time to reveal the spoilers to the others who arent reading it yet.

Tesh said:

I thought all shields come up on frame 2, not 1. Isn't that why squirtle has a grab release-jab on most of the cast, rather than it being power shielded.

Click to expand...

No.

The reason Squirtle has a guaranteed Jab combo out of a grab release on everybody who gets 30 frames of lag (and in the case of the mother boys, 40), is because Squirtle can act on frame 29 after he grab-releases somebody. If you have debug mode and test it, you will see 1 frame later that a small bubble (the shield) comes out. The freeze-frame you're on is considered to be frame 0. You can't go any faster than frame 1, so yeah... I hope that makes it clear.

Tenki said:

@Kinzer
Are you doing this with debug mode?

Also, if you expect to get Luigi-jabbed, hold away/down from him. The reason jab-shoryuken usually works instead of getting powershielded is
1) most people are holding towards Luigi when they get jabbed, so they DI into his range
2) they don't expect it so they're not holding shield
3) they get jabbed slightly in midair, so the 'weak hitstun' leaves them completely vulnerable (can't airdodge/attack in time).

Also, I don't hold any frame data, but Ike get a jab D;

Click to expand...

Yes Tenki, I am using debug mode. I wouldn't be doing this project if I were using anything else to get data.

-Axis- said:

lololololol

Kwanzaa is a cultural holiday. Not religious.

But aside from that, well done Kinzer. I can see this being very useful against the people that figure this out.

But until then, I'll be enjoying my techchasing.

Click to expand...

I fail. V_V

And Sonic Storm:

Yeah sure, I'll do R.O.B. and G&W tonight. If not a few minutes after you read this, it will be up by tomorrow for sure.

Edit: Done. I think you'll love the figures SS.

Cool, thanks Kinzer, I've been waiting for someone to do this for ages.



Now all we need is hit boxes

*hinthint*

Kinzer said:

And Sonic Storm:

Spoiler

Yeah sure, I'll do R.O.B. and G&W tonight. If not a few minutes after you read this, it will be up by tomorrow for sure.

Edit:

Spoiler

Done. I think you'll love the figures SS.

Click to expand...

Spoiler

Mr. Game & Watch:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: -3
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher @ 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Haha, does he think he can play the same game we can? No, actually; We can jab him if he tries to tech our D-Throw. Ah, it's gonna feel so good punching this sad excuse for paper machete.


R.O.B.:
Frame advantage against Sonic @ 0%: -5
Fastest guaranteed hard punisher at 0%: No true punishers.
Kinzer's personal comment: Yes! I though with R.O.B. being so tall he'd have something devastating against Sonic, but it turns out if R.O.B. tries to tech it he will only set himself up for punishment! Well, not quite, R.O.B. slides too far out of range for a Jab, and FTilt/DTilt will get powershielded, but otherwise you're good to go with R.O.B.

Click to expand...

Christmas has come early for me. Just awesome now that I know I'll have little to no problems using D-throw on him, lol, so long as I react fast enough/hold the A button on GW. Thanks a lot for this!

Is ANYBODY waiting until Christmas to read this?

Poor G&W with his super long teching animation....

Another update:

I've completed 26/38 characters available in the cast. I hope you enjoy this as much as I do, I'm glad to see that some of these figures aren't as bad as I thought they could've been. Assuming I'm right, which I hope I am.

Camalange said:

I'm not Christian but I celebrate Christmas, lol. I see it as more of a family tradition and overall good times.

Click to expand...

Well the modern [American] Christmas was more or less manufactured by Coca Cola.

This is incredible Kinzer.


People who read this after Christmas are going to be wondering why everyone is posting in spoilers.

@KRD

After I complete all the characters, I'm going to sum it up in a small list of "characters that it's safe to use D-Throw against" compared to "you have a death-wish if you use D-Throw against *this* character. Right now I'm just collecting exact figures, and what dangers really are lurking around.

Of course with characters like R.O.B., Jigglypuff, and G&W being the extremes, your opponent would have to be ******** to tech it when it's safer for them to DI up or not tech it at all. In a game where people are playing perfectly, even if Sonic gets do punish them for it, they wouldn't want to do it, so it basically translates to "safe."

Unless you're this guy, who falls to properly tech D-Throw, and get's pseudo-chaingrabbed because of it.

In any case, I don't know about everybody else, but once Christmas comes around I'm going to remove the spoiler tags.

Tonight, I'll crank out everybody else that hasn't already been done. It will be ready a day early, but maybe I'll do some cleaning up, reconfirm or deny some things (because I probably made a mistake somewhere).

Edit: Wow, I confused Axis for KRD because they both have the same avatar.

D*** you Xiivi!

@Kofu

Why do you want me to test out DA? Is that faster than 4 frames? I didn't really bother to test anything from a run because you have to run, and then cancel that run with an attack...

I suppose for credibility, I can look it over when I go look into it tonight, but I really doubt that will work.

Not even with Wario, I just don't think any character has something like that. Though admittedly, I did not bother to look at other characters' frame data, or find out if Dash Attack would work for the characters I have already gone over...

Anyway, to answer your question, no I do not think you can buffer a DA. If I try to run and then input basic attack, it will register as a forward Tilt in Debug Pause. I could be wrong on that though, and maybe buffering a run and then basic attack may work, but I don't know for sure. I'll see if I can manage to get it to work myself later.

Shoot, I forgot all about a Fart.

Though I remember testing that out, and Sonic just powershielded that. I guess it can't hurt to double check or (re?)confirm.

Well that I know, but again I'm not factoring things like player error/mindgames/inability to buffer. These will have absolute figures (or at least, within reason. Of course nobody could possibly consistently be able to do all this and blah blah blah).

Which is why I need to fix Lucario not being able to follow-up with a grab, for example. ******* has enough of a frame-advantage to grab you because you can't even spotdodge until frame 7 no thanks to his 5-frame advantage, and you get put into the grab animation at frame 6 assuming this is all buffered correctly.

It still wouldn't do any harm if I am to retest/relook at some of these things, and perhaps add some more where I might've overlooked.

Somebody find me a good Let's Play of Digimon World II for Christmas or something darnit. I can't find one on Youtube that has at least average quality on everything. Nostalgia is too good. DX

Offtopic edit: Espy is pretty d*** legit. Favoriting A full gameplay walkthrough of Digmon World II and doesn't afraid of anything.

December 23rd update ('nother double post, but for people keeping up with , this ought to be important)

I've completed all characters and gathered their fastest attacks; as well as a small categorized list of what degree of punishment (or where applicable, the degree of punishment THEY receive for teching.)

It's all in the OP, check it out. I hope it's self-explanatory and clear, if not just ask away.

@ Kofu:

I double-checked. Wario can't Fart Sonic out of a tech. However I still cannot get Debug pause to let me use Dash Attack, so that will have to stay a mystery... but otherwise, thank you for making me take a second look into it.

I believe there was something else... Uhm, oh yeah, Lucario is fixed, and the whole list is complete.

Christmas Eve. Update: I figured since it's only an hour away for Christmas in the East Coast, I'd just get the spoiler tags out of the way now. Also Europe is already celebrating CHristmas, so yeah, there ya go.

I hope that somebody out there will put this data into good use just as I will. I know I'm relived to know some of the statistics now, and this should help everybody if they study this.

Except KID. Since he has me on ignore, he probably won't be able to read this. He can have coal up his stockings for all I care.

...That aside, I managed to do some very brief testing. I tried D-Throwing Wario @ 300%, and although it was just 1 frame less for Wario, it worked. Wario doesn't have as much of a frame advantage against Sonic if he is D-Thrown at a higher percentage (nevermidn how unrealistic Wario living to 300% is... I don't care if it's Sonic dammit! >:l). Funny thing is that I also tested this with Meta Knight (somewhere at ~100%), and the same thing worked. Meta Knight got no frame advantage against Sonic for teching it. If I find some time to do some more testing on the cast at high %ages, I'm going to go find the frame (dis)advantages against the cast. I hope this is consistent, I assume it is, it would be nice to know I can D-Throw more characters and have a safer time against them.

With that said, for anybody that waited (thank you...), please enjoy.

Really nice Kinzer. Now I know who really not to Dthrow. Probably this might help me from Dthrowing my opponents too much especially the ones who can tech it every time.

I almost never use D throw, but at least now I know who to not use it on. Good job Kinzer.

:o

Thanks Kinzeries. And same to you dude. I just dont know why anyone in their right mind would dthrow freakin IC's. wuuut. Ah well, Uthrow is still too good.

Interesting read. I've still only fought 1 or 2 people that can even tech sonic's dthrow more than once a match on complete luck. These players are usually sonic mains too... I've been intentionally using dthrow on my usual gaming buds and telling them about the tech but we've all been too lazy to look into it.

Do you have to be DI'ing down to do the dthrow tech?


Also @ SonicMaster5: I don't even know who would be GRABBING IC's, let alone using dthrow.


Also Also. It looks like you have some sort of software for this frame data etc. Could you replicate this plz plz plz?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyYqpWGMTVc

I wanna know the button presses and how to cancel out of spindash.

ithrowthings said:

Do you have to be DI'ing down to do the dthrow tech?

Click to expand...

Yes, you do.

Xeylode said:

If he has a frame 4 advantage. That should mean he can Ftilt you out of it as well. It comes out on frame 4. I would call that a pretty good punishment for Dthrow usage. Deal 10%, get 21% back.

Click to expand...

Powershielded, already tried that when going over Snake.

Oh, and ITT, my SD card bricked itself, so no I unfortunately cannot use it anymore for frame-data.

Bionic Sonic said:

I might be smart but I really need a video tutorial done on graphical hitboxes

Click to expand...

Wtf? didnt you make the lucario one?

Kitamerby did all that, Bionic just posted the vid.

Kinzer said:

Powershielded, already tried that when going over Snake.

Oh, and ITT, my SD card bricked itself, so no I unfortunately cannot use it anymore for frame-data.

Click to expand...

Just buy one on e-bay. Like 5 bucks with shipping for a 1 gig. What software is it? (This extremely interests me)