NEW Match-Up Discussion Week #3: Marth!

Denzi · Jan 13, 2010

Okay so this is a pretty controversial matchup that a lot of people have been asking for, so I figured it'd be best to make it an official discussion before the boards get clogged with "lol how i beat Marf" threads.

So here we go, discuss!

Denzi · Jan 13, 2010

Also I figured it'd be a good idea to re-post this:

The Marth matchup is a tricky one; requiring the utmost degree of patience precision and advanced meta-game. Presently we should all look to DEHF’S matches against mikeHAZE as a learning tool. I feel he was overly aggressive causing him the game and punished when trying to recover to the stage. I am by no means saying he didn’t play exceptionally well but he didn’t bring that patience and precision I saw in his new set against Tyrant's Metaknight. As Falco's we must always look to be reactionary. Except when comboing or Lazering. I saw DEHF being punished for the same things I find myself being punished for especially when phantasming back onto stage. A good Marth can punish that often enough for the expected value of the attack to be too low to use--ever. (We can still do our running away into reverse phantasm trick but not the full blown recovering from an attack, unless we are hitting the ledge every time( be wary of ledge hog))

Our chain-grab only works if buffered perfectly, so without that skill honed to a perfection avoid the chain-grab.

All of your tilts have a purpose!
Foraward tilt- quick good spacer, when down angled can induce gimpage.
Up tilt- 4 frames to start need I say more ! 4 FRAMES !
Down tilt - Secret 150% killer weapon thats ninja quick I mean if it ever gets that high its an easy move to sneak in for the kill.

Nnair Bair and Dair are all amazing and should be short hop spamed. Uair should be saved fresh for its killing potential.

Marth whole game is trying to camp you with his swords range. The following is on the Marth boards: “Falco has no good options to deal with your zoning. All of your pokes outrange his” If he succeeds and you find yourself constantly at the tip of his blade you have 2 options. Back up & create space this is done by interchanging the following moves your phantasm, dash dance, spot dodge, and roll away. You should almost always be waiting for the Marth to bait a move then tag him for a bit of damage and space again.

We can also stay very close to Marth moving through him to avoid his attacks and punishing from behind also abusing our incredible spot dodge (but avoid doing it to many times in a row (3 is the most you should possibly go, because that’s roughly how long it would take a good opponent to realize your repeating the move)) I do not obviously advocate rolling behind the Marth unless he has already started the move in your direction otherwise he will just reveres sword dance.

Short lazers in this matchup do not make babies—except when being charged by a Marth. I personally advocate shooting him with headshots all day. Eventually (unless he is perfect shielding every shot) his shield will no longer be covering his face (I am aware they have control over their shield but if we can make them go to that trouble we are doing good)

The Marth perspective on Falco’s lasers is that our lasers “are quite honestly not much of a problem at all for Marth.” I have a problem believing this, when I beat a Marth it is because I have gayzered the **** out of him with back flip head shots all day long. Whenever he gets rash you punish him.
Your other option is to camp inside his range get really tight on him and just work him with jabs and sh-dair looking for the tech chase off the roll into a forward smash or a dash attack. In the air he has the ability to dodge most our laser shots but if we are paying enough attention we can guide him right into an aerial of our own just by manipulation where he can go with lasers.

Keep in mind falco’s fsmash will beat a fair approach from the marth, but you will have to predict his forward air or have just enough space and quick enough reflexes.

Everything ties back to the same thing in this matchup; you must be a reactionary Falco. Marth straight up beats us in a fair fight. When ahs Falco ever fought fair, we are stealthy cunning assassins that do it from behind. We need to be constantly creating space or positioning ourselves behind a move lagged Marth. We need to constantly bait him into making mistakes and we need to constantly look for openings and combo’s but as soon as the Marth is out of hit stun go back to baiting and racking up damage with your laser.

I don't even know if all of this is right, I'll go through it when I have time.

Teran · Jan 13, 2010

From now on, all matchup threads will be directed by Denzi unless he gives the task to someone else.

To keep things clean, Denzi will be the official matchup man. Well he is Discussion Leader and all so I guess it's appropriate.

DEHF · Jan 13, 2010

reflector is really good for edge guarding in this match up

MetalMusicMan · Jan 13, 2010

DEHF said:
reflector is really good for edge guarding in this match up

Offstage? On the side? Both? I am terrible at this matchup because I have no experience with it. Any and all elaboration would be greatly appreciated. I wish I could contribute with more than "dancing blade is annoying, camping is hard, doing anything without getting punished is hard", lol.

DEHF · Jan 13, 2010

It's good off stage because it pushes them slightly down and away regardless of %. If you shield the 3rd hit of dancing blade you have enough time to up smash out of shield.

clowsui · Jan 13, 2010

there are so many things that are not always accurate or accurate at all about that long post

i think it's even...pretty sure larry does too

if you guys want an explanation then request away

gopobox · Jan 13, 2010

I demand an explanation at clowsui. o_O.
I have no experience with marth but i know that you have to look out for marths gay CG on falco. The fthrow>fthrow>dair and the other one with fthrow>fthrow>dthrow>dthrow>dthrow>fsmash.

MetalMusicMan · Jan 13, 2010

DEHF said:
It's good off stage because it pushes them slightly down and away regardless of %. If you shield the 3rd hit of dancing blade you have enough time to up smash out of shield.

Thanks, I will have to try this out.

DEHF · Jan 13, 2010

gopobox said:
I demand an explanation at clowsui. o_O.
I have no experience with marth but i know that you have to look out for marths gay CG on falco. The fthrow>fthrow>dair and the other one with fthrow>fthrow>dthrow>dthrow>dthrow>fsmash.

Marth actually has a better one than the fthrow > dthrow one. He can do 10 dthrows to a tippered f smash which does 51%, but it's really hard to do. Falco also has a cg which does 0-25 into a dair which can lead into another grab if they don't try to up b. That does just as much as the marth's cg which they most likely won't try to do since falco can laser camp and a fair or side b is much easier to land than a grab as marth.

gunterrsmash01 · Jan 13, 2010

platform camp to avoid 0-death, or just stay in the middle of the stage

dash attack is only thing we have against marths spacing, jab to ftilt is also very good

50-50

Vlade · Jan 13, 2010

If a Marth is dashing towards you, just dash attack

Just for the love of god avoid being above marth like the plague (same goes for pretty much every other character except marth punishes this kind of zone the most painfully)

Shaya · Jan 13, 2010

Get damage advantage,
plank.

The reality of the match up when a ledge grab rule isn't at the tournament.
Not saying Marth can just hit you once and then proceed to time you out,
but Falco will struggle severely trying to punish Marth with this if he isn't being an idiot (i.e. the ledge drop fair into dolphin slash without reading and using a jump if needed; or not knowing how to do the quick ledge regrab).

On stage it's reasonably even. Marth has the tied fastest walk in the game and can only afford to dash just as you rise from the shdl. Falco's dash attack is good, but it does ask Marth to dancing blade it more often.

Jab to stop phantasm, which if it tippers at about 100% should combo into dsmash that can kill.

Can afford to go off stage if Falco isn't well above Marth's full hop height and fair phantasm in its start up frames for the gimp.

Desperation from Falco when Marth is patiently (with percent lead) playing with walking and power shields can result in getting grabs (which Falco avoids follow ups from fthrow/uthrow at like any percent), or the use of dtilt which can severely hurt Falco (Falco's fall speed making it a viable tech chase tool; or if they DI up putting them in a terrible position where their only option is to side b which is telegraphed in this sense. If they get the dtilt near the edge Falco's in gimp set up territory).

Normal things such as the CG. Dthrow to tipper working from a non-decayed dthrow up until 16%.

Marth being able to standing pivot grab phantasm, pivot grab most landings in a non-neutral situation, smash di jab to uair/fair.

Falco's down throw (including the CG, not just that purely) is the most... "evening" thing in the match up.

Denzi · Jan 14, 2010

DEHF said:
If you shield the 3rd hit of dancing blade you have enough time to up smash out of shield.

3rd hit in which direction?

DEHF · Jan 14, 2010

The direction doesn't matter

Notra · Jan 14, 2010

i honestly believe this is a 40:60 match-up. when it comes to momentum, it is much harder fr falco to stop marth, than math to stop falco. marth can interrupt almost all of our combos. hit us out of phantasm w/ jab to a free fsmash. there r so many ways this is in marths favor. hes faster so camping doesnt work too well either. marth succeeds everywhere meta fails in combo breaking us. + we really have no jab. b up can stop even the second jab animation. not fun.

fyi im back............

M@v · Jan 14, 2010

I dont like using ratios, but I think this is 55:45-60:40 Marth's advantage. I play this matchup A LOT, so here goes....

Ground games:
Falco got the camping advantage, but forget up close. Marth pretty much wrecks falco unless Falco is within grab range...
Interesting note though: Your Fsmash has as much range as Marth's, if not more.
If marth gets close, get away. Your best spacing tool is ftilt. Don't be aggressive for the kill especially at high percents. Marth has one of, if not the best, up-bs OoS in the game.

Aerial game: Marth's main weakness is below him. He has a harder time than most getting out of juggling. Of all your aerials, upair and bair are the best for aerial attacks imo. Nair and dair should only be used in shs. Ex. Nair through platform, dair after cg, etc. Your bair can't beat his fair, or nair, but it still has plenty of range.

Grab game:
Ok, both sides have low percent chaingrabs, but most already know this.
Falco: 3 buffered dthrows from 0% to dair
Marth: 0-death near the ledge or 0-27% on stage(2 throws to tipper fsmash).

Its not worth going for the grab; please dont. Camp the center of the stage so you don't get 0-deathed.
Mindgames: You could always do one or two buffered cgs, and stop. If the marth was mashing upb, he will do it while your shielding, and free fsmash or whatever you want to do :D

Offstage. This is where I hate marth. If the marth knows what hes doing its a pain in the *** to recover. He can come out to fair and nair you, or stay on stage and try to bait an fsmash. One tactic the marth I face all the time uses is this: Stands right next to the ledge so if I go for it he ledge hogs. If I go on stage I illusion right into a dancing blades combo or an fsmash/upsmash. If I go high he upairs. As Larry said, you can reflector him to edge guard, try a bair(risky though), or just spam lasers.

Stages:
Dont take him to stage with a lot of platforms(like bf). Keep in mind a platform is nice to have so you can camp it to avoid 0-deaths. Cps would be FD, SV, Ps1, and maybe even yoshi's if your willing to put up with the disadvantages you receive too.

If you want to take him to a stage like ps1 or delfino, be wary of his dtilt lock on walls.

I think halberd wouldn't be bad either if your willing to put up with the advantage he has on the first phase.

o0 DR3W 0o · Jan 14, 2010

Camp/phantasm/bair & dair/ftilt

Use those smartly along with good spacing and you got it.

55:45 Marth

samsonites101 · Jan 15, 2010

I remember playing a friendly with mikehaze where I ended up winning because I got ahead first stock since he was really aggressively going for the cg. I got him to like 60-70% before getting out of cg % range. I think that's another possible key thing in this matchup, using their desire for the cg to your advantage. I always wonder is it possible to to space well enough vs marth to avoid the cg consistently. I basically just try to figure out what the marth is trying to hit me with and use that knowledge to my advantage.

GPEternity · Jan 15, 2010

the 10x dthrow thingy is bull, don't believe it. at around 27%, if marth dthrows falco can di into marth and bair him. marth's cg goes from 0-20 with a tipper fsmash at 20 for 40-41 damage. also, because marth has 1 dthrow in both directions he can pick the closest edge to fsmash you towards and go into a gimp attempt.

marths upB will go through basically all of falcos combo attempts unless your ready for it.

ds is a preferred punisher, you can usmash out of shield, and if you get hit by the first slash di down and hold your shield button, if marth does not execute the combo fast enough you can get a powershield, just make sure your ready to di up if you get hit by the fourth swing otherwise your in a horrible position off stage.

marth can dash under shlasers. you can meet him head on with your dash attack or phantasm but don't be predictable because you don't want to get caught by marth shield cancelling his run.

DEHF · Jan 15, 2010

This match up is 50-50 The f throw spike can be SDIed so that you land onto the stage if you're not too far off the stage.

Falco can camp with projectiles and Marth can't. Falco also does decently against Marth close range although Marth still has the advantage up close.

Gmoney_ · Jan 15, 2010

DEHF said:
This match up is 50-50 The f throw spike can be SDIed so that you land onto the stage if you're not too far off the stage.

Last time i tested this, I couldn't do it. Actually iirc, ALL of marth's tippers can't be SDIed at all. Your best bet jere is to revers up b and hope the marth edgehogs you instead of edge guard you

#HBC | ZoZo · Jan 15, 2010

Yeah, Marth's tippers cant be SDI'd. Chaingrab is always better if you're to far gone from the edge. You can also do the uber Bleachigo Firebird stall on BF (it doesnt work on pal though D

55:45 or 50:50, personally it's 55:45, but that's because I play against Ramin. If I were a Falco of a higher caliber it's easily 50:50.

Shaya · Jan 15, 2010

Marth's tipper dair doesn't have cinematic DI.

Dthrow x10 is definitely real from 0%.
:|
SHAYA CONFIRMED.

BleachigoZX · Jan 15, 2010

Yo, its even.

Falco is broken enough to have all those disadvantages and still compete.

It's true.

thexsunrosered · Jan 15, 2010

lol cinematic DI

so legit

Yumewomiteru · Jan 15, 2010

Whats the uber Bleachigo firebird stall on BF?

#HBC | ZoZo · Jan 15, 2010

Go to the top platform, firebird upwards, take 1%, repeat till you're out of chaingrabbing percents.

Notra · Jan 15, 2010

i dunno, we rly cant camp marth. phantasm, if read(providing they can, dont care how good we r at our falco games =] ) equals jab to fsmash/ftilt. and he can catch up mad easy. so at best id say 45:55 falco. we just dont have any safe moves, or ways to keep momentum.

sure we can win. but we have to get the marth to play our game. and like someone said. GET THE FIRST STOCK. makes **** so much better.

GPEternity · Jan 15, 2010

Shaya said:
Marth's tipper dair doesn't have cinematic DI.

Dthrow x10 is definitely real from 0%.
:|
SHAYA CONFIRMED.

2x fthrow -> 10x dthrow or just 10x dthrow?

King Funk · Jan 15, 2010

How to win against Marth: play like that.

clowsui · Jan 15, 2010

this is even for falco

u guys need to stop attacking so much and just trying to reset if you're not going to win the trade, it's easy to see when that's going to happen

the most important thing when fighting against marth is to understand that you're competing for space. you want space so that you're not getting hit + you have a chance to be annoying, he wants the space you're occupying to extend his active stage control and hit you. in other words it's stage control. once you understand the central concept of the matchup drawing extrapolations becomes way easier

you are going to win when it comes to stage control, while marth has a good dash speed he also has the slowest dash->shield animation in the game. similarly while his aerial mobility is good even if he jumps you have the advantage since you control what he's jumping over. furthermore he has trouble dealing w/ strategic rolls but people don't seem to know how to roll properly nowadays but w/e. marth can beat dash attack punishments for him dashing with dancing blade out of the dash but you can take it, you're going to win most of the time anyways since, if marth is dashing and you roll behind him you win unless he stops somehow.

in an up close encounter marth wins about 60% of the time...it's due to dtilt and falco's shield being bad, as well as db beating spotdodge if you don't time well. to counter act this...just reset if you can, buffering a roll out of a spotdodge during db means you're safe. shieldbreaker can be beat on reaction by timing a spotdodge as the shield breaker hits your shield, the buffered spotdodge as a command takes priority over the shield break IIRC.

jabs should be used mostly out of dthrow and if you know how to use it you can also perform psuedo shield pressure with it by making marth option select at close range...it's psuedo due to up b but on flat stages that you want to fight on any ways that's removed due to the option select.

start catching marth on landing more and also start juggling him more, marth sucks at getting to the ground. the only thing that could possibly trick you is a b reverse SB which can be baited to give marth a positional disadvantage or his good horizontal air speed, which loses to fast falling if you are positioned correctly. also do dehf's double laser ledge traps and more ledge traps in general. 2nd most important part about fighting against marth is trapping

oh start learning how to vertically change up phantasm, it's very useful vs. marth

ftilt vs. marth to punish mis-spacings. dash attack works well too. if you can use fsmash or bair to punish also. upward kills are easier against marth as a result of how his character works

@notra: keeping momentum isn't what a matchup is about at all. when it's played as its supposed to be ddd vs. falco involves 0 momentum really, it's just falco winning more trades than ddd

MetalMusicMan · Jan 15, 2010

King Funk said:
How to win against Marth: play like that.

Wow. That's really impressive-- was Mike off that day or are you really just that good at the Marth matchup, DEHF? lol

Because I saw him play against SK92 and it was a really great and close set, but you 2 stocked him 3 games in a row there... very impressive stuff.

The SK92 vs MikeHaze set I'm talking about is this one:

1 of 3

2 of 3

3 of 3

VibeSlyph · Jan 15, 2010

Well, i'm a Marth main, Falco second, so i'm interested in this Lol.

I think following up your lazors effectively, and then backing away to do more lazors works pretty well against Marth at mid percents.

thexsunrosered · Jan 16, 2010

me and ozz just played this set today. I went falco and he was marth and we finished with him winning 2-1. Every game went to the last stock and if I remember correctly the first two we were both over 100%. After playing it, I feel like the match up is 55:45 in marths favor. It's sooo close either way but I definitely think that marth has the advantage just because of that chance tipper **** that can happen lol

BleachigoZX · Jan 16, 2010

lmao at you guys considering my "Bleachigo 1%, yo!" strat!

I'm going to get it on Youtube next time I go to tourney, I promise.

Xyro77 · Jan 16, 2010

marth beats falco.

BleachigoZX · Jan 16, 2010

I'm pretty sure more people agree that it is even.

erick gm14 · Jan 16, 2010

if anything its marths by like a little.. fsmash seems to work for me also, the wind hit box out ranges marths fair.

MetalMusicMan · Jan 16, 2010

Xyro77 said:
marth beats falco.

yeah i've always thought it was 60:40 in marth's favor... but i'm really intrigued by DEHF's performance vs MikeHaze... so I dunno...

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