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Matchup Rediscussion Export: Olimar (1)

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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Apr 15, 2008
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in my SCIENCE! lab
Olimar



Matchup:

45:55

General info:
simple:
Lose by: Letting Olimar camp you, jumping into pivot grab, letting Olimar Land Upsmash, let Olimar pick purples, using Fsmash on a grounded Olimar.

Win by: Getting close, Grabbing, usage of tilts, edge guarding.
I believe one of our hardest MU's. Possibly the 2nd or 3rd. Lucario attacks with the same pattern as Oli does, meaning that he is a linear character. He attacks vertical, and horizontal attacks, with the exception of Fair which is his 45 degree angle attack. He pretty much out plays Lucario in a lot of sections that makes Lucario where he is now. Not to mention he can cancel AS at any time he wants. He has a better semi-projectile, Good killing power, and absurd range.

As for his weaknesses as a character, he has plenty. His throwing his Pikmin enables us to approach a bit easier if we pass them, and his Pivot grab is also exploitable because he has no Super Armor Frame. His pikmin are wonky in priority as well. Overall however, this MU is hard...

I posted my old post from WAY back because what it says is still true. It also gives good insight on Oli's attacks.





What to avoid:
simple:
Lose by: Letting Olimar camp you, jumping into pivot grab, letting Olimar Land Upsmash, let Olimar pick purples, using Fsmash on a grounded Olimar.

avoid approaching if he has a purple coming up in the line-up, evil evil evil purples. <_< Fair will swat out nonpurples and nair will beat them off you if they latch on.
Oh, and Oli can true combo Nair into Usmash. Gay as hell.

Also, it was stated a while ago that all of Olimar's attack have no priority except for Pikmin Chain, but it should also be noted that up air (especially yellow) will go through just about everything. If well spaced, even your down air, which goes through everything else we have (sans pikmin chain).

And yes. Don't worry about pikmin on you. Watch our line for purples and be ready to shield when they come up. It's good for Olimar to take advantage of rushing opponents by hitting them with something they don't expect to be hit with. A solid projectile. And when someone barges in expecting on latching pikmin to hit them, a solid projectile can not only knock them off balance and set them up for a follow up, but the pikmin they "weren't caring about" are now on them, hitting them while they're vulnerable. So yes, watch for purples. Not enough people do this. Also, whites as well, but watch for them AFTER they've latched onto you. Get them off fast though, and don't try to barge in while one's on, or you'll be taking 6 damage every thirty frames (undiminished).



How to win:
Mind pointing out whats wrong?

I'm going to redo my post my post since I posted that last one on my phone lol </3

What we're going to need Grounded Olimar/AKA approaching.:

Fair: Swats Away pikmin, while approaching, our best option for edgeguarding.
Jump afterwards if he's running away or else you'll get pivot grabbed <_<.

Dair: useful if he sidesteps while under pressure or shield pressure, he can Whistle -> upsmash you so beware.

Autocanceled and FF'd Nair: You'll be using the latter more but keep in mind the minuscule lag on the other one could throw olimar off once or twice.

Empty hop: jump afterwards if he's running away.

Run into sidesteps: since they ussually answer most things with a grab.... just don't sidestep too early though ._.

BAS: useful everyonce in awhile for going under pikmin throws if he jumps, doesn't always go under but keeps olimar on his toes.

Once Your Close:
Grab: GRAB GRAB GRAB GRAB GRAB, well to to the point of spamming it blatant but Throws are very good in this match-up, they get him in the air or offstage, both places that olimar does not like at all.

Jabs: slower then olimar's jab so be careful, can lead into grabs, or a full jab combo to get him in the air.

Ftilt: one frame slower then the grab so be careful, but leads into good stuff.

Uptilt: gets him in the air. sets up into grabs or more uptilts at low percentages.

Once He's in the air:
Fair: Airstrings, rising fair beats out most of what he can do and if he Whistles We get a free hit sometimes ;)

UpAir: when it comes the time where fair cannot lead into any follow-ups, UpAir can be used in place of fair somewhat, kills at that point, and if he ADs/Whistles we can follow-up with more responses [not nearly as well as fair however]. can also be used earlier on if you just want him to go up a bit.

Bair: hits him out of whiffed ADs/Whistles I guess. use sparingly.

Dair: use on whistle or Airdodges, hit on earlier % and sparingly at higher.

Nair: use on hit or whistle.

When Edgeguarding:

Forward Air and Dair? I'm not too keen on how to edgeguard olimar but I do know that he recovers from below and uses Rising UpAir to UpB, which I have never retaliated against <_<

Recovery:

Recover High as usual, when forced to recover low [which isn't too uncommon, dsmash can send you there] BEWARE of jumping/landing into Dsmash, doesn't happen too often but often grants an edgehog for Olimar, it can't hit us out of ES though. Don't land into Upsmash either obviously lol.



Please elaborate, we have time.

I still need to learn this match-up more :(, STAUFFY POST MORE ****IT </3
Win by: Getting close, Grabbing, usage of tilts, edge guarding.

pew pew pew

More Words Version:

its just a matter of getting inside really, Olimar's grab reaches far but I think it comes out on like frame 11, so really its a matter of just getting close and keeping olimar in the air,

Grabs are ESSENTIAL, They Get Olimar in the air or offstage, both places he does not want to be.

and on another note: Pikmin = Teletubbies. The Baby Sun = Olimar. tru fax.


Focus everything you can on getting us to the ledge. That's almost the only way Lucario can legitimately kill Olimar. At least reliably. We have absoutely no reason to approach. When you get us to the ledge, note what paths we're able to take to get around you, or to force you out of our space. your tilts and fair stop most of these, as well as your grab.

Speaking of your grab, if we're recovering, and you grab us before we hit the stage (even if we're not hanging over the ledge) we do not get our jump back (you all may already know this, i don't know if it's only the case with olimar or not). This is a huge burden for Olimar, because Olimar without a second jump is pretty much dead.

But for the most part, most of the things that have been said so far have been correct.


Helpful tips:
You might also want to throw a BAS once it awhile, sometimes it goes under the pikmin tosses and hits olimar and it'll also get them out of the comfort that you'll never fire projectiles back at them.
Also, most pikmin have no priority. You can swat them away with anything so long as Olimar isn't currently performing either a grab or Up B. Sadly, though, Olimar himself does not suffer hitlag iirc, so he will generally recover before you and be able to smack you with a smash all over again and probably kill you.

Also, I've heard recommendations about tossing Olimar upwards with u/dthrow and shieldgrabbing his landing. I haven't been able to try it myself, but it seems like it'd work pretty darn well. Can't think of anything he could do to stop it other than to try to hope for the edge, which is risky for obvious reasons.

I've also heard reports that it works best if you don't consider his pikmin at all when attacking and just power through them and go straight for the source instead of fearing that extra 10%. It makes sense, though. People usually are too hesitant because they're so scared of taking that extra damage. We need to remember that it's never about how much damage you can take as long as you can avoid the kill moves themselves.
I think that Olimar has gotten slightly more understandable in metagame, but at the same time, it's gotten harder for us :p
Keep him in the air obv, and bait out the whistle near the edge before you use a quick kill move, since you want him offstage obviously.
I would say also the following:
Almost never fsmash if he's grounded.
Careful of using dair on him too, he has better anti air options than some chars above him tier-wise, utilt is good range wise and usmash will kill you early.
For approaching, I would be sneaky, mixup your aerials and make sure you don't land predictably, get inside with crossups and bait the grab and punish with your own.
Also make sure you don't underestimate him offstage, he can DJ -> uair to get you off from ledgehogging.



Stages:
Oli has quite a few stages that can mess him up. Despite the chances of yellow and purple going up, I'd recommend Frigate as a possible option. RC is also pretty nasty for Oli, much less icky for us.
Yeah frigate is definitely, by far, the best stage option you have against Olimar. Purples against lucario ARE helpful for us in the matchup, but yellows (regardless of being one of, if not, our best pikmin) are not as amazing in this matchup as they are in others. Not to mention, it's an extremely closed in area where we get cornered easily. Lucario works really well at gimping Olimar, and the right side you'll be able to take full advantage of against us.

That said, this will be banned against you by any smart Olimar lol.

So second choices. RC isn't a good idea, it's really not that terrible for Olimar, ESPECIALLY in this matchup (frigate isn't completely game breakingly bad for us either, but in this matchup it is), and Japes, another of Olimar's "bad" stages is ALSO good for us in this matchup (i'll explain why if asked, but it's a really long and dumb explanation >.>)

Battlefield is a good choice, and is usually (or should be) our first strike for the starter. How do you all do on Brinstar? It's one of Olimar's "sort of" bad stages, or at least it is in a lot of matchups. I'm having trouble of thinking of anything else, to be honest.

As for what to ban against us, considering you live in a conservative region (i don't), your main ban would probably be Halberd. However, most Olimar's have extremely different tastes in stage selection. Fino will take you to Rainbow Cruise, along with most other characters. I'll almost all of the time take a Lucario to Delfino, since three phases of the stage (one of which being extremely common, the main platform) provide an increase in purples. The shallow water sections increase blues to almost twice as much (which i consider to be the second best pikmin for the matchup), and the shapes of the sections such as the beach (which also increase purples, reds, and yellows), the section with stairs, and the section with the red awning, give us ways to force you to come at us in awkward angles, which Olimar is extremely good at punishing. The shine gate and roof top as well, to an extent, but not nearly as much. However, very few Olimar's love delfino as much as I do, so you probaby won't end up being taken there, and I mostly just love talking about how much I love the stage lol.
Yeah I wouldn't take Olimar to Pictochat, regardless of the high ceiling. But flame, in your post, from what I can see, I agree 100%. As for what was wrong, after looking through your posts I can't really find much of anything, haha. You seem to know the matchup really well. I can give more insight from the Olimar's point of view (especially regarding stage matchups), but you seem to have covered it extremely well.

Olimar on Japes:
Olimar's main goal in this matchup, on any stage is to stay the hell away from you at all costs. This is made extremely easy on Japes for several reasons. The main one being... we have a completely safe place to run. Not only do we have a place to run, but this place is ONLY found on this one stage. A safe ledge. This meaning, we are able to grab the ledge, attack you from the ledge, attack you from beneath the stage, grab the other ledge, without having to use our tether, leave to the main stage without having to go past you in any way, or even drop entirely into the water and restart the whole situation.

If Olimar is on the right phase, Lucario CAN'T be on the center platform, seeing as how you have no way of out camping us from that spot. If you have a percent lead, sure, you can make it to where we have to approach, or we would have to come a bit closer to camp, or force us to the center of the stage, but if you don't plan on running out the clock, you have to approach us, coming to the right section where we're dominate.

You could almost call it planking >.> Taking advantage of the ledge attacking anything above it with up airs. It's likely that you can perfectly space a down air while on top of the platform to hit us, but our spacing has to be off as well. Otherwise you only get hit. And if it's a yellow, you get hit either way. Lucario is able to do something similar with his up air, but the only difference with yours and ours is that ours stays out quite a bit longer and has a lot more range.

However, the main reason, planking aside, is that you are not able to gimp us. Japes is an extremely big stage and forcing us to the left of the stage will be beyond difficult. A smart Olimar won't let this happen. And if you succeed in doing so, there are several ledge and tether games we have in order to get onto your right and get our positioning back.

Lucario's main objective in this matchup on any stage is to force us to the ledge, for the gimp. However, forcing us to the right side of japes is pointless. There are three ledges in that area if we HAVE to be defensive. And while on other stages, where we would get cornered against a ledge, praying to not get gimped, we can merely use the ledges as our crutch on Japes. And if we DO get gimped... well, there's the water that saves us as well.

So in short, your main form of killing us, gimps, is gone. Your main approach, if we're on the right side, is gone. Lucario has no way of outcamping us when we're in different sections, does not have a tool capable of forcing us off of the ledge, and it is extremely difficult for you to hit us while we're below the right platform.

The right side of Japes is broken for Olimar, with the only problem being that if we DO go into the water, all of our non blue pikmin die, and the blues are often times stuck below the stage. But that's better than us dying at least, and it only takes 9 frames to pluck a pikmin. And we only need one to defend ourselves if you're pressuring us after we get out of the water.

Many believe that Olimar relies only on vertical KOs. However, my favorite smash is, without a doubt, Olimar's Down Smash, due to its horizontal range, speed, and overall killing ability. And this attack on japes is amazing. There's also our back and forward throws for kills as well, though not to the same extent, and also forward air and smash. And if we camp you until you're around 150%, which will happen a lot of the time, up smash CAN still be used for kills, as well as up throw.

Whenever someone takes me to japes (I've had two lucarios do so) I make sure I tell them in advance how annoying gay I'm about to play, because people oftentimes get mad at me >.>

But not all Olimars will do this to you, or know about it, so if you really think it'll work it may :laugh:

Okay okay, castle seige. I can really see this being a legit counterpick for you against us. You won't want any part of us during the second phase, but during the first and third you'd mess us up, for reasons stated earlier. It should also be noted that on the third phase of castle seige, the stage is a type of terrain that causes Olimar's pikmin pluck to increase from nine frames to thirteen. Don't ask me why, it just does >.>

Also, it was mentioned awhile back by Myth, but here is Olimar's frame data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225377

It isn't completed yet and doesn't have much detail :/
I haven't had the chance (or the hacks available to me) to finish the rest of it but really want to @_@
I wouldn't do Pirate ship.
Having mostly water prevents you from gimping him, and it makes chances of blue pikmin (since other pikmin die in the water) increase, meaning fthrow/bthrow will kill o_O.
I think Picto can do some things to Oli though, The hazards can reduce how campy he can get.
PS1 I'm not sure, but something tells me that the stage can be icky to play Oli against, since Weruop CPs this stage a lot (at least against MK).
I think Lylat, Pictochat, Frigate, and Poke Stadium 2 are good stages however.
Lylat has stupid tilting, but that messes with Oli's recovery more than ours, since we can at least curve and has a good ledgesnap. Ceiling is also decently high, and the tilt messes with his superior camp game/grab game.
Picto I already mentioned, high ceiling, hazards imo mess with Oli more than you
Frigate is obvious.
Poke stadium, here's why I think it could possibly be good:
Overall has high ceiling, platforms can help, pretty nicely spread, you have some breathing room.
Electric mode: I don't know for sure who has the upper hand. Having that central part of the stage means A LOT for both chars, since Oli doesn't want to risk camping as much with pikmin on the treadmill parts and it could reduce his chances of surviving, but Oli can do pretty nasty things if you are forced to the sides.
Ice mode: Does a lot of wacky things, but can most importantly mess with his spacing, and since we are doing far more things in the air, we don't have to worry about the stage much.
Wind mode: This is **** for lucario, Oli getting in the air is bad in this MU, you have a holiday on this part.
Rock mode: The layout is weird, but the slopes can mess up his grabbing, just make sure you stay as much in the air as possible, the platforms can help, but beware of sharking utilts or uairs.
I think this MU has the most bizarre stage picks, all of which are dependent more on the comfort of the CPer more than anything.
For Neutrals, I'd say YI/BF if you have them available.




Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.
 

culexus・wau

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Its ever so slightly luck based too.

pikmin pluck pulling like 4 purples on the last stock = :(
 

G-Beast

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someone needs to explain to me why its even any advantage of any from in olimars favor, what does he honestly have on us and how easy is it to get through?
 

Zucco

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he outcamps Lucario and you must approach if you want to do damage to him. thats why its in his favor.
 

hough123

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My firend's Olimar isn't great, but it's taught me some things.

If you're stuck above Olimar at high percent, your dair could protect you. (Although using your double jump with an air dodge is the smarter idea) Fmashing a grounded Olimar is not a good idea. His fmash comes out much faster than yours., and you will get hit. Also, I don't reccomend it, but you can use DT when pikmin are on you. Maybe helpful for recoveries, but you will nearly always have better options. (If you do use it, try not to do it again. DT is extremely punishable) When they meet, Olimar's uair beats out our dair nine times out of ten, so be careful using it.

If an Olimar is low on pikmin, and\or is waiting to pluck them, get them in the air. An Olimar with two or less pikmin is nearly useless in the air, but only if you keep him there with aerials or grabs. Try to move him towards the edge to get an easy gimp. The thing to remember for this is that he can still fight back, no matter how mant pikmin he has. Once he's on the ground, let up on the assault.

Any inaccuracies should be pointed out, but this is just my two cents.
 

culexus・wau

Purchased premium only to change name ><
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You can SDI out of Uair and then dair and it'll do that weird Fast fall momentum shift thingie and hit olimar if he doesn't fast fall the uair.

I've fair'd through the uair too on occasion but it was always fast falled and from an angle where he should've UpB'd me anyway :\

You can also beat his Fsmash with any hitbox lol
 

Vionce

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It's worth knowing that Aura Sphere charge will wall off pikmin toss and smashes (not sure about usmash though).
 

hough123

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You can SDI out of Uair and then dair and it'll do that weird Fast fall momentum shift thingie and hit olimar if he doesn't fast fall the uair.

I've fair'd through the uair too on occasion but it was always fast falled and from an angle where he should've UpB'd me anyway :\

You can also beat his Fsmash with any hitbox lol
I meant that if you both are about to, his will come out faster than yours.
Assuming that you were talking to me.
 

Kitamerby

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I meant that if you both are about to, his will come out faster than yours.
Assuming that you were talking to me.
Olimar's Uair is not 3 frames lol.


In terms of sheer range and vertical disjoint, though, Uair does beat our Dair. :\


Also, Phil, try using Olimar's uthrow when a piranha plant drawing spawns on Pictochat and you'll see one of the reasons they CP that stage.
 

hough123

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Olimar's Uair is not 3 frames lol.


In terms of sheer range and vertical disjoint, though, Uair does beat our Dair. :\


Also, Phil, try using Olimar's uthrow when a piranha plant drawing spawns on Pictochat and you'll see one of the reasons they CP that stage.
I meant that for fsmash.
I should really label things in my posts, sorry.
 
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