Match-Up Discussion Week #4: Diddy!

Denzi · Jan 25, 2010

Okay, this week we'll do the diddy matchup.

This crazy monkey has been working his way up the tier list, and is widely considered to be one of the best characters in the game. Do we have what it takes to beat this ape, or will his bananas bring about our doom?

Discuss!

Basic summary:

Diddy vs falco is either 55-45 or 60-40 falcos favor. 55-45 assuming they can SDI. It's kinda hard and you have to SDI the dash attack it really helps so you don't get hit with 50 percent combos. The way to SDI is Up and away. Diddy is also harder to grab so don't really go for it just let it come. Diddy has an up tilt up tilt then up smash or bair combos on falco that you can't really SDI its only at like 0-15 percent. I learned that dash attack is good in the match up and you can also shield grab his dash attack for a grab. If diddy is of the stage you can forward b back to the ledge to get your invisible frames back. If he is below you the best way to gimp diddy is back air, gimping diddy really helps. Vs Diddy's like Adhd and Felix Don't be predictable with the way you throw bananas back at them cause the can Z catch and instant throw it back right away. You can air dodge on to banana's and use them I like teaming with diddy cause you can do cool things with them like banana throw then up smash or dash atck to re-grab the banana. If you get a chain grab and a banana is in the way dash attack up smash to grab the banana and deal a good amount of damage. Diddy is a lot heavier then he looks so he dies around 120-135% from up smash depending on where you hit with it and the di but thats the percent its safe to use at. Shine is another useful tool but you have to be smart about it even though it may seem diddy can't punish Felix found a way to get around it he down tilts whick ducks him under the shine (pretty gay) and down tilts and he keeps his banana in his hand as well then he uses the banan to get a grab or smash but if you shine the banana back and hit diddy with it as well its a nice 10-12%. Diddy is a weird match up and it can go either way but these are tips I learned from fighting diddy.

Vlade · Jan 25, 2010

Try and gimp his barrel with bair

Otherwise I don't know many specifics about this matchup

Denzi · Jan 25, 2010

Vlade said:
Try and gimp his barrel with bair

Otherwise I don't know many specifics about this matchup

I get a lot of opinions on this one. Some say Bair, some say Fair, and some say Shine. I dunno what works best because I don't really know the MU either.

Vlade · Jan 25, 2010

I was mainly thinking like when you're on the ledge, just ledgedrop bair when he's going to sweetspot

M@v · Jan 26, 2010

This matchup is all about timing your reflector right and using it wisely. If you predict his nanner throws correctly you mop the floor with this ape. keep making bad reads and your going to get nanner combod all over the place.

MetalMusicMan · Jan 26, 2010

I know that it doesn't feel like 60-40 our favor to me... even though that's what I keep hearing from most people.

It feels more like 55-45 or 45-55.

However, like Marth, this is a matchup that I don't have much experience in, so I'll leave my sentiments at that for now.

Vlade · Jan 26, 2010

This is universal:

When versing Diddy, **** him when he pulls out his bananas. DO NOT give him a chance to bthrow you because then he just gets to pull them out for free. If you can grab one of diddy's bananas at high% then you may have an easier time killing too, though I still find bair to be the most effective for killing in this matchup

MetalMusicMan · Jan 26, 2010

I've had most of my success killing him with bair gimps as well. I have decent banana control once I get ahold of them--lasers and glide toss give Falco some decent options--but it only takes one opportunity for him to wrack you from 0 to like 80 with banana craziness and whatnot...

I also find that it is VERY easy for Diddy to punish the reflector... everyone says "just reflect bananas", but he can catch them and continue his game easily, plus he can easily punish the reflector before you catch it so you're kind of helpless if you reflector at certain times.

While both characters struggle with kill power, Diddy has much better kill setups and is more likely to get a kill one Falco, assuming Falco can't gimp him... which generally isn't as easy as it sounds if the Diddy is decent.

Again, I don't have a whole lot of experience in this matchup, but way back when I went to the first Kakuna Matata, I 2-0'd Count's Diddy in pools, and he's pretty good I think... but I get ***** by other Diddys... it's weird.

I dunno, I seem to agree more with what Red Halberd says on this matchup than what most Falco mains say:

RedHalberd said:
While concerning the old metagame I see how this is possible, I haven't heard anything about top falcos doing well against Diddy's in a long time.

That's because I see this game in terms of mixups, not just options

You could say on paper Falco should beat Diddy but it doesn't seem to happen (ADHD beating SK and DEHF, Dekar beating DEHF).

For example, people might say (Falco can reflex bananas) but he gets punished way to hard for missing to the point where once your opponent starts baiting it it's highly risky. Diddy can shield Side B and punish with a banana OOS, and I can't see Falco doing anything to Diddy even if he forces an approach if Diddy is holding a banana. And if Diddy can play without getting grabbed, I dont see how Falco would have an advantage starting from 0%.

Also once Diddy gets ahead, Falco should get punished for every single kill attempt until one succeeds (Plus Diddy should have a much easier time killing). And If Diddy gets close enough to Falco he can't SH laser because Diddy can throw a banana at his landin (Which sorta ***** SHlasers in general).

If Diddy plays the matchup right I can't see Falco having an advantage, and to be honest it looks more like Diddy's advantage, even if not by much.

DEHF · Jan 26, 2010

I'm unsure about this match up, but I think it's 55-45 falco at the moment

~ Gheb ~ · Jan 26, 2010

This match-up couldn't be more even. 5/5

Bloodcross · Jan 26, 2010

Diddy can SDI up towards Falco and Uair through Falco's Full Jab. Throwing repeated Jab Cancels or Jab Cancel to Grab or Ftilt is better. Reflector is useful, however a good Diddy won't just blindly throw it at you. He'll likely bait the Reflector then proceed to Side-B; it's not worth it imo to just throw a banana after he's waited for the Reflector animation to end. What I do is SH Retreating Reflector, as my goal is to simply prevent myself from getting nanner ***** and keep my distance.

General notes: If Diddy throws a Nanner directly at your shield, the nanner bounces up. You can then catch the Nanner with an Aerial, preferably Nair, FF'd Nair to be exact. But for an obvious point, you can't have your shield up forever.

More to come later.

Typ_Ex · Jan 26, 2010

id like to say i have fairly good diddy experience.

id say the matchup is even, if not in diddy's favor.

given if the diddy is patient, he could punish the reflector easily by glide tossing down or up while you're reflector is coming back. diddy's combos are more practical and easier to land than falcos, diddy has more aerial and ground mobility, and he has more killing moves than falco. id want to say its even that in the very beginning you have gimping potential. but if you dont gimp him with back air (which is the way i prefer to gimp diddys), than you lost the advantage.

MetalMusicMan · Jan 26, 2010

Well, I'm very glad to be hearing that people no longer think this is 60:40 our favor.

Looks like most of us are at least agreeing on the 45-55 to 55-45 range, then... we just need a few more regulars to weigh in

Jon? · Jan 26, 2010

I have a friend who plays a really good Diddy and the matchup seems about even.

Jab canceled grab is your test tool in this matchup. If you ever see yourself caught near the edge of the stage with a Diddy approaching with a banana, simply get out of that situation. Just roll away or phantasm.

It's very easy to punish Diddy's banana pull. Laser will be free hits and phantasm can catch them off by surprise if you are far away to punish.

If you can utilize Falco's glide toss, you can set up easy kills with bananas.

#HBC | ZoZo · Jan 26, 2010

let gregs post hes pro in this mu

BleachigoZX · Jan 26, 2010

I don't know know if anyone knows this but when you throw a nana straight down it does not stay with Falco's character model and it will slide forward until it is not in the same spot.

Get creative

Also never try to beat Diddy mains in "catch" because most of the good ones know how to catch them without screwing it all up.

Camp with a banana if possible, try to make it so that there is only 1 banana on screen at a time. (Throw yours away and catch any that Diddy brings out)

I've played ADHD a while back and this is what worked the most.

Just an idea...

[I think we have a Single-nana lock. (I mean we should if we fall faster than Diddy
+ we can autocancel aerials.)]

FBR lets get on this

thexsunrosered · Jan 26, 2010

BleachigoZX said:
I don't know know if anyone knows this but when you throw a nana straight down it does not stay with Falco's character model and it will slide forward until it is not in the same spot.

Get creative

Also never try to beat Diddy mains in "catch" because most of the good ones know how to catch them without screwing it all up.

Camp with a banana if possible, try to make it so that there is only 1 banana on screen at a time. (Throw yours away and catch any that Diddy brings out)

I've played ADHD a while back and this is what worked the most.

Just an idea...

[I think we have a Single-nana lock. (I mean we should if we fall faster than Diddy
+ we can autocancel aerials.)]

FBR lets get on this

I completely agree with this except one. If you have a banana but really can't hold on to it anymore, DONT just throw it away. In two seconds diddys just gonna pull the Banana you just threw away out of his *** and now you've gotten no where. What you should do is throw the banana up, or on the SV platform (if you're closest obviously). As long as the banana stays in play, diddy can only have one, while if you just throw it off the stage diddy can pull another out. As long as it isn't on the ground(and not in his possession >.>) you should be fine.

Also, bloodcross, watching your games against AZ made me really play the match up a lot differently. I'd never seen anyone play it like you did, and after watching, the next diddy I played I ***** so hard. So thanks :]

Wulfy07 · Jan 26, 2010

Throwing away a banana seems like an awful idea no matter how you phrase it. I had rather place it behind me or laser camp/run away (use B moves) until I lose it or I at least have a chance at using the banana. (If you can drop it in your possession and force Diddy to chase it or wait for it to disappear, you can use A moves and if they chase, predict they're obvious goal.)

If you wanted to throw it off, I suggest doing it so that you fake a throw at Diddy (over their head) so that if they try to pull out a new one, they get punished. If they jump for it, you might get a laser or maybe another move depending on how close you are.

The key to this match would seem to be (for me anyway) the ability to block bananas/control them as well as the Diddy Kong would when they've lost control of them. However, when we have the banana, it makes forward smash much easier to land which should kill at around 120% on Diddy, and I think Diddy has to get us a bit higher to land a clean kill move on us (cept for spike and up air, of course).

I would say roughly 55-45.

BleachigoZX · Jan 26, 2010

thexsunrosered said:
I completely agree with this except one. If you have a banana but really can't hold on to it anymore, DONT just throw it away. In two seconds diddys just gonna pull the Banana you just threw away out of his *** and now you've gotten no where.

You can just intercept the new one, but to each his own.

I'm sure my views are much more risky-er than anyone elses.

Gmoney_ · Jan 26, 2010

Diddy can get close easily if he's on a medium range. Try to keep the battle on a long range. If u get the CG early, that means he's prolly dead or he'll get a lot of damage. If u CG > spike him (spike around 30-40) and grab the ledge. If he jumps and start charging his upB, wait just a lil bit, release the edge (tap backwards not downwards on control stick) and do a non FF Fair. This will work 100% of the time in this situation. If the Diddy decides to DI away from the stage and charges his Upb for an other angle, be ready to Bair the **** out of him.
Try not to let diddy get momentum, he can rack up a lot of damage really quickly with his bananas. Try to keep a banana with u and just laser/ side B him. He'll be shielding or do dash attacks (to try catch the naner). Glide toss > U/Fsmash is also nice for a kill. Full jab combo can get punished with SDI Uair from diddy so try to end it asap or bait it (shield be4 he can hit u) and punish with Ftilt. If he has only one naner out and he throws u one just in front of u, u can bait him easily. Just wait and do a fsmash or something. He might try to get the naner with dash atk. You can SDI out of Diddy's Fsmash bij SDIing up.

AvaricePanda · Jan 26, 2010

By keeping the banana in play (throwing it up or behind you), Diddy has less options approaching you but you have nothing you can directly punish.

By throwing the banana off-stage, you can punish Diddy's attempt to banana pluck. It's riskier, and if you mess up he has a lot of approaching and defensive options back, but it's something that's pretty punishable especially if you're anywhere near him.

I don't have the best Falco experience (I'm a Diddy, btw) but what I've been trying to approach is crawling. It seems pretty good; unless Falco does perfect silent canceled lasers when he lands from a SHDL or he does standing lasers, Diddy can just crawl underneath the lasers (he has to stay moving though, I think). I'm pretty sure you can shield out of crawl anyway (but I don't know for certain, there might be a few more frames of start-up). Basically, this works well against bad Falcos that don't SHDL properly or like to spam reflector, because we can crawl under it and D-tilt.

By the way, don't spam reflector. I've had a lot more success getting around a reflecting Falco than I have against one that just uses smart OoS options. Diddy can crawl under it and D-tilt, jump around it and D-throw/back throw a banana or B-air, monkey flip kick on reaction and punish it, etc. Reflector only seems like a good tool when the Diddy you're playing is bad, otherwise things like OoS B-air or just safer play (I don't know how Falcos work, sorry) seems to combat banana play better.

The one thing that I see as a problem for Falcos in this match-up is landing a kill. Falco can not kill reliably at all. If I have a banana and just play safe when I'm at high percents, I don't die unless I majorly screw up (OoS glide toss is a really good defensive option). I usually end up living to 170%+ and get killed by B-air then ever get hit by a F-smash or U-smash at 120%. I seem to get from 0-80% easily, but after that it takes forever for Falco to finally land a killing move on me. That, IMO, is the one thing setting you back in the match-up.

Vlade · Jan 27, 2010

Oh yeah another thing I might add, try to punish dash attack as much as possible

I've learnt that in every matchup falco can get around his killing problem somewhat as long as he plays it safe and doesn't fish for it. I agree that it holds him back in this matchup in particular though since diddy punishes unsafe kill moves so well so it looks like bair is the way to go

Wulfy07 · Jan 27, 2010

Yeah, which makes saving back air key. Plus, we might be able to get a gatling combo if he doesn't see the up smash coming after the dash attack. (Or is Diddy's grab too fast?)

I would also say stay away from FD and have platforms for platform sharking for back air near kill percents. (What would Back air kill Diddy at, by the way?)

M@v · Jan 28, 2010

EC has a LOT of diddys. I've beaten most I've faced, but as much as I like to think this is 6:4 falco, if you screw up you can wrecked hard. Its probably 55:45.

o0 DR3W 0o · Jan 28, 2010

Play smart defense and don't force anything.

Vlade · Jan 29, 2010

Wulfy brings up a good point. What stages are good for falco? Is FD bad to play on?

FelixTrix · Jan 29, 2010

I'd say it's 50-50. or barely in falco's favor.

diddy is only at an adv. if you get the first kill. then you bait the upsmash/bair. it isn't too bad for diddy. just camp so you don't get cg'd, don't be aggressive, and use side b more than usual to catch him off guard. Falco's recovery is also really predictable/prone to getting gimped. you're only safe on SV or BF where you have recovery options.

andilex · Jan 29, 2010

watch put for diddy's side b side b side b

reverse side b

GunmasterLombardi · Jan 29, 2010

DEHF vs ADHD

Has this happened recently? It'll help a lot w/ the discussion.

p8nted · Jan 29, 2010

People talk a lot about how bananas **** Falco and use that to say it's even but Falco's whole goal when fighting this fight is to control the bananas. It's pretty obvious to me that Falco gets a hard disadvantage if he lets Diddy pull both bananas.

The 55-45 Falco comes when Falco knows banana tricks (instant re-throw, glide toss, etc.) and can use reflector/catching to control the stage. Spacing is difficult but key and Falco needs to stay a little further away than usual to avoid a random glide toss approach or side-b from Diddy and the retreating SH shine is by far the best way to reflect a banana. Also, something I've found useful is to sprint right next to Diddy when he starts to pull a nanner and reflect it before it hits the ground. Low to mid level players will not realize that Falco has control of the nanner and slip on it and you can bait the dash attack from a high level Diddy.

Falco gimps Diddy well but Diddy also gimps Falco and both have trouble landing kill moves which is why you'll see both players reach 150-200% fairly often. I agree with the general concensus that if Falco truly plays conservative and chips away at Diddy, it's 60-40 but one mistake gets him screwed over by banana shenanigans (bananegans?) so 55-45 Falco's favor sounds about right.

M@v · Jan 29, 2010

Vlade said:
Wulfy brings up a good point. What stages are good for falco? Is FD bad to play on?

Its not necessarily BAD, but there are better choices. My favorite neutral vs diddy is BF.

gunterrsmash01 · Jan 31, 2010

Ok im pretty experienced in this MU so i will actually help lol

1. Good diddys will use their Side B alot in this MU. Nair is your best bet against this

2. Catch bananas while in the air with your grab button, not shield button.

3. Recover safely cause diddys good at punishing phantasm

4. Dont do anything to diddys shield except jab and grab.

5. after you CG spike them you can grab the edge and either : quick regrab with illusion or bair gimp diddy.

6. Diddys spotdodge is a biiiiiitch. dont try punishing it with forward smash or dair or something. just jab.

7. For the most part you can sit back and laser/reflector but keep a good distance and dont get predictable with reflector, use dash attack to catch them too. when you get a banana dont just throw it away or back at them. keep it for a while and find a good moment. also Grabbing is important in this matchup.

8. try to have 1 banana on stage and 1 banana in your hand

9. DI out of their fsmash!

50-50

Bloodcross · Jan 31, 2010

Ozz. said:
5. after you CG spike them you can grab the edge and either : quick regrab with illusion or bair gimp diddy.

I prefer Fair gimp on Diddy. It's just more epic. But if Diddy DI's away from the stage and UpB's from another angle, then use Bair.

Everything else is good

DEHF · Feb 3, 2010

I got Nerd to explain the match up for me on AIM since he plays one of the best Diddy players in the West Coast all the time.

"Diddy vs falco is either 55-45 or 60-40 falcos favor. 55-45 assuming they can SDI. It's kinda hard and you have to SDI the dash attack it really helps so you don't get hit with 50 percent combos. The way to SDI is Up and away. Diddy is also harder to grab so don't really go for it just let it come. Diddy has an up tilt up tilt then up smash or bair combos on falco that you can't really SDI its only at like 0-15 percent. I learned that dash attack is good in the match up and you can also shield grab his dash attack for a grab. If diddy is of the stage you can forward b back to the ledge to get your invisible frames back. If he is below you the best way to gimp diddy is back air, gimping diddy really helps. Vs Diddy's like Adhd and Felix Don't be predictable with the way you throw bananas back at them cause the can Z catch and instant throw it back right away. You can air dodge on to banana's and use them I like teaming with diddy cause you can do cool things with them like banana throw then up smash or dash atck to re-grab the banana. If you get a chain grab and a banana is in the way dash attack up smash to grab the banana and deal a good amount of damage. Diddy is a lot heavier then he looks so he dies around 120-135% from up smash depending on where you hit with it and the di but thats the percent its safe to use at. Shine is another useful tool but you have to be smart about it even though it may seem diddy can't punish Felix found a way to get around it he down tilts whick ducks him under the shine (pretty gay) and down tilts and he keeps his banana in his hand as well then he uses the banan to get a grab or smash but if you shine the banana back and hit diddy with it as well its a nice 10-12%. Diddy is a weird match up and it can go either way but these are tips I learned from fighting diddy."

Yumewomiteru · Feb 3, 2010

Explain Jump Cancel toss to me please?

erick gm14 · Feb 3, 2010

diddy has too many options when he sets up a banana in front and spams peanut gun... if u time DACUS right u can catch the banana while its being thrown at u and upsmash diddys face in. its 45-55. or even. just learn the MU reall good. what is jump cancel toss?

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