ZSS now has a kill throw vs MK....

Seibrik · 02-09-2010, 06:45 PM

I was playing NickRiddle for the first time in a long time (friendlies) at my house last night.

We've come to discover something new, and gay (from mk's perspective).

All credit goes to Nickriddle, but I'm just keeping you guys aware.

If ZSS grabs you at around 125% (this is earliest you'll die unstaled on FD),
she can Grabrelease into UAIR. this hurts, alot. no avoiding it.

Battlefield platforms mess it up, sometimes... but i wouldn't rely on them.

The real problem here:

Not only do you have to avoid grab, but you also must avoid dsmash, at around 90-100% all together.

ZSS, assuming ur no off the stage (she'll just spike u from dsmash here) can dsmash twice, (and depending on which side of the stage ur on) grab u so ur back will be toward the longest part, grab attack once, grab release dash grab, grab attack once, twice if ur not mashing, and continue until the edge, where the uair is the easiest to land. The timing for it otherwise is really really really tight. (must be short hopped)

the problem with this is not only the % u get, (if u started at 90, FD full stage will finish u off at about 130-140, depending on number of grab attacks) but by the time she has u on the other side of the stage, chances are no matter what, her uair will be completely refreshed, and be able to kill you easy.

I always personally thought mk/zss was 50/50, and this is only confirming it for me.

Discuss?

kirbyfan66 · 02-09-2010, 07:45 PM

Well, 125% is a very high percentage. It's something to look out for, yes, but that's WAY too high to make the matchup something like 50-50.

Also, ZSS has an awfull grab. Easy to avoid, easy to punish. Her Uair is devastating, though.

CO18 · 02-09-2010, 07:54 PM

What are you talking about 125 is not high at all Rofl. That significantly helps in killing mk. Zss's kill moves in general are easy to avoid.

demonictoonlink · 02-09-2010, 07:59 PM

Wait, does her grab release lead into another grab? I didn't know this.

Pretty cool. This should actually help the MU.

Seibrik · 02-09-2010, 08:53 PM

its not that she'll grab u alot, any stun auto leads INTO a grab, and i would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see you play NickRiddle, and avoid grabs entirely, especially when he wants to kill you.

Overswarm · 02-09-2010, 08:57 PM

Fox has a shine to u-smash combo on the ground at 80% that kills MK, Bowser has grab release to f-tilt, Diddy has grab release on a banana to d-smash, nothing new.

I'd personally love it if I got to 125% vs. ZSS and they started throwing out grabs. Miss on grab as ZSS and you're either taking a ton of damage or getting hit way off stage and in danger of losing a stock. I'm assuming this 125% required is with a fresh u-air?

Seibrik · 02-09-2010, 08:59 PM

thats not that true at all..

zss at low% has a lot of def. mixups to avoid getting airchased/hit again.

every argument i'm gonna make, is always gonna boil down to: Play nickriddle.

Overswarm · 02-09-2010, 09:05 PM

I'm gonna ignore most of it, becuase there aren't any other ZSS to play.

Y.b.M. has picked her up more seriously as of late, so I'll try to get him to work on this and see how it works. When Riddle grabs you out of stun, he grabs you by timing it with the stun release, right?

Also, I have found a new AT that may give ZSS an infinite on the entire cast. Tell Nick to PM me if he wants the lowdown before I make a vid

Seibrik · 02-09-2010, 09:06 PM

yeah, he grabs the release, which he can do to people at the ledge lol

uh, sure i'll let him know.

Jem. · 02-09-2010, 10:35 PM

Thats cool to hear, but no way is MK vs ZSS 50-50 lol. I think its silly when MK mains are now saying that MK has around 6-7 50-50 matchups just because of a new tricksie.

Overswarm · 02-09-2010, 10:56 PM

Quote:

yeah, he grabs the release, which he can do to people at the ledge lol

Wait, he can only do this on the ledge?

Worthless >_>

Seibrik · 02-09-2010, 11:01 PM

no, i believed it was 50/50 before this thing, it just kinda... solidified it to me lol

i have my reasons, and plenty of back and forth results between me and riddle backing it up

ONE:

he can do it anywhere, its EASIEST on the edge

TWO: he can grab release chaingrab MK to the edge regardless, so its not like it matters where he grabs you.

this makes me think u know less about zss than i thought.

minus two credit points for overswarm -2

Gates · 02-09-2010, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seibrik

minus two credit points for overswarm -2

Negative infinity minus two is still negative infinity.

Overswarm · 02-09-2010, 11:42 PM

ZSS u-air on grab release confirmed; the timing is really precise so new ZSS players can't rely on it without practice, but after only a few minutes I was able to get it consistently. MK can't do much about it, as the gap between when ZSS can dash after the grab release is so big that you can't "surprise" the ZSS.

The actual kill % with correct DI (away from the ZSS using u-air) is 138% (dying off the top with a front screen animation). Smash DI hasn't been accounted for, as technically MK can SDI into the ground and tech the u-air; there is no reliable way to do so.

I didn't test the grab release at the edge and am unsure how it would work, but that is irrelevant since ZSS can do it mid-stage.

Seibrik · 02-09-2010, 11:45 PM

i think the mk will die sooner toward the edge, since they cannot rely on DIing away from the stage as much, i did this and died to the side because of it..