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*NEW* Falco Match-Up Thread ~ Week #13: Olimar

Denzi

Denzi

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> Current : Week #12: ROB<

Link to old thread (has discussion and archive status etc etc.)

This chart is as complete and up to date as it can be, and it will be changed according to the outcomes of future discussions.


​


(Links to the character-specific threads are below)

Match-Ups Numbers :
(White = old ratios, lime = new ratios.)
  1. Metaknight - 50/50 (no planking); 40/60 (planking)
  2. Snake - 50/50
  3. Mr. Game & Watch - 40/60
  4. King Dedede - 60/40
  5. ROB - 40/60
  6. Marth - 45/55
  7. Wario - 55/45
  8. Lucario - 55/45
  9. Donkey Kong - 60/40
  10. Diddy Kong - 55/45
  11. Ice Climbers - 45:55
  12. Pikachu - 35/65
  13. Kirby - 40/60
  14. Pit - 55/45
  15. Wolf - 60/40
  16. Toon Link - 60/40
  17. Olimar - 50/50
  18. Zelda - 65/35
  19. Fox - 55/45
  20. Yoshi - 60/40
  21. Zero Suit Samus - 60/40
  22. Peach - 55/45
  23. Ike - 70/30
  24. Luigi - 55/45
  25. Bowser - 60/40
  26. Falco - 100/0 (Falco always wins)
  27. Sheik - 50/50
  28. Lucas - 60/40
  29. Ness - 60/40
  30. Sonic - 60/40
  31. Jiggs - 60/40
  32. Mario 55/45 - 60/40
  33. Pokemon Trainer - 60/40
    Squirtle - 40/60
    Ivysaur - 70/30
    Charizard - 60/40
  34. Samus - 65/35
  35. Ganon - LMAO 95/5
  36. Link 75/25
  37. Captain Falcon - YES! 80/20
 
Denzi

Denzi

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Might I point out that I have no clue as to how I'm going to edit that chart, so if anyone who can/can tell me how would let me know, that'd be nice.
 
E

Elyssa Xey Hexen

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Denzi said:
Might I point out that I have no clue as to how I'm going to edit that chart, so if anyone who can/can tell me how would let me know, that'd be nice.
Click to expand...
Copy & Paste into your nearest grapics program. Highlight the area that is just the MU ratio, and delete/cover it up with the other ration. After that, go to "tinypic" or some other image site and upload it. Then, simply replace the image url you are currently using right not

If you use microsofts preinstalled "Paint" program, then I can give specific directions.
 
swordsaint

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How about you copy and paste the ratios that already exist in the chart to ones that are revised. :)

MK should stay 50/50.

Also, Denzi. Just before the list of Characters where you link to discussion threads. Actually say that they do. So we don't get people like Xeylode discussing in the wrong place. =P
 
Denzi

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C'mon guys, keep it serious.

And Xeylode, those specific instructions sound nice. You can just PM them to me to keep the extra clutter out of this thread.
 
MetalMusicMan

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I still think MK is 55/45 MK's favor minimum in like 90% of all possible scenarios. There are certain times when it might approach 50/50 and others that it might approach 60/40, but overall I think it is generally 55/45 MK at least.

Denzi said:
Might I point out that I have no clue as to how I'm going to edit that chart, so if anyone who can/can tell me how would let me know, that'd be nice.
Click to expand...
I can edit it or make an entirely new chart if you want. Let me know.

www.MetalMusicMan.com

www.MetalMusicMan.com/portfolio
 
swordsaint

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Cmon, Denzi. Don't be like that. The boards should be chilled out, reply to something where we see it. Natural flow.

Also, MMM, you're amazingly talented. I love your work.

I honestly think, after seeing MMM's portfolio that we could get a nice, updated, brand new ratio chart.
 
Teran

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Try not to spam this one.

This is directed at everyone.
 
swordsaint

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Don't lie! I just got infracted. lol

On topic: What's being discussed after Metaknight? I'm pretty sure that we've settled that dispute with 50/50 no planking, 40/60 with. Also, What's the plan on summarising the Match-ups and what we should be doing?
 
Denzi

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Next I was thinking of just knocking Snake out of the way pretty quickly and then moving on to the ones that have changed the most (GnW, ROB, Kirby, Marth) and then get into the ones that we're disadvantaged in (Pika, IC's, etc) and then ones I just don't think are quite right (Sheik, Diddy). Ending it with the not so important characters we already know we beat.
 
AvoiD

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Swordsaint, you really gotta stop posting useless ****. Stay on topic, please. :]

So MMM is editing the matchup picture, will you be making the threads Denzi? If you need any help, i'd be glad to. Also, I suggest adding a vid of a top player playing the matchup correctly and well underneath or within the name in OP.

Don't worry, I got youuuu.

EDIT: I like that idea, go for it mah doo.
 
swordsaint

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Good plan. Just another pre-emptive statement. Falco > Snake. Yeah I hear you Kuro.

Anyway, as I said. I think the MK mu has been wrapped up nicely. Should get to the Snake one asap. Anything still needing to be said about the MK one can be added in the early day or two of the Snake discussion.
 
Denzi

Denzi

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KuroZero said:
Also, I suggest adding a vid of a top player playing the matchup correctly and well underneath or within the name in OP.
Click to expand...
Yeah I got the threads. So should I just, for example, put a vid of DEHF vs Tyrant in the OP of the MK thread?

swordsaint said:
Good plan. Just another pre-emptive statement. Falco > Snake.
Click to expand...
I actually agree with that one mostly, still could make an argument for 50:50 though.

The Snake one will last a bit longer than the MK one did simply due to people not posting during the next few days and all.
 
swordsaint

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Denzi said:
Yeah I got the threads. So should I just, for example, put a vid of DEHF vs Tyrant in the OP of the MK thread?



I actually agree with that one mostly, still could make an argument for 50:50 though.

The Snake one will last a bit longer than the MK one did simply due to people not posting during the next few days and all.
Click to expand...
I like the idea of having "Video Guides". It'll be a nice reference tool imo. Good call Kuro.
 
AvoiD

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Denzi, yessirrr. Whichever you think DEHF showed how the matchup is supposed to be played, I'm not talking like a 2-3 stock if he got lucky, a close, serious match/set.

Thanks SS :]

And I'll argue that Snake vs. Falco is even.
 
Teran

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Tbh I expect high tier matchups to be breezed through, it's those pesky mid tiers that leave a lot of discussion imo.

So keep soldiering on and expect it to start taking a while when we hit the mid tiers, especially Peach (lol).
 
swordsaint

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I don't think Peach will...take too long. As long as we keep the current thread open, by the time we're up to it we'll probably have come to some conclusion.
 
Denzi

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Yeah, he has it. Ends in a Dash attack. And Falco v Peach is a bit less than 6:4 imo, but we'll worry about that later.
 
E

Elyssa Xey Hexen

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GunmasterLombardi said:
Peach has already been covered, 6:4. Skip it.

I think the Snake matchup is around even too. Does he still have that grab release CG on us?
Click to expand...
swordsaint said:
Dunno, I've never heard of it before. (lol)
Click to expand...
There is a such a thing. But the timing is rather difficult to get down and it's an Air Release CG. Which means it is limited by the stage, and any platforms that get in the way. Really, the only thing to note with that is that Snake can hit you with a Dash Attack from the air release. A possible KO method if you get to high percents. Learn to DI it right to avoid that from happening. Sometimes people DI it really poorly and die sooner than they should be. Dash attack (fresh) I think shouldn't be killing Falco at 160%-170%.

Dthrow is the biggest concern. Due to Falco get-up attack, Snake no longer has to really predict your pattern. He can simply stand there and react to anything you do. get-up attack? Snake will see the first side of the attack hit away from Snake and he can PS the incoming hit and regrab you. YOu stand up, he can regrab you. YOu roll behind, he can regrab you. Forward roll is really the only thing I believe Snake cannot regrab you on, but dash attack punishes forward roll. Not to mention that ledges screw up the forward roll as well.

So, a Dthrow does not equal 10% of damage. It's a 20%+ combo in itself minimum (if the snake is quick enough to punish you which most are). Of course you have to get grabbed first.
 
swordsaint

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Falco really shouldn't be getting grabbed match in this match up imo. We should be following up and playing safe, keep away tactics.
 
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Elyssa Xey Hexen

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swordsaint said:
Falco really shouldn't be getting grabbed match in this match up imo. We should be following up and playing safe, keep away tactics.
Click to expand...
To me, it's all the more incentive to stay away from Snake. The damage output to survivability is just wrong for the match-up. Snake, if everything goes perfectly, will not be dying until 200% almost. Falco on the other hand can die once he reaches 100%-110%. Fresh Utilt/Bair/C4/Uair/Nair will almost always kill falco in that case. It's like Falco has 9 lives. Every time you get grabbed, Ftilted, naded, etc. a life is taken away. And you only have 8 mistakes left until your stock is gone. Snake on the other hand gets like 100 lives.
 
Teran

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swordsaint said:
I don't think Peach will...take too long. As long as we keep the current thread open, by the time we're up to it we'll probably have come to some conclusion.
Click to expand...
It won't take long because it's in need of discussion, it'll take long because of well... Peach mains.
 
Gmoney_

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Let's keep the discussion on MK only in this trhead guys.

This MU is 55-45 MK I think. Our ground game > his.. Upclose we have both jab and filt which are faster than any his moves. We can even do the full jab combo, but we need to end it asap because it's punishable if we continue with it.
If the MK is Dair camping, just do some full hop lasers if you're far away from him. Don't do this if he's nearby though, he can punish you. Also, try getting beneath him if he's dair camping. If he hits your shield, you get a " free" dair or bair on him. If he's just spacing above you, try to do a full hop bair (Don't do this if you think he's too high).
If you manage to grab him, that is a good 60%, so go for it but don't force it. When recovering most MKs tend to do either nair on stage or nado, thats why most of the time we should go for the ledge.

Some facts about MK. His nado can be very annoying if you don't know how to go around with it. He can rack up damage very quickly if Falco's at low %. Uair, " combos" into F/N-air or even upB. This all together is good for like 50%. MK can interrupt phantasm with nair, so don't use it carefully. MK can just upB Falco if the falco just SH in front of him. This als kills falco around 120% if fresh and used grounded. Mk can gimp us with upB after getting us offstage, so be carefull with the 2nd jump (try using this as late as possible when recovering). Single Ftilt sometimes combs into Dsmash. This is all I can remember for now about the MU.
 
Wulfy07

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1. MK versus Falco is 50-50.
2. Snake match is great fun. It is probably my favorite match up (not for whipping a$$ on either side but) because of it's immense possibilities. Campy snake will usually lose cause grenade tennis ends up our favor. CGs, short of being perfect, backfire. Snake's chaingrab is actually a tech. I highly suggest consciously remembering what you did last time to mix it up. In this case, wifom is GOOD wifom. I find that snake will grab often in the beginning (low percents) to see a typical reaction to the Dt. So, I suggest doing nothing, taking a tilt. If he smashes, roll into him and punish, if he does nothing, roll away. The tilt hit possibility is actually not that bad because he doesn't learn anything from the first grab. He's forced to either have no idea what you'll do at crucial percents because you told him nothing. If reacted incorrectly or failed to, he thinks you'll roll. Now, if he failed, he'll probably go for a second grab relatively soon. You can then avoid and punish, but falling into it still allows testing at lower percents. Two tests I recmmend (preferred first) are:
1. Get up attack. See if he can react. Sometimes, delaying this, like the first one, will make him think you'll roll and it will nail him. If you know he can react(he shields immediately out of Dt), wait and do it when he drops shield to attack or roll the same direction as before to play it safe.
2. Tech up->dodge->->down smash. Now, I have found that teching up leads to a few possibilities because it's not expected, but a snake will then think to just grab again. You can punish with dodge and down smash, hitting him with the back foot which has greater knock back.

This is basically *my* preference against snakes and their down throw, and while mine may not work for you (or at all against better snakes), that's probably the key to the entire match. A perfect CG will still work, camping still works for us with sideB for crawling snake, and grenade tennis is awesome. Spike is still beautiful, even against good DIs because of grabbing his upB or spiking him out of it, Bairing it, etc.

Anyway, despite all that I would say about the match up, this too is about 50-50. It's a lot of fun, challenging a bit, but even over all. That's pretty much it from my perspective.
 
Teran

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I have to commend MMM on that really nice matchup chart. :D
 
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