Character Discussion: King Dedede

Advantages:

Disadvantages:

Summary:




Aerial Game:

Ground Game:

Approach:

Camping Game:

Edge Game:

Surviving:

Killing:




Stage Striking:

Stage Banning:

Counterpicks:




Video Links:

Lol that picture is great. I'll repost what has been said earlier here to start discussion. I'll post my thoughts later.

Donkey Bong said:

the matchup is different when infinite is banned, but even so, D3 is still a hard counter for DK

he can still chaingrab you across the stage for the easiest 40% in the game. after that, you're forced offstage, which means you'll have to be wary of getting gimped. D3 has a very effective offstage game.

the only slightly safe (and still pretty **** unsafe, honestly) moves DK has in the matchup are upb, downb, bair (retreating, or you'll get shieldgrabbed unless precisely spaced). dont ever use any tilt against D3. you will get grabbed.

100-0 with infi
70-30 without

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Micaelis said:

Eh, I don't know about all that. I play the match-up on a weekly basis against a very very good DDD and I think w/o the infinite the MU is probably 6-4 or 65-35 in DDD's favor.

He severely limits our move list but with what we've got we can still kill him and relatively early which he doesn't like. But the match-up really depends on the person's control of their character and how well they know the match-up. I tool scrub DDD's all the time (3-stocked one yesterday with only like 26% taken). But when they know the MU and how to work it, it's definitely something close to 6-4 if not worse.

In short, in advanced competitive play, he's a brick wall that DK can only punch through if it has holey walls or a bad foundation, sorry to say.

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Advantages:

DownB is good against his grab, you have a good chance of spiking him if you manage to get him offstage.

Disadvantages:

Chaingrab/infinite


Aerial Game:

Bair, Uair, etc... just keep him in the air so he can't grab you... watch out for his aerials though especially his bair. If he wants to land maybe you can hit him with a downB.

Ground Game:

DownB, grabs... maybe grounded upB if his shield isn't full.

Approach:

DON'T approach. CAMP the **** out of him.

If you have to approach, because he's in the lead, and the infinite is legal you have to use downB to get him in the air and bair him... if the infinite isn't allowed you can try to do something else (grab, spaced bairs, whatever...), because it isn't as risky...

Camping Game:

If the infinite is legal or you just want to be really safe against the chaingrab stay on platforms and avoid the waddles and jump away from D3. When he jumps you can try to attack him since he can't grab you there. Dedede is really slow so you won't have a too hard time avoiding him...

Surviving:

Watch out for utilt... it's his best killing move, but if you're careful not to get hit with it he actually has trouble KOing.

If the infinite is legal don't get grabbed obviously... always stay in the air/if you're on the ground you can do downB, but don't stop, because he could predict it and grab you... only stop when he can't punish you with a grab.
If you feel lucky you can try to grab him before he grabs you, but he has longer grabrange and a much better spot dodge so the odds are against you... a grab is nice against D3, because it's all about getting him into the air.

Killing:

Dedede lives really long... the longest if he's hit upwards, but to the sides he won't survive that long. So DK punch, Fsmash maybe Dsmash/bair are good.

If you manage to grab Dedede cargo dtoss him offstage.

If he's offstage he's really limited and you have to try to gimp him. It's where the infinite/chaingrab doesn't work and you're at a big advantage since he's SOO slow at moving right/left in the air. He can recover from really low so that you can't try to spike him, but then he has to use upB (which you can grab on the way up), most would probably try to go for the ledge though so be ready to edgehog him...

Watch out for his Dededecide.

Not sure about bair edgeguard... I think it's always better to just go for the spike... all he can do is upB early, airdodge (won't help much, he'd have to fall down with the airdodge to be safe, but then he has to recover from below...)... if he's too high for spikes fair, bair are good...


Stage Striking:

FD sux, BF isn't that bad, but SV is the best imo.
If the infinite is legal and Lylat Cruise is a starter it'd be the best...

Stage Banning:

FD obviously... (maybe have a secondary like Diddy/Falco/ICs for FD)

Counterpicks:

Brinstar, Lylat Crise, maybe Yoshis...
If the infinite is banned most stages should be good enough (SV, BF, ....)

you lose. Good day sir

Unless CG is banned...this match-up is unwinnable. [pickanothercharplz]

But if the CG is banned, or at least limited, I say this is around 7-3 with 6-4 being the highest...and both being in DDD's favor still.

Just about anything we do can get us grabbed, so this match-up will be a lot of running away and trying to bait failed grabs. If we get him in the air we're in a slightly better position, only because he can't grab us, but never underestimate DDD's air game.

This is easily the hardest match-up for a DK to play since you will be playing little to no offense the entire game. This match-up is basically trying to squeeze out every little percent of damage you can and maybe squeeze in a kill before you get grabbed.

I've played a few scrub DDD's and a few good ones...and can say that the DDD's skill plays a huge role in whether this match is omgEASY, difficult, and IMPOSSIBLE.

Retreating Bairs and DownB are your best friends in this match-up IMO.

scrub D3's are the easiest thing in the world to win against. I played one, and he felt sorry cause he mained D3 and i main DK. I 3 stocked him. Basically a scrub D3 always tries to grab. ALWAYS. down b is your best friend. also, b air is amazing if spaced. If he shields it, (not perfect shield), and he remains shielded for a predicted second b air, side b him. Broken shield. GG stock. Against a good D3, its not gonna be fun. I played Atomsk and got completly wrecked. Wasn't fun at all.

D3s Grab > everything. You cp this match-up. A half-breathing D3 worth his salt will be grabbing everything you do, its even worse if your **** gets perfect-shielded.

In a tournament setting, unless D3 is braindead, please CP a secondary. This is a much worse matchup than MK.

post by AK pretty much sums it up.

Te-Jay said:

scrub D3's are the easiest thing in the world to win against. I played one, and he felt sorry cause he mained D3 and i main DK. I 3 stocked him. Basically a scrub D3 always tries to grab. ALWAYS. down b is your best friend. also, b air is amazing if spaced. If he shields it, (not perfect shield), and he remains shielded for a predicted second b air, side b him. Broken shield. GG stock.

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I really agree with that !
Lots of D3 mainer I fought don't even know the details about the DK vs D3 Match-up, they just think that Chaingrab is the key (or at least, in France/Europe).

I like playing against D3 on Yoshi's Island and Final Destination (I really hate on Battlefield because of the plateform with the short lenght of the stage, he can kind of camp under a plateform and our approach is really bad).

On FD, I "camp" against D3s, I prefer when he approaches (his Side B doesn't bother and you can refresh your moves on lol).
So what about his approaches ?
-He will probably jump and Bair, that's now that you strike with yours and your spacing :D.
-Ftilt ? You can punish if you power shield it, and send DDD offstage to gimp him.
-Dash Grab D: ... -> Just Jump and run away lol

So, I agree with Luigi Player and Tujex. And I think DK can win if he only tries to punish the D3's mistakes. The DK must be patient, of course...

And If I keep DK, I CP D3 on Rainbow Cruise.
DK in the Air >> D3 in the Air.

You can't be patient against DDD because hes just going to camp you with waddle dees lol. I like when people CP and choose DDD and they only know how to do the chaingrab. Seriously though this is probably the worst matchup in the game aside from Bowser vs DDD. Just be gay and CP MK or Falco on him. 0-100 DDD against DDD mains or secondaries.

IC's vs Ganon=worst matchup in game

but in all honesty, waddle dees are a crap camp projectile. Power shield one if he throws it close enough to you, then dash grab to punish. he has a massive amount of cool down lag on the waddle throw, enough to punish with something.

I agree. Waddle Dee's are crap, and can be easily dodged or swatted away. Only thing you gotta worry about Gordo's and either way they can be PS'd jjust like another Waddle Dee or Doo.

Waddle Dee, Doo, or Gordo can be beat with bair.

I canceled out the hitboxes on a gordo with bair twice, not sure if bair has to be fresh to cancel it out or not.

I think it has to be fresh to do so, or mildly fresh....

I'll do some research on that and find out....if someone doesn't already know...*shifty eyes*

With the infinite, there's absolutely no hope, absolutely none. Without it, there is. 35:65, a **** matchup still, but no, not unwinnable.


Advantages: Superior range, mobility, KO power, survivability, **** CPs.

Disadvantages: Damaging chaingrab that sends you offstage, grab range when the grab is so deadly, equally **** CPs.

Summary: I'll keep it short. You can space bairs against D3's grab. It's not that hard. Mix in a dash of downB because it can annoy him. In the air, you win, so go at him with bair. Play really, really patiently. Jumping in head-first like you may be accustomed to will just get you *****. If he's offstage, gimp with bair, if he ever has to use up B, just hit him away at the peak of the jump or on the way down. Keep him offstage without his jumps and you may not get a gimp but you will get a bunch of damage.



Aerial Game: You win. His bair is good, but yours is better and your aerial acceleration and speed are way better, so space bairs on him.

Ground Game: You still win. DownB and ftilt are way better than his ftilt and dtilt. if he ftilts, you can shield and dtilt, ftilt or shieldgrab if you dashed in.

Approach: Don't if you don't have to. PS his projectile, it's easy. If you do have to..Well, merlin help you, dawg. You COULD use up B and wear his shield down, but you better hit it with all of the hits.

Camping Game: He will camp in his shield and you won't like it. You will camp with bair.

Edge Game: His isn't that great vs you but he can bair your up B for a solid gimp. Beware. Use bair to gimp him.

Surviving: He will kill with utilt, stay to his side and he may have trouble. He can dtilt you at the edge for a kill at like 180% after a CG.

Killing: It's hard, but your best chance is to force him into it by getting him offstage and forcing him into up B. Threaten an edgehog and you can ledgehop a reverse punch for the kill.


Stage Striking: Strike FD and SV, try to get to Yoshi's or BF.

Stage Banning: Tough one. He can go RC, but for a good portion of that stage he can't CG very well, it's not so hard to avoid it. Only problem is on the boat, he can always get you. You can get him too of course but yeah it's a problem. I'd say ban delfino for the walkoffs. If he chooses castle siege, be glad.

Counterpicks: Brinstar and Japes are good. Mansion to a lesser extent but on mansion he will have a really tough time killing you. It won't be legal though generally so yeah.

With no small step chain grab legal, this is winnable, you just have to play extremely gay and camp the edge.

Go to Smashville and it prevents you from having to approach across the ground- you can use the platform.

Yoshi's Island is another good stage against D3 bc he can't chain grab you very far since it is a small stage, plus the support platform leads to easier edge guarding.

I just came back from a tournament where I played Atomsk in winner's bracket- I beat his Falco on Battlefield and then beat his D3 on Smashville. It was extremely tough, but it definitely is possible as long as your region allows for DK to be viable (aka no small step chain grab lol)

Even if the gay stuff is banned this match up is still tough but very winnable. You have to adapt majorly to fight DDD. You can not go all out and go ape **** and keep throwing attacks at DDD, or you will get 20-40%. You have to spam down b while playing smart, and you have to switch it up a lot.

If you are going to do any attacks make sure they are down b, grounded up b (if shield is not full), a rising bair, headbutt (to bait a grab) and grab. That is about it if DDD is on the ground.

If DDD is in the air use anything and everything to keep him in the air. Also make sure you can DI out of his uair and dair attacks. Remeber DK bair > DDD bair.

When you are recovering you will most likely eat a few fast falled bairs from DDD. If you know that DDD will bair your recovery stall your Upb, then after DDD does his bair go for the ledge. If DDD catches on that you are doing this alot he can bait the stall since he has a lot of jumps and then bair. I would suggest that when you get hit off stage save your jump and do a forward b so that your back is turned, bair your way to safety then go for the ledge.

When DDD is recovering make him use his Upb, punish it by either grabbing ledge if he cancels it, or use SA frames to punch him as he lands.

60:40 or 65:35 DDD's favor