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140.85 - The Solid Snake Matchup Database

Underload

Lazy
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Morrison, Colorado
MUST READ FOR ALL MEMBERS:

Hello, and welcome to the 2nd incarnation of the Snake matchup thread. Many of the Snake regulars have deemed it necessary to restart discussion after the unfortunate death of abit_rusty's thread. Through this thread, we hope to create more intelligent discussion in the Snake boards and streamline some otherwise frayed information.

However, with a new thread comes some new rules. Borrowing a few ideas from the Yoshi boards and using a few of my own, I have come up with this system. The old norm of opening the matchup thread (this thread) to the discussion of a single character for a set amount of time is cluttered and inefficient. It only keeps the discussion of a character open for a week or two, so any late-comers will be snubbed. So, what I have decided to do is create an individual thread for each matchup. That thread will be open indefinitely, open to discussion at any time. But, to avoid excessive thread spam, only one matchup will be opened at a time. The next will be opened when we deem input is satisfactory.

If you are from another character board or are new to the Snake boards, please do not post about matchups in here. Look for the corresponding thread. However, it is alright to advertise YOUR board's discussion of Snake in this thread.

Additional Resources To Help With Matchups:
Complete Frame Data Directory
Snake Edgeguarding Guide

:( means this matchup is not open to discussion yet.
:) means this matchup is currently under initial discussion.
:mad: means this matchup is out of the spotlight, but still open to any discussion / arguing.

_____________________

:confused: :random: Character ~ Discussion thread | Opposing character's matchup thread snake:opponent

:( :bowser2: Bowser ~

:( :falcon: Captain Falcon ~

:mad: :diddy: Diddy Kong ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 50:50

:( :dk2: Donkey Kong ~

:mad: :falco: Falco ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 50:50

:( :fox: Fox ~

:( :ganondorf: Ganondorf ~

:mad: :popo: Ice Climbers ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 60:40

:( :ike: Ike ~

:( :jigglypuff: Jigglypuff ~

:mad: :dedede: King Dedede ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 45:55

:mad: :kirby2: Kirby ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 60:40

:( :link2: Link ~

:) :lucario: Lucario ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread

:( :lucas: Lucas ~

:( :luigi2: Luigi ~

:( :mario2: Mario ~

:mad: :marth: Marth ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 50:50

:mad: :gw: Mr. Game & Watch ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 60:40

:mad: :metaknight: Meta Knight ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 55:45-40:60

:( :ness2: Ness ~

:mad: :olimar: Olimar ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 45:55

:( :peach: Peach ~

:mad: :pikachu2: Pikachu ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 55:45

:( :pit: Pit ~

:( :pt: Pokémon Trainer ~

:mad: :rob: R.O.B. ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 55:45

:( :samus2: Samus ~

:( :shiek: Sheik ~

:mad: :snake: Snake ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 50:50

:( :sonic: Sonic ~

:( :toonlink: Toon Link ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread

:mad: :warioc: Wario ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread

:( :wolf: Wolf ~

:( :yoshi2: Yoshi ~

:( :zelda: Zelda ~

:mad: :zerosuitsamus: Zero Suit Samus ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
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Messages
8,189
We will be starting with the bottom of High Tier(as deemed by the current list.) and continue to the top tier. Then we will do all of the other characters in reverse order. (so from the top of mid tier to ganon.)

EDIT:

Current Tier List said:
Meta Knight
Snake
Wario
Falco
Diddy Kong
King Dedede


Marth
Mr. Game & Watch
Pikachu
Olimar
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Kirby


Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Toon Link
Pit
Donkey Kong


Peach
Luigi
Fox
Wolf
Sonic
Sheik


Bowser
Zelda
Pokémon Trainer
Ike


Lucas
Mario
Ness
Yoshi
Samus


Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Link
Ganondorf
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
8,189
Yeah. The metagame has changed for a lot of the members of the cast. So they have become better overall. Just rediscussing the match ups and spurring good conversation is what we are aiming for.
 

Yumewomiteru

Smash Master
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yumewomiteru
Rather than relying on the matchup threads you guys should find good, recent vids of the matchup and learn from them.
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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I think for the most part, we discuss mus wrong. we tend to be very general when recommending what to do, instead of isolating our problems and coming up with exactly what we can do about them. we should focus more on specific problem moves, and by using frame data, come up with our list of options when put in those certain situations.

for instance:

Kirby's best move is most definately his bair

B-air (Drop Kick)

12% soon (9% later)
Start-up: 1-5
Hits: 6-20
Cool-down: 7-41
Hitlag: +8
Aerial Lag: 9 (auto cancel: 2, 28)

thus on a normal shield, we have at least 6 frames to punish (20+8+7). this means an ftilt is always possible. but given that kirby is generally quite high when using it, jab --> grab is more appropriate in most situations. on a power shield, we can grab, utilt, jab, ftilt. remember, he may be going through you, so turn around where possible.

this is considerably more useful than 'block and punish' or 'just camp and space'. and it helps regardless of the opponents playstyle. we should do this more often.
 

Yumewomiteru

Smash Master
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yumewomiteru
You're forgetting that kirby spaces his bair, which means that jab and ftilt wouldn't reach him. I like to punish his bair by moving towards him and dtilt him where he lands.
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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i thought i took that into consideration... 20+8+7... anyway, i was using it as an example. this is how mus can be discussed so that they help us despite playstyles or ability. frame data doesnt lie. i do believe susa made a thread on mks dtilt a while ago, concluding that it could be ftilted on powershield, providing the spacing allowed for it, otherwise, all snake can do it walk away. this kind of thing is incredibly useful. now next time i face a mk's dtilt i know exactly what i can and cant get away with, and am able to made correct decisions without guess work or failed attempts.
 
Joined
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Messages
18,990
I wonder what Susa was talking about when she thought of the DDD MU as 50:50...

What were her theories on Snake VS DDD..
 

Squall of fame

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
48
Location
Akatsuki
Wario is hard as hell to deal with whether its recovering or trying to hit his seemly fly A$$ just so hard to hit him when he got some BS leeway.
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
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Messages
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Peter..... I dunno... but I think you should have a thread for the IC's made...
 

Yumewomiteru

Smash Master
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yumewomiteru
Can you explain why it's in Snake's favor? I've being playing against a Dedede main regularly for a long time now. Although I wouldn't say its a really bad matchup I still can't see it being in Snake's favor.
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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'snake outcamps d3'

thats the answer they always give. which fair in the sense that it is true.

BUT when d3 manages to get through the nade spam (admittedly taking damage along the way) and stand just outside ftilt range, wtf can snake do?

1. pull a nade --> gets grabbed
2. ftilt/utilt/dtilt --> gets grabbed
3. usmash --> gets grabbed, might get saved by mortar
4. pivot grabs --> outspeeded and outranged (im pretty sure) by d3's standing grab --> will get grabbed
5. dash attack/dacus --> shield grab
6. jump and do whatever --> eats a wall of bair OR shield grabbed upon landing

one grab at low damage is equivalent to at least 80% (after lots of c4 recovery). and d3cide is so very close to being guaranteed, and the snake must predict it or react very quickly to avoid it. not so bad at high percents, but d3 gimps pretty well and has kill moves that actually kill snake reasonably well. we die before him at least.

admittedly im being a little biased, but i cant see how its not d3's favour.
 

etecoon

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Messages
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snake doesn't beat D3. not yet anyway. if a snake practiced dthrow on DDD constantly to where he actually could tech chase consistently on pure reaction then yes, snake would win the MU, but for the moment that is only theorycraft, no one's actually doing it.
 

Yumewomiteru

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yumewomiteru
I doubt it's possible to techchase Dedede purely on reaction. Even though his rolls are short, they are also quick. So you have to be fast to be able to techchase him, if you hesitate he can grab you instead.
 

etecoon

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Messages
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I think with practice it could be possible, reacting to rolls isn't as hard as get up attacks to me at least, so anyone that hits away first is a potential victim. but as I said, until someone starts doing this it IS pure theorycraft, DDD beats snake 6:4.
 

iFudge

Banned via Warnings
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ghana/tampa/atl
Lets discuss diddy. im camping my butt off and now im up to the point. I have to cp mk and time them out to win.
 

gallax

Smash Hero
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Orlando(UCF), Fl
come down to FL and then you'll see why ddd vs snake is definately in favor of snake.
Can you explain why it's in Snake's favor? I've being playing against a Dedede main regularly for a long time now. Although I wouldn't say its a really bad matchup I still can't see it being in Snake's favor.
woah woah woah i just realized what i wrote. i meant its totally in favor of DDD. haha. i mean playing agianst co 18 and hungrybox and watching seibrik play his ddd agaisnst snakes makes one realize how much snake has to work to win this.

ive seen the best snakes in florida have a two stock advantage against ddd and lose. ive never seen the opposite though.

Who ever said that you should nade camp Diddy?
ask razer or candy and they will say this. thats what they told me. lol.
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
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Messages
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woah woah woah i just realized what i wrote. i meant its totally in favor of DDD. haha. i mean playing agianst co 18 and hungrybox and watching seibrik play his ddd agaisnst snakes makes one realize how much snake has to work to win this.

ive seen the best snakes in florida have a two stock advantage against ddd and lose. ive never seen the opposite though.



ask razer or candy and they will say this. thats what they told me. lol.
You should nade camp Diddy. That is definitely correct.
 

napZzz

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those frowny faces all over the first post of this thread make it so....depressing :/
 

Underload

Lazy
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I've already replaced ROB's thread with the ICs thread. I opened the ICs discussion a week after ROB's. Look, here's the order.

#1: Kirby
#2: ROB
#3: Ice Climbers

Kirby and ROB have gotten decent success, but ICs has gotten zero love. I don't want to open #4 (Olimar) until we get some decent discussion started there. Comprendo?
 
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