Blog of the Week: Shadow of the Colossus is overrated.

Marc · Jan 29, 2010

Link to original post: [drupal=3008]Shadow of the Colossus is overrated.[/drupal]

Some games are brought up as sleeper hits time and time again, to the point where they become overhyped. One of the best examples of this phenomenon is Shadow of the Colossus for PS2, among the Top 10 most listed games of its generation in the GameFAQs Top 10 List feature (http://www.gamefaqs.com/features/top10/1927.html). Press was also unanimously positive about it, a quick look on www.gamerankings.com reveals a ranking of 91.53%, although it doesn’t come close to being a top score. After several recommendations I borrowed it from one of my admittedly more artsy friends and found myself disappointed.

The game has you playing as Wander, who enters a sacred land with an apparently dead girl. He enters the temple in the center of the land, puts the corpse on the altar and asks an entity named Dormin to resurrect her. Dormin agrees to this, but only if Wander murders the sixteen Colossi that inhabit the land. Wander sets out with his horse Agro to find and destroy the beasts, returning to the temple after every victory. Although the ending was mildly interesting, I just summarized all the background information the game provides you with. You never find out who the girl is, nor her relationship to Wander. While fans like to speculate even still, I mostly found myself puzzled at the lack of motivation to slaughter innocent beasts. I won’t spoil the ending, but I will say that it’s extremely predictable.

The real innovation lies with the gameplay: the game consists entirely of boss battles, although you do have to travel to them first. You start at the temple, raise your sword and follow the resulting beam of light towards your target. You kill it and repeat the same procedure another fifteen times. While there is significant variation among the Colossi, the Zelda-esque overworld is as barren as the average 70-year old woman. Contrary to what I expected, traveling towards the Colossi takes up a significant amount of your time through a world that is all but dead. With absolutely zero threats and no background music playing for most of the time, I quickly considered the traveling a chore. I’ve heard it called a minimalistic move by the developers to provide you with a sense of isolation, but calling upon this kind of “creator’s intent” seems like a cop-out to cover up what is essentially laziness. It made me appreciate the overworld in Twilight Princess, which I found quite tame, a whole lot more.

Battling the Colossi themselves is an interesting experience… the first few times. Once you get past the novelty of climbing (usually) huge beasts to stab them in their weak spots, you realize your biggest enemies are the inconsistent framerate and the clunky controls. Most of the Colossi fights carry a puzzle element, though hesitation leads to Dormin providing you with subtle hints as “it fears the flames” and “climb the tower to draw the colossus’s anger”. After the sixteenth Colossus and a measly 8 hours of gameplay, you’ve reached the end.

Having brought up these points before, discussion about the game is usually dealt a deathblow when someone remarks the experience compensates for everything and merits a high score on its own. This is not debatable, but I think reviewing games isn’t a complete matter of opinion. Some games are simply not up to par technically, this game being one of them. I do recommend looking up the soundtrack, some of the tracks played during the Colossi fights are incredible and don’t really shine till you listen to them without distraction (I hardly noticed them during the actual game). All in all, this game is a good example of an interesting idea with mediocre execution.

Summary:

+

Teran · Jan 29, 2010

Marc said:
Summary:

+

This alone makes it BotW worthy, but yeah, great read. :D

Jim Morrison · Jan 29, 2010

At first I did not recognize the second picture, but then I clicked it and saw kankercel and lolled a bit.

Caleb Wolfbrand · Jan 29, 2010

I just started playing Colossus myself, and I feel pretty much the exact same way you do. People tell me I just "don't get it" but I don't believe that really. It just feels like something of a dull game, not awful, just... not one of the best games ever like so many people want it to be. I feel the same way about FFVII too though, so...

Sosuke · Jan 29, 2010

It's not as much of a game as it is a "journey". It's an experience you shouldn't summarize. If you're not getting what it's trying to convey to you, then it's simply not "your kind of game".

It's really not like LoZ at all. Like, seriously. You're completely missing the point if you think it is.

Kholdstare · Jan 29, 2010

Comparing SotC to Twilight Princess is like comparing DDR to Guitar Hero.

El Nino · Jan 30, 2010

I'm not much of a game reviewer. I did like Shadow of the Colossus, but mostly for personal reasons rather than based off of a criteria for what constitutes a good game. I have a remarkably short attention span and very, very little time to spend on playing games. So when you hit me with a game with nothing but boss battles? Score.

I prefer the minimalist style, whether it was intentional or not. The time I spent trying to control the horse was interesting because the horse seemed to have a mind of its own. Epona turns exactly when you want her to. Agro, not so much. And the time spent traversing a simplistic, isolated landscape was what drew me in faster than most of the overblown action sequences and overwrought storylines I keep seeing in games. I find myself paying more attention when there are fewer things to look at, when the colors are more subdued.

Most adventure games send me racing through checkpoint after checkpoint, chasing one bright shiny thing after another. I look around only for things that stand out, things that might be treasure chests where I can find special items. I spend a lot of time looking, but very little time seeing.

In the absence of bright colors and noise, silence becomes incredibly loud. And when things are quiet is when I start listening for what small sounds I can hear.

I guess I also didn't need to know the answers in terms of the story. Sometimes, when games try to fill in the gaps, I lose interest. I am mostly unimpressed by the story-writing in a lot of media (games included). I don't really have to know Samus Aran's backstory. She runs around in a power suit and kills stuff. Good enough for me. And it's the same for Wander.

Melomaniacal · Jan 30, 2010

You thought the ending was predictable? My idea of a predictable ending would be... without spoiling anything, the opposite of what happened.

El Nino said:
I guess I also didn't need to know the answers in terms of the story. Sometimes, when games try to fill in the gaps, I lose interest. I am mostly unimpressed by the story-writing in a lot of media (games included). I don't really have to know Samus Aran's backstory. She runs around in a power suit and kills stuff. Good enough for me. And it's the same for Wander.

I think that's kind of a shame. There are so many games that are becoming so much more than, you know, "PEWPEWPEWPEW DEATH PEWPEWPEW EXPLOSIONS PEWPEWPEW." Games are actually becoming emotionally engaging. If you're choosing to ignore this, I really feel like your missing some of the best parts of gaming.

Not to say I think it's wrong of you as a person. If you chose to find that kind of stuff (good story telling, emotionally engaging... things) elsewhere, that's fine. But as a gamer (assuming you are one), you shouldn't block off some of the amazing story telling some games have to offer.

I guess I just have a great appreciation for when game creators go deeper than just mindless action.

Melomaniacal · Jan 30, 2010

Accidental double post.

El Nino · Jan 30, 2010

Melomaniacal said:
I think that's kind of a shame. There are so many games that are becoming so much more than, you know, "PEWPEWPEWPEW DEATH PEWPEWPEW EXPLOSIONS PEWPEWPEW." Games are actually becoming emotionally engaging. If you're choosing to ignore this, I really feel like your missing some of the best parts of gaming.

One of my favorite games was Tetris. Also, PacMan. No story needed, in either case.

If you chose to find that kind of stuff (good story telling, emotionally engaging... things) elsewhere, that's fine.

That's mostly it. I get my stories from books. (And life, I guess. Maybe.)

But as a gamer (assuming you are one), you shouldn't block off some of the amazing story telling some games have to offer.

I don't block myself off from story telling in games, I'm just largely unimpressed by most of it (not all of it).

I think Shadow of the Colossus had the right amount of story--that is, impressionistic sketches, hints at a deeper history that we don't get to see. The thing with story and gaming is that the story has to work with the structure of video games as a medium. That is not always easily, especially since I don't really gravitate towards interactive movies.

Maybe Wander becomes, in my mind, an engaging character due to his lack of overbearing traits--or, maybe, he is in fact more clearly defined than other characters who are only defined by dialogue and complicated backstory relayed through...hours of dialogue. Maybe it's because he's defined by his actions alone, and maybe that speaks more to his personality than words. Sometimes, it's the execution of the story that matters the most. Some games seem to have good concepts and good stories; not all of them execute those things well.

So, thinking about it, it isn't like I hate stories in games. I'm just more judgmental towards stories in any form. I'd like to see things done well, and when it isn't, I just tune out the talking and keep mashing buttons. But when it's done well, I do pay attention.

Edit: I think I come off as a snob. Well, eh, my interests are still pretty base and low-brow, in spite of all that blah blah blah up there.

Marc · Jan 30, 2010

TRC said:
I just started playing Colossus myself, and I feel pretty much the exact same way you do. People tell me I just "don't get it" but I don't believe that really. It just feels like something of a dull game, not awful, just... not one of the best games ever like so many people want it to be. I feel the same way about FFVII too though, so...

Heh, I am considering doing a FFVII review.

SauceKay said:
It's not as much of a game as it is a "journey". It's an experience you shouldn't summarize. If you're not getting what it's trying to convey to you, then it's simply not "your kind of game".

What is it trying to convey to me then?

It's really not like LoZ at all. Like, seriously. You're completely missing the point if you think it is.

The Zelda picture was obviously a joke to finish on a lighthearted note, unless you’re actually debating the Zelda-esqueness of the overworld and the means of traveling through it.

El Nino: Moments of silence make an impact when used sparingly. I tend to love quiet moments of reflection in every medium, but only if something has just happened or is about to happen (AKA if I feel involved). Dull traveling is not my idea of escaping from the journey to re-evaluate; a conversation under the starry sky or curling up in an inn is. That’s why events like that are RPG staples, because they are pleasant breaks.

I personally also don’t like stories filling in all the gaps for you, but in this game we don’t even know who the characters are. Wander has no actions of his own, it literally is all you. We don't know who the girl is or why she needs to be revived. We can guess, but what's the point in that? If I want to write a fanfic I'll stick to something I actually care about. I can understand considering non-stop action tiresome, but maybe that just means you need to look at old school games more. There are plenty of games out there with a good balance between calm and intense parts and stories that provide a solid foundation with you figuring out the rest. SotC gives you too little to work with, which is either lazy or pretentious as ****.

Red Arremer · Jan 30, 2010

Good review, I felt pretty much the same.

Granted, I didn't play it myself because clunky controls + Dual Shock = I can never ever beat this game. I watched a friend playing through it, though, at least like halfway (the last one I saw was that giant where you have to climb the beard, I think).

I mean, it's not specifically bad, it's just not as good as everyone seems to make it out to be. But I think just like with a lot of these more "artsy" games, it simply parts the crowd. There's people who love it and people who don't.

Ah well. Can't wait to see you reviewing FF7.

Sosuke · Jan 30, 2010

Marc said:
The Zelda picture was obviously a joke to finish on a lighthearted note, unless you’re actually debating the Zelda-esqueness of the overworld and the means of traveling through it.

Yeah, you use a horse you get around a big place.
I was referring to this:

Contrary to what I expected, traveling towards the Colossi takes up a significant amount of your time through a world that is all but dead. With absolutely zero threats and no background music playing for most of the time, I quickly considered the traveling a chore. I’ve heard it called a minimalistic move by the developers to provide you with a sense of isolation, but calling upon this kind of “creator’s intent” seems like a cop-out to cover up what is essentially laziness. It made me appreciate the overworld in Twilight Princess, which I found quite tame, a whole lot more.

See, this is why I said it's "not your kind of game".
The overworld is for exploration. There is no "laziness" at all. There's a lot of detail in the game if you actually go look around for it. The thing is that the game doesn't force you to go looking around, but you're meant to as part of the whole unique experience. Without doing so, you're missing out on a major part of the game.

The guy's name is "Wander". That's what you do. =/

Marc · Jan 30, 2010

Thanks, Joel.

SauceKay: Who says I didn't check out the world thoroughly? You traverse pretty much the entire world on your way to the Colossi anyway. I don't mind wandering around without objectives in small doses, but what incentives does the game offer to do so? The Zelda overworld doesn't force exploration either, but it does reward those who do with powerups and enemies to fight. SotC's overworld just feels unfinished in comparison.

Sosuke · Jan 30, 2010

Lizard tails increase your grip meter and fruits from trees increase your health.

Jim Morrison · Jan 30, 2010

Back in the day, when games didn't have a story...

Marc · Jan 30, 2010

SauceKay said:
Lizard tails increase your grip meter and fruits from trees increase your health.

Yeah, I got some of those but stopped when I realised it was pointless. The game was already easy enough and there wasn't much satisfaction in doing it (considering there was zero challenge involved). I don't think there was anything else that could be found in the way of collectibles, puzzles or whatever.

Sucumbio · Jan 30, 2010

Excellent read, Marc. thank you for this, ever since Underload -almost- streamed a play through of this game I've been interested in it, having never even heard of it before then.

A I also think FF7 is highly overrated, doing nothing right that 6 did, just adding more game mechanic complexity for the sake of it, and the grahpics were bad too. FF8 and 9 are MUCH better by comparison.

But yeah, so...

what I'm hearing is this game is Endless Ocean w/boss battles? (not hating on Endless Ocean)

Or maybe, a watered down MYST with boss battles??

The ending, so to speak, does it at least explain why the God asked you to kill the bosses? Or why Wander exists? Or why he found a dead chick? What becomes of the dead chick when she's resurrected? She go with you, hop along her merry way?? I assume the land is 'dead' because of colossi but ... yeah. So anyway yes I'd like you to ruin the game for me (with spoiler tags) so that I don't have to waste a day of my life on a lackluster game.

But if the game is so liked by many, then what is the appeal, in your opinion?

tocador · Jan 30, 2010

Sucumbio said:
Excellent read, Marc. thank you for this, ever since Underload -almost- streamed a play through of this game I've been interested in it, having never even heard of it before then.

A I also think FF7 is highly overrated, doing nothing right that 6 did, just adding more game mechanic complexity for the sake of it, and the grahpics were bad too. FF8 and 9 are MUCH better by comparison.

But yeah, so...

what I'm hearing is this game is Endless Ocean w/boss battles? (not hating on Endless Ocean)

Or maybe, a watered down MYST with boss battles??

The ending, so to speak, does it at least explain why the God asked you to kill the bosses? Or why Wander exists? Or why he found a dead chick? What becomes of the dead chick when she's resurrected? She go with you, hop along her merry way?? I assume the land is 'dead' because of colossi but ... yeah. So anyway yes I'd like you to ruin the game for me (with spoiler tags) so that I don't have to waste a day of my life on a lackluster game.

But if the game is so liked by many, then what is the appeal, in your opinion?

http://paper-crane06.xanga.com/521155661/shadow-of-the-colossus-story-and-ending/

Here. And to anyone that dont want spoilers, dont go to the web site, cause it contains the story and the ending. And no it aint a virus ><

etecoon · Jan 30, 2010

SotC was ok but I always thought that it was inferior to ICO, it does get overrated a lot for doing things that other games(such as ICO) have done better.

Sosuke · Jan 30, 2010

Marc said:
Yeah, I got some of those but stopped when I realised it was pointless. The game was already easy enough and there wasn't much satisfaction in doing it (considering there was zero challenge involved). I don't think there was anything else that could be found in the way of collectibles, puzzles or whatever.

They were necessary to climb the castle.

Kataefi · Jan 30, 2010

I really enjoyed SotC! I have to disagree with some points in the OP, but really it's open to interpretation. I think what sold me was the anonymity of everything, like a bland, empty canvas that you can paint personal thoughts onto. Definitely not a game for everyone.

Sucumbio · Jan 30, 2010

tocador said:
http://paper-crane06.xanga.com/521155661/shadow-of-the-colossus-story-and-ending/

Here. And to anyone that dont want spoilers, dont go to the web site, cause it contains the story and the ending. And no it aint a virus ><

Not a bad synopsis.... thanks!

Also, apparently there's a "Time attack" mode that you can earn special items in, which can add to reply value I guess.

Also this game is the prequel to Ico, another PS2 game I've not played...

And I found this super detailed story, though the authors of it agree a lot of it is pure speculation, they've based it upon interviews with other players, consensus drawn that kinda thing, and just some good ole fashioned common sense. But there's no doubt a LOT of interpretation to the story of this game.

The Dormin, far from being evil, were once worshipped as Gods. The people of
that land faced an entity so far above and beyond them, possessing power so
much beyond their scope of understanding and existing in a state so far beyond
their comprehension that this was the only possible relationship. Dormin forms
a dual god, light and dark, male and female, dead and alive, possessing power
over all the above in various ways. It is not to say that these times were
peaceful, however it is likely that the religion around Dormin was not an
especially violent one. Dormin themselves are enshrined in a great temple,
built to their dimensions, and around the land others are erected in worship
to them. Idols are built to paganistic design, each to worship a different
aspect of this divine entity. The status quo is set for centuries.

But eventually -- one may say inevitably -- this changes.

At some point long, long ago, a new religion rose. Perhaps it started as a new
thinker, perhaps it was someone angry at Dormin for some reason. These people
began a new religion, birthed a new god. A new, impersonal god that could not
be seen, could not be touched. More importantly, this was a god of light, and
the darkness and the death was its enemy, the sign of its displeasure and its
curses. Thus was the battle set.

The people were won over to this new religion. It preached of reward and of
punishment, of enemy and of victory. Dormin was the symbol of the enemy,
darkness and death. The people, once worshipful, rose up against Dormin, and
through the use of a magic sword first sundered then bound their former
god, a god no longer amenable to the beliefs of the people, a relic of a time
already gone. Binding Dormin’s soul to the idols made for its worship, each
corresponding to a different area of the land that Dormin itself had been lord
over, Dormin was left, trapped eternally, bound to the land itself and to the
shrines once erected in its honour. It is sealed away, abandoned by its people
in a land whose name would be lost, and it would be remembered only as a
place wherein none could tread: the Forbidden Land.

Dormin is left bound into the land, never able to truly come together again,
the idols that bind its soul rendered indestructible by Dormin’s own
immunity to dissolution. Dormin is left an angry god, infuriated by betrayal
and imprisonment, burning in the impotent desire for vengeance. Dormin was
condemend to an eternity of separation, a fate worse than the oblivion it
personified and controlled, yet Dormin remained fundamentally a god of the
land. In binding its divided essences to the various parts of the land itself,
the people had given Dormin the smallest hint of power, provided a minor chink
in their own enchantment. Dormin’s fractured soul permeated the land, and
those fragments began to fuse with the land itself, to those places which they
were bound. In doing so, they created secondary, more fragile prisons, prisons
that personified the elements of Dormin’s own soul that were bound to the
land; prisons that could, theoretically, be broken. The Colossi were born.

The spell that divided the Dormin into 16 segments -- binding each piece to
one of the Dormin's own idols, each of these idols in turn themselves bound to
an aspect of the land -- was flawed in its function, ineffecient to the
purpose for which it had been cast. In binding the idols to both the divided
essences of Dormin and different parts of the land itself, the betrayers had
left a loophole that may spell their own doom: when the divided essences of
Dormin infused themselves into parts of the land to which they were bound,
they confused that enchantment which left the Dormin's power inert and
unrealized.

With that which was bound becoming one with that which it was bound to, should
the subsequent creations be destroyed, so too would fall those enchanted
objects of which the Colossi served as manifestations: the idols, those
conduits through which the spell that imprisoned the essences of the Dormin
was held in place.

Time passes...

Someone from outside enters the Forbidden Land. Maybe they want to see their
old gods, or perhaps they want to make sure the spell cast to bind their old
gods is doing its work, or maybe they're just curious; who knows? What they
find, however, are the idols changed, whether they discover the Colossi
roaming those areas to which the idols correspond or not. Even if they know
nothing of the Colossi or their significance, the significance of what has
taken place is realized: if the idols are destroyed, Dormin will be freed,
and in Dormin being deathless, they will inevitably reform.

Dormin’s memory is thus retained as a legend, its power becoming a cautionary
tale, a parable perhaps. The Forbidden Land should not be trespassed upon, for
it is forbidden. The idols should never fall, because they are in the
Forbidden Land. None would seek to enter the Forbidden Land and destroy the
idols, lest they should wish to revive the dead, and it is now accepted as the
way of mortals that the dead should never return to life. None would question
this, and, thus, it should never be feared that the Dormin may arise again.
None would dare to defy the laws of the mortal world and return the dead to
life. None would save one.

The opportunity for which the Dormin long await comes. One whose name history
has now forgotten journeys to their land to ask that they beqeath unto him a
boon of the old ways, to exert their dominion over that which mortal man alone
has no providence over: to bring back the soul of one who was dead.

Wanda, who will one day be The Wanderer, is born. He believes in God totally,
is raised in the religion, and in his village he becomes a templar, a direct
servant of Lord Emon, the village priest or Shaman. He is a warrior, trained
to fight on horseback from birth, and has grown up with a horse of his own,
named "Agro," a horse that grows too big for his small boned rider, and yet
the bond between the two makes separation a non-issue. It cannot be done.
Wanda adapts to his over-sized mount, and learns to cope.

Then one day, during a sacrifice like any other, Wanda’s faith is called into
question. Told to sacrifice a girl who possesses a cursed fate, he is
presented with a woman unlike any other. Mono, beautiful and perfect, utterly
without flaw. He is struck suddenly with how unfair, how cruel and uncaring
his act is. He performs the deed, and the sacrifice. He is left guilt-ridden,
tormented by his act. He thinks back to the words of Emon, to the tales and
parables that make up his faith. He remembers a sword that sealed a creature
with power over death, and he remembers the land in which it is sealed. And
thus, he has his plan.

He travels to the Forbidden Land, to the land of Dormin, and therein he finds
the Shrine of Worship, the one untarnished relic of a civilisation once built
on the worship of an undying yet living God. There he encounters Dormin. He
puts forth his supplication, and is accepted. Dormin has its chance, for it
sees the sword that once sealed it, and recognises that this might well have
the power to destroy its secondary prisons, and give it a chance to escape
into the world once more. Whether out of pity, or out of duty, or out of mere
inclination, Dormin gives this supplicant one chance to turn back. When he
does not, Dormin lays out his path. The stones are rolling, and Dormin sees
its chance for freedom.

Wanda systematically kills the Colossi. He hears Mono’s voice, he sees an
image of her shrouded in darkness, sitting up on the altar, and he sees
himself beginning to change, to degrade as Dormin’s essence fills him. He
knows now what is happening, but it doesn’t matter. Mono’s voice tells him all
he needs to know. Dormin will hold up their end of the bargain. Beyond that,
nothing matters. The only thing that he cares about now is a chance to atone
for what he’s done, and a chance to apologise to her for his actions.

Wanda seeks out the final Colossi, with Dormin’s words of warning in his ears.
Emon is on his way to stop the spell, to stop the fall of the idols. Wanda is
finally filled with the last essence of Dormin with the death of the last
Colossus, and the loss of his beloved horse. He has sacrificed everything he
has, and he’s done everything he can. All that remains, is the resolution.

Emon sees the last idol fall, the impossible occur. He says a catechism over
the defiled body of Mono, a prayer for the dead. Then he sees the arrival once
again, for the final time, of The Wanderer, the templar that betrayed him and
undid the seal upon their religion’s ancient enemy. He is horrified that one
he knew, and trusted, betrayed him so heavily. He rambles, coming up with
reasons for The Wanderer’s death, until eventually, with Wanda staggering
towards the altar, he simply orders one of his men to quickly kill him. Wanda
is shot in the leg, and he looks up with whitened eyes into those of the man
who ends his life. Desperate to see Mono live again, he nonetheless staggers
to his feet, spraying black blood, and staggers to the altar. But his
strength fails him, and he collapses after ripping free the sword. Filled
utterly with Dormin’s essence, he is quickly reduced to a shadow like the
others. With a difference...

The Dormin take control of Wanda’s body. In him, their temporary avatar, they
are united, and their power is released in part into the world. They declare
their freedom, while Emon in horror recoils. However, Emon’s men have in luck
alone secured their victory. Dormin is lame, as Wanda is lame, unable to
properly move the leg that the arrow struck. And so Emon and his men easily
make their escape, and cast a temporary seal upon the entire shrine of
worship. A spell that will once more discorporate Dormin... for a while.

Though Dormin are pulled from Wanda, there is too much left, and Wanda himself
is now a dead man walking. He no longer belongs in this world, and the sealing
spell recognises him as part of Dormin. Though he struggles vainly to see Mono
again, he cannot. He is inexorably pulled into the pool of light, and his
struggle to see her live again ends unfulfilled. Yet Mono awakes nonetheless,
for Dormin stick by their word, and she awakes in an unfamiliar place, unsure
of what has happened or why she lives again. However she hears and sees a lame
horse, an animal she does not recognise, injured in some battle. She follows
it for lack of options, and comes upon the strangest thing: Dormin’s last gift
to Wanda, a thanks for their brief freedom and the knowledge that they will
rise again. A second life. Mono ascends with Agro to a secret garden, there to
live out her existence, to bear the children of the very man who once killed
her in another life, a man who now bears horns from the time when Dormin
inhabited his body.

Wanda’s descendents leave the Forbidden Land, and mingle with society in some
fashion. The curse of the horned children begins. Each of these children bears
within a tiny fragment of Dormin’s power, a fragment that an ancient Queen
possessed of her own dark fury recognises, and begins to gather. She hopes to
use Dormin’s power over death to reincarnate herself in the form of her own
daughter, to extend her life. She gathers the boys, killing them and releasing
the Dormin energy inside. In the end, it is one of these that kills her. But
that is a story for another time.

Browny · Jan 30, 2010

Kataefi said:
I really enjoyed SotC! I have to disagree with some points in the OP, but really it's open to interpretation. I think what sold me was the anonymity of everything, like a bland, empty canvas that you can paint personal thoughts onto. Definitely not a game for everyone.

Question arises if a game that comes out this decade which doesnt have the whole retro excuse for being technically bad, yet has a similar empty overworld and 'empty canvas' environment, would it draw criticism for this?

El Nino · Jan 30, 2010

Marc said:
a conversation under the starry sky or curling up in an inn is. That’s why events like that are RPG staples, because they are pleasant breaks.

Yeah, but a lot of those conversations are cliched and predictable, as are those settings.

I must have read too many fantasy and SF adventure novels when I was a kid. I can easily pick out commonly used archetypes and staples, which is why I tend to tune out most of the dialogue in fantasy RPGs. I can predict where it's going; I can predict what it's trying to tell me about the characters.

And I think: "I get it I get it; he has daddy issues; she is in love with him but won't admit it; can we go back to killing things?"

Edit: Formula, that's the word I was looking for. I read too many fantasy books as a kid, and so it's always way too obvious when something is following "the formula". Books--they ruin things. Maybe I should not have read so much.

Moments of silence make an impact when used sparingly.

I think it's the opposite for me. Moments of explosive violence (or simple talking) make a bigger impression on me when used sparingly.

maybe that just means you need to look at old school games more.

Like I said in a previous post, nothing beats Tetris.

SotC gives you too little to work with, which is either lazy or pretentious as ****.

It gave me enough to work with, but it looks like it didn't do the same for you. So, I guess we just have different tastes, but that is to be expected.

Edit2: Moar thoughts. Because now I'm in "over-analyzing" mode.

One of the major appealing aspects of Shadow, I think, is how the puzzles are blended into the secondary world. The temples in LoZ are very obviously puzzles. Even within the context of the world, there is no reason why there would be treasure chests containing keys at various places in a dungeon, hidden behind locked doors accessible by a switch that sits on a platform that you have to use a hookshot to get to. When there's a giant block protruding from the ground that looks like a switch, chances are that it's a switch, and it makes little sense that the creators of the temple would have a reason for building something like that...unless they wanted to test the puzzle-solving skills of "the chosen one." Within the context of the world, it makes so sense.

I am a LoZ fan, which is why Shadow surprised me. The world did not seem as if it were "constructed" for this guy to explore and figure out. He has to make his own path by climbing over structures that aren't meant for climbing. The places he has to go don't look like they were designed as puzzles for him to solve; they look like they were built for other purposes that had nothing to do with him; the entire world seems this way.

So I think some who like this game like it for the way the designers were able to almost seamlessly blend game aspects into a secondary world. There weren't any big shiny switches to step on, no treasure chests that are just inexplicably there for your convenience. The secondary world was one of the most fully realized game worlds I've seen, simply because of how the designers masked the fact that you were playing a game.

Yeah, just an opinion. But this thread got me thinking about a game I haven't thought about in a while.

Red Arremer · Jan 31, 2010

SauceKay said:
They were necessary to climb the castle.

And both destinations on top of the castle are just as empty and have no purpose other than being there.
If there at least would've been a hidden boss or some goodie or anything else that would give you the feeling of accomplishment. You just have a sight of the nice landscape, a gate you can't go through and a garden. Wow, that sure is satisfying!

finalark · Jan 31, 2010

Marc said:
Heh, I am considering doing a FFVII review.

OMGZ FINALZ PANTASZY 7 iz teh beast game evarrrrr!#!!Q!!!1q

But seriously, I wrote a review on FF7 a while back. The game's story and characters were mediocre, there were a number of gameplay mechanics that annoyed me. But I did like the core gameplay. Overall, FF7 was just an average JRPG that is only remembered as being awesome because of nostalgia and the initial wow factor of a 3D Final Fantasy.

Anyway, I do disagree on what you have to say about SotC. First of all, LoZ:TP =/= SotC. Secound of all, I kind of liked the barren landscape. I found that it game a feeling of isolation, although it wouldn't have killed them to throw in a few things for me to look at aside from the occasional ruins and water falls. I did really enjoy the battles with the collosi, I like how each one was a puzzle that you had to figure out before you could beat it. However, I can understand not liking SotC. It isn't a game for everyone, while some may find the barren landscape atmospheric others may find it lazy, for example.

SotC is still overrated.

Marc · Jan 31, 2010

Sucumbio said:
The ending, so to speak, does it at least explain why the God asked you to kill the bosses? Or why Wander exists? Or why he found a dead chick? What becomes of the dead chick when she's resurrected? She go with you, hop along her merry way?? I assume the land is 'dead' because of colossi but ... yeah. So anyway yes I'd like you to ruin the game for me (with spoiler tags) so that I don't have to waste a day of my life on a lackluster game.

But if the game is so liked by many, then what is the appeal, in your opinion?

I think the story has been covered by now in this topic.

As stated before, most of it is from speculation or sources outside of the actual game.

The gist of the ending is that you did a bad thing. *gasp* Who'd have thought!?

The appeal is its novelty (boss battles only in a fairly unique way), its atmosphere (debatable) and being a sleeper hit. People feel good when they like something that isn't as known or mainstream.

DJBrowny said:
Question arises if a game that comes out this decade which doesnt have the whole retro excuse for being technically bad, yet has a similar empty overworld and 'empty canvas' environment, would it draw criticism for this?

Most likely, considering it's not original anymore. I do think it depends on how it is picked up by media (SotC was rated ridiculously positive by game press) and the initial fanbase, who in this case found a niche game while being "justified" for liking it because of the aforementioned media response. In fact, in other genres games already take heat for being bland (shooters, JRPGs).

El Nino said:
Edit: Formula, that's the word I was looking for. I read too many fantasy books as a kid, and so it's always way too obvious when something is following "the formula". Books--they ruin things. Maybe I should not have read so much.

I read 16 books a week as a kid (true story) and I embrace cliches. Maybe because life is cliche when it comes down to it and cliches are pretty much giant truths.

About puzzles seemingly blending in... that'd be commendable if not for the fact that there is very little content. The environment not feeling like a "planned" environment is done in a far better way in sandbox games like GTA and Assassin's Creed, where you actually have **** to do. ;p

.joel said:
And both destinations on top of the castle are just as empty and have no purpose other than being there.
If there at least would've been a hidden boss or some goodie or anything else that would give you the feeling of accomplishment. You just have a sight of the nice landscape, a gate you can't go through and a garden. Wow, that sure is satisfying!

+rep

El Nino · Jan 31, 2010

Marc said:
I read 16 books a week as a kid (true story)

I was never that fast. I think I was at one book every two or three weeks. As an adult now, it's more like three or four books a year.

and I embrace cliches.

How do you do it? Isn't that like embracing a venereal disease? (One that you are, apparently, very proud of having.)

Maybe because life is cliche when it comes down to it and cliches are pretty much giant truths.

I don't see cliches as being giant truths. They may be what is easier to sell to a large audience as truth, but that is not to be confused with the actual thing.

GTA and Assassin's Creed, where you actually have **** to do. ;p

GTA was fun, but I've already forgotten much of it. Have not played Assassin's Creed. One of my friends is, like, in love with it, but my brother thought the way the story ended was lame.

I would buy more games if they were shorter, in all honesty. 8 hours of gameplay is just right for me. But then, I realize I'm not the target audience. I'm not a teenager, and I can't afford to spend entire days locked up in a room level grinding. How I weep for my lost youth.

JesiahTEG · Jan 31, 2010

I disagree completely Marc. I thought we had similar tastes in games, both of us being Metal Gear Fanatics and all. :-P

In all honesty though, I think overrated is the farthest thing from the truth.

The game does a lot of things unbelievably well, and they are aspects that almost no games have replicated thus far. For example, the usage of various gameplay elements to elicit emotional responses from the players. The concept is very simple: Make your way through the land and kill giant creatures.

The way Fumito Ueda specifically chose to not include monsters in the game as a way to add to the "lone hero feel" is brilliant among other design elements.

If we want to go into further detail and debate I'd love to just cuz I love the game so **** much. But, basically I think the direction he went with the game, in detailing the environments, characters, and creatures in that way...The way where you "feel" as oppose to observe and engage...Is just unbelievable. I definitely think overrated is just wrong.

If anything, I feel SOTC even if it's not a top 5 game of all time, is a game absolutely necessary to play to true gamers just because of how different and original it is. It really does set a standard.

#HBC | Acrostic · Jan 31, 2010

I tend to generally treat all review columns, especially "top ten lists" with a grain of salt. I personally feel that certain games are placed on the list in order to "balance" the list out from "mainstream" contenders. Personally speaking I can't believe they placed FF X at #3 on the list. I don't believe that the game deserves that much merit for being over-glorified eye candy with a Star Wars ending. Regardless, I find "minimalist" to be an interesting word used to describe the type of games that Mr. Ueda has created. One wouldn't certainly describe the bosses as being "minimalist" or the environment as being "minimalist" either. If a game is to be praised as being "minimalist" then it insinuates that it gets rid of excessive waste that deters people from getting involved in the game.

Perhaps people are getting sick of overused brand names used by Nintendo and Square Soft. Insisting on putting Cid into every game as a gimmick begins to wear thin after a decade or two. Storyline and plot progression have also appeared to have been thrown out the window since IX. I don't want to offer harsh criticism on the Zelda series since I only played Ocarina and Majora's Mask. So I'll leave that up to you guys to make the judgment call.

As far as most of these games go, it is ironic that the game is primarily linear, but has an expansive free to explore environment. Shadow of the Colossus, much like most RPG games is linear in the sense that killing a boss or accomplishing an event triggers another set of sequential events that must be followed in order. In order to compensate, most games present an expansive landscape or intimidating bosses. Shadow of the Colossus doesn't reinvent the wheel. It has the same cliches as previously stated, but spares itself from telling a poorly written story.

Personally I feel that it raises a judgment bar on the quality of games for the PS 2 era. Were the stories written for gaming consoles so piss poor that we decided it was better to purchase a game that suppressed the story and left it in the background? Or should stories exist in the background as it appears that most games are being dominated by eye-candy and an engaging AI. Again there is a lot of subjective judgment that goes into things like this but I missed the days where it felt like I was rewarded with an interesting story rather than having it being chocked and strangled by implausibility, idiocity, and inconsistency.

Browny · Jan 31, 2010

So I never actually played this game, but how would people say the boss fights stack up to the likes of metroid prime (all 3 games)?

Thardus being my prime (lolpun) example. The games were from the same era so you can compare the two. its just that MP1 is often put as one of the greatest games of all time and the boss battles being a major component there, not the mention all the rest of the game. does SotC's boss fights really outweigh all the boss fights in MP games, and the rest put together?

#HBC | Acrostic · Jan 31, 2010

DJBrowny said:
So I never actually played this game, but how would people say the boss fights stack up to the likes of metroid prime (all 3 games)?

Thardus being my prime (lolpun) example. The games were from the same era so you can compare the two. its just that MP1 is often put as one of the greatest games of all time and the boss battles being a major component there, not the mention all the rest of the game. does SotC's boss fights really outweigh all the boss fights in MP games, and the rest put together?

In Shadow you actually climb on top of the bosses in order to kill them. They have a weak spot which is indicated by a glowing blue symbol where you take a sword and go "stab, stab, stab." After awhile you have to find a spot to rest because your stamina (stabbity power) begins to decline and if you get too tired, then you will get thrown off and have to climb all the way on top of the boss all over again. Certain bosses contain a bit of a mix up. For example, in the first set of bosses both wield sword-like weapons. Except with the second boss you actually climb up his sword in order to find his blue spots and go "stab, stab, stab." When you're not fighting colossus you can ride aimlessly around with your horse, find power-ups, and discover the meaning of life.

El Nino · Jan 31, 2010

Acrostic said:
It has the same cliches as previously stated, but spares itself from telling a poorly written story.

I find that if you whittle away a lot of the excesses to the "heroic tale," you find yourself at a foundation. I think it's the same foundation that sometimes transcends culture and time. It's been the same story since stories were told around the prehistoric campfire.

That is not what I tend to refer to when I say "cliche." A cliche is the dressing around it, and some dressings are more commonly used than others.

A story that is a "heroic tale" strikes a chord with me the closer it gets to that foundation without throwing on more dressing to convince the audience that it is different, while at the same time, providing an experience that is memorable.

Again there is a lot of subjective judgment that goes into things like this but I missed the days where it felt like I was rewarded with an interesting story rather than having it being chocked and strangled by implausibility, idiocity, and inconsistency.

I miss the days when the objective was about jumping on evil mushrooms and rescuing a princess from a turtle-dinosaur thing, but the princess was always in another castle.

I guess some people really do want good stories with their games, but I tend to look for my stories elsewhere. Games for me were always about pushing buttons to change a sequence of flashing pixels. (It should be noted that I am also easily entertained by bright shiny objects, however.)

For the future of gaming, who knows? My friend working in the industry has a film degree, and he definitely wants to use cinematic elements in game development. So, we'll see.

Chill · Jan 31, 2010

Haha, I saw the title and I knew this would be from Marc.

El Nino, just to touch on something you said earlier about Agro. She actually does have a bit of her own personality. Ueda said that he didn't want Agro to respond to your commands %100 of the time. To paraphrase what he said 'Argo isn't a car. You can't just say turn left and she'll turn left. So we tried to balance how often she'll listen to you to avoid making it frustrating'. I think the end result pays off. Compare riding Agro to Epona. With Epona you feel like you're riding a log.

Marc · Jan 31, 2010

El Nino said:
How do you do it? Isn't that like embracing a venereal disease? (One that you are, apparently, very proud of having.)

Playing linguistic games with the European, eh? ;o

I don't see cliches as being giant truths. They may be what is easier to sell to a large audience as truth, but that is not to be confused with the actual thing.

I've found that many things in my life were very cliche, which might be why I am more tolerant of cliches. Cliches are cliches because they are real.

JesiahTEG said:
I disagree completely Marc. I thought we had similar tastes in games, both of us being Metal Gear Fanatics and all. :-P

SotC is pretty much the complete opposite of MGS. =P

Acrostic said:
Personally I feel that it raises a judgment bar on the quality of games for the PS 2 era. Were the stories written for gaming consoles so piss poor that we decided it was better to purchase a game that suppressed the story and left it in the background? Or should stories exist in the background as it appears that most games are being dominated by eye-candy and an engaging AI. Again there is a lot of subjective judgment that goes into things like this but I missed the days where it felt like I was rewarded with an interesting story rather than having it being chocked and strangled by implausibility, idiocity, and inconsistency.

It depends on what the game is trying to accomplish. A game like God of War doesn't need a complex story to keep you entertained, but for an RPG or something as cutscene heavy as MGS it's a critical feature. Regardless, I think the PS2 had plenty of games with a satisfying story. I liked your post btw.

etecoon · Jan 31, 2010

The game does a lot of things unbelievably well, and they are aspects that almost no games have replicated thus far. For example, the usage of various gameplay elements to elicit emotional responses from the players. The concept is very simple: Make your way through the land and kill giant creatures

while it is true that this is something that SotC does well that is pretty unique, ICO did the same thing, better IMO. SotC gets so much credit for being innovative on things that were done in its predecessor

Marc · Jan 31, 2010

Chill said:
Haha, I saw the title and I knew this would be from Marc.

:3

El Nino, just to touch on something you said earlier about Agro. She actually does have a bit of her own personality. Ueda said that he didn't want Agro to respond to your commands %100 of the time. To paraphrase what he said 'Argo isn't a car. You can't just say turn left and she'll turn left. So we tried to balance how often she'll listen to you to avoid making it frustrating'. I think the end result pays off. Compare riding Agro to Epona. With Epona you feel like you're riding a log.

I've been thinking about this, and I think some things are better left un"realistic". You know how in survival horror games your character gets tired if you run a lot and slows down, only to be at full speed again after standing still for 2 seconds? Not only is it a nuisance and ultimately not realistic at all, being in control contributes to being immersed. Games aren't at a level where they seem like real life (yet) and I don't think I ever want them to be, especially not by adding small elements of frustration. I've ridden a horse in real life with more ease than I handled Agro. It's like tripping in Brawl, just an unnecessary nuisance.

El Nino · Jan 31, 2010

Chill said:
El Nino, just to touch on something you said earlier about Agro. She actually does have a bit of her own personality. Ueda said that he didn't want Agro to respond to your commands %100 of the time. To paraphrase what he said 'Argo isn't a car. You can't just say turn left and she'll turn left. So we tried to balance how often she'll listen to you to avoid making it frustrating'. I think the end result pays off. Compare riding Agro to Epona. With Epona you feel like you're riding a log.

Okay, that makes sense. The difference between Epona and Agro was a bit like going from F-Zero to Gran Turismo in terms of vehicles, for me. In F-Zero, I only paid attention to the tracks; the cars had a few defining characteristics, but they were just variations of the same model. With Gran Turismo, I think I ran clear off the track on the first turn when I tried it the first time.

It was an interesting touch, in my opinion. Mostly because there are only two characters throughout most of the game (minus the colossi), and the horse did become a companion. You can't talk to horses (unless you're wolf Link), so a horse's personality would come through in the riding.

Edit: I also remember Agro trying to take on a Colossus once when Wander got knocked down.

Marc said:
I've been thinking about this, and I think some things are better left un"realistic". You know how in survival horror games your character gets tired if you run a lot and slows down, only to be at full speed again after standing still for 2 seconds? Not only is it a nuisance and ultimately not realistic at all, being in control contributes to being immersed.

I think the point of survival horror is that you are NOT in control, not completely. If you were completely in control and your character just kicked a lot of ***, it'd be Devil May Cry, which would be an action game with horror elements. Having a character who sucks at fighting, who can't run as fast or as long, adds fear to the experience.

I could shoot zombies with a machine gun all day. It's fun. Just not scary. But make it a plank of wood with a nail in it...that's not easy and just a bit frightening.

I've ridden a horse in real life with more ease than I handled Agro. It's like tripping in Brawl, just an unnecessary nuisance.

Yes, tripping in Brawl is annoying. But I figured out how to handle Agro eventually. At least there is consistency to it, as opposed to the tripping.

Playing linguistic games with the European, eh? ;o

How American am I that I didn't even realize I was doing that? >_<

#HBC | Acrostic · Feb 1, 2010

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On topic
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To reiterate I feel that the only reason why Shadow of the Colossus remains a novel game is only because of poor story management on the part of game franchise producers. Analyzing the game from a a recent perspective, it is a sign that games being produced are increasingly being sold for "eye candy" over unique characterization and "attractive game play" over plausibility. Then again it's really too late to address this as companies like Squaresoft have decided to throw away plot with the success of X only to be compounded with games like Bayonetta that have decided to make a mockery out of the whole process.

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Offtopic
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El Nino said:
I find that if you whittle away a lot of the excesses to the "heroic tale," you find yourself at a foundation. I think it's the same foundation that sometimes transcends culture and time. It's been the same story since stories were told around the prehistoric campfire.

Games don't necessarily have to centered on the hero. They could be about the villain and offer original gameplay from this perspective. But switching the perspective would require creativity and a lot of risk that many game producers simply do not want to take. Even games like Destroy All Alians and Grand Theft Auto don't completely villify their main characters. If you observe how much controversy was generated over the airport stage in Call of Duty MW 2 perhaps our society isn't accustomed to accepting the fact that games can have multiple dimensions besides serving as a moral vehicle for kids who are not supposed to be playing these games in the first place.

ElNino said:
That is not what I tend to refer to when I say "cliche." A cliche is the dressing around it, and some dressings are more commonly used than others.

I used "cliche" under my own context. I don't quite understand your analogy or agree with their being a "universal foundation" for the "heroic tale" and having "cliches" be "dressing" so I will use "" markings to verify that there is a discrepancy in how people perceive the meaning of the word "cliche." Even though I'm just going by the standard dictionary terminology.

ElNino said:
A story that is a "heroic tale" strikes a chord with me the closer it gets to that foundation without throwing on more dressing to convince the audience that it is different, while at the same time, providing an experience that is memorable.

Again I'm not sure what the "heroic tale" exactly is. It sounds like any game that you like will become the "heroic tale" that has been "universally" accepted which simply sounds like a case of "subjective bias".

I like games that relate to my life. I've played this one game four times and never get tired of it, simply because the characters appeal to a part of me that hasn't changed over the years. In retrospect, the characters attempt to play stereotypical "roles" as "loyal soldier" "shifty thief" and "royal princess" but they all fail at keeping up their intended appearances and slowly begin to understand that there is more to themselves and the world at large than playing generic "roles." Even though the character development is cliched for all the characters in the sense that their personalities retain a 25-25-25-25 mix of 1/4 original personality, intermingled personality, group personality, and narrative purpose, it was the only game I've played that really bothered with character development over the course of the story.

In my opinion, "dressings" are only "cliched" if they are done poorly. The idea that there is a "universal foundation" that is being reused sounds like it's a cliche. And I don't understand how anyone could look forward to a universally repeating cliche.

ElNino said:
I guess some people really do want good stories with their games, but I tend to look for my stories elsewhere. Games for me were always about pushing buttons to change a sequence of flashing pixels. (It should be noted that I am also easily entertained by bright shiny objects, however.)

For the future of gaming, who knows? My friend working in the industry has a film degree, and he definitely wants to use cinematic elements in game development. So, we'll see.

I don't want need good stories to make me happy at the fact that I just wasted my money buying a game that was intended to sell me a "story" game. I just need to play a game that does not have a piss poor story that should have never been released, period. The short stories I wrote in middle school have better plot lines and overall structure than the ones present in most standard fare "story" games. As wonderful as it is for your friend, I don't want film developers to make videogames. I want novelists and not ones that are as half-***** as JK Rowling. But more along the lines of Stephen King... maybe.
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