ZSS now has a kill throw vs MK....

Sensei Seibrik · Feb 9, 2010

I was playing NickRiddle for the first time in a long time (friendlies) at my house last night.

We've come to discover something new, and gay (from mk's perspective).

All credit goes to Nickriddle, but I'm just keeping you guys aware.

If ZSS grabs you at around 125% (this is earliest you'll die unstaled on FD),
she can Grabrelease into UAIR. this hurts, alot. no avoiding it.

Battlefield platforms mess it up, sometimes... but i wouldn't rely on them.

The real problem here:

Not only do you have to avoid grab, but you also must avoid dsmash, at around 90-100% all together.

ZSS, assuming ur no off the stage (she'll just spike u from dsmash here) can dsmash twice, (and depending on which side of the stage ur on) grab u so ur back will be toward the longest part, grab attack once, grab release dash grab, grab attack once, twice if ur not mashing, and continue until the edge, where the uair is the easiest to land. The timing for it otherwise is really really really tight. (must be short hopped)

the problem with this is not only the % u get, (if u started at 90, FD full stage will finish u off at about 130-140, depending on number of grab attacks) but by the time she has u on the other side of the stage, chances are no matter what, her uair will be completely refreshed, and be able to kill you easy.

I always personally thought mk/zss was 50/50, and this is only confirming it for me.

Discuss?

kirbyfan66 · Feb 9, 2010

Well, 125% is a very high percentage. It's something to look out for, yes, but that's WAY too high to make the matchup something like 50-50.

Also, ZSS has an awfull grab. Easy to avoid, easy to punish. Her Uair is devastating, though.

CO18 · Feb 9, 2010

What are you talking about 125 is not high at all Rofl. That significantly helps in killing mk. Zss's kill moves in general are easy to avoid.

demonictoonlink · Feb 9, 2010

Wait, does her grab release lead into another grab? I didn't know this.

Pretty cool. This should actually help the MU.

Sensei Seibrik · Feb 9, 2010

its not that she'll grab u alot, any stun auto leads INTO a grab, and i would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see you play NickRiddle, and avoid grabs entirely, especially when he wants to kill you.

Overswarm · Feb 9, 2010

Fox has a shine to u-smash combo on the ground at 80% that kills MK, Bowser has grab release to f-tilt, Diddy has grab release on a banana to d-smash, nothing new.

I'd personally love it if I got to 125% vs. ZSS and they started throwing out grabs. Miss on grab as ZSS and you're either taking a ton of damage or getting hit way off stage and in danger of losing a stock. I'm assuming this 125% required is with a fresh u-air?

Sensei Seibrik · Feb 9, 2010

thats not that true at all..

zss at low% has a lot of def. mixups to avoid getting airchased/hit again.

every argument i'm gonna make, is always gonna boil down to: Play nickriddle.

Overswarm · Feb 9, 2010

I'm gonna ignore most of it, becuase there aren't any other ZSS to play.

Y.b.M. has picked her up more seriously as of late, so I'll try to get him to work on this and see how it works. When Riddle grabs you out of stun, he grabs you by timing it with the stun release, right?

Also, I have found a new AT that may give ZSS an infinite on the entire cast. Tell Nick to PM me if he wants the lowdown before I make a vid

Sensei Seibrik · Feb 9, 2010

yeah, he grabs the release, which he can do to people at the ledge lol

uh, sure i'll let him know.

Jem. · Feb 9, 2010

Thats cool to hear, but no way is MK vs ZSS 50-50 lol. I think its silly when MK mains are now saying that MK has around 6-7 50-50 matchups just because of a new tricksie.

Overswarm · Feb 9, 2010

yeah, he grabs the release, which he can do to people at the ledge lol

Wait, he can only do this on the ledge?

Worthless >_>

Sensei Seibrik · Feb 9, 2010

no, i believed it was 50/50 before this thing, it just kinda... solidified it to me lol

i have my reasons, and plenty of back and forth results between me and riddle backing it up

ONE:

he can do it anywhere, its EASIEST on the edge

TWO: he can grab release chaingrab MK to the edge regardless, so its not like it matters where he grabs you.

this makes me think u know less about zss than i thought.

minus two credit points for overswarm -2

Gates · Feb 9, 2010

Seibrik said:
minus two credit points for overswarm -2

Negative infinity minus two is still negative infinity.

Overswarm · Feb 9, 2010

ZSS u-air on grab release confirmed; the timing is really precise so new ZSS players can't rely on it without practice, but after only a few minutes I was able to get it consistently. MK can't do much about it, as the gap between when ZSS can dash after the grab release is so big that you can't "surprise" the ZSS.

The actual kill % with correct DI (away from the ZSS using u-air) is 138% (dying off the top with a front screen animation). Smash DI hasn't been accounted for, as technically MK can SDI into the ground and tech the u-air; there is no reliable way to do so.

I didn't test the grab release at the edge and am unsure how it would work, but that is irrelevant since ZSS can do it mid-stage.

Sensei Seibrik · Feb 9, 2010

i think the mk will die sooner toward the edge, since they cannot rely on DIing away from the stage as much, i did this and died to the side because of it..

Overswarm · Feb 9, 2010

My testing involved dying off the top; if MK is dying off the side, the u-airs "OMG" effect isn't that great.

All in all, this isn't that great. It's a neat trick, but that's about it. If ZSS' kill scenario is "grab Metaknight", she's fighting a losing battle. This is just a useful technique, albeit situational, that'll be something cool you see from time to time.

Toronto Joe · Feb 9, 2010

you lost me after saying foxs shine > usmash

Overswarm · Feb 9, 2010

When did I say it was a good kill setup? O_o

I just said it was a setup. If you shine MK, you can running u-smash him.

Toronto Joe · Feb 9, 2010

i corrected my post good sir...and its not that easy lol,that combo is useless

this zss thing is good to know,but i thought it was common sense to avoid getting hit past 80% because of her combos

OverLade · Feb 9, 2010

I dunno, any video evidence because I gave it a shot and doesn't seem guaranteed at all...

Overswarm · Feb 9, 2010

It is guaranteed; it is a very small window.

OverLade · Feb 9, 2010

I tried to edit my post but my internet crapped out. Yeah I went into training mode and now I can do it consistently. You just have to watch Zero suits release animation and get used to the point where you can buffer it.

This isn't a "neat trick", this is actually legit as hell and will help ZSS significantly on FD/PS1 etc... I'll do a lil testing and see where platforms actually interfere. Imo part of "all ZSS was missing" in this matchup was a legit kill setup, and this is a pretty sick kill setup, 140 or not.

OverLade · Feb 9, 2010

I think Falcon can do the same thing...

tested it: He has the same guaranteed setup.

Overswarm · Feb 9, 2010

RedHalberd said:
I think Falcon can do the same thing...

tested it: He has the same guaranteed setup.

Falcon's u-air doesn't kill.

On another note, Falcon has a grab release to knee on wario. This does not mean you should use falcon vs. Wario.

ZSS grab release is really only applicable on FD. PS1 is only a possibility in a few situations, same with smashville.

"guranteed kill setups" aren't what people need so much as guaranteed kill setups out of common situations.

OverLade · Feb 10, 2010

I didn't say anything about the matchup... you assume so much, but I've played Nick Riddle, and I guarantee getting grabbed isn't an usual occurrence, even if you play to avoid it. ZSS's grab range is long enough to where all it really takes is a good read. I agree that this is only "really relevant" on SV, PS1, and FD but it working on BF occasionally doesn't sound unrealistic.

I have video footage recorded, Seibrik do you wanna upload it specially yourself?

ADHD · Feb 10, 2010

Overswarm said:
Fox has a shine to u-smash combo on the ground at 80% that kills MK, Bowser has grab release to f-tilt, Diddy has grab release on a banana to d-smash, nothing new.

No, no he doesn't.

Sensei Seibrik · Feb 10, 2010

Adhd, did you name search, "Diddy" ????

or are u just that interested in what ELSE ***** Mk?

and halz, upload w.e. u want.

Overswarm: play nickriddle, everytime u get grabbed, i want u to forfeit ur stock, sicne u shouldn't be getting grabbed, and its not a normal occurance, u should NEVER get three stocked.

and

teluoborg · Feb 10, 2010

Overswarm said:
Falcon's u-air doesn't kill.

Why, yes it does.

It's fun how people underestimate the kb growth of Falcon's moves.

I'll be heading back to the Falcon boards now... Not really

Ingulit · Feb 10, 2010

Overswarm said:
Fox has a shine to u-smash combo on the ground at 80% that kills MK, Bowser has grab release to f-tilt, Diddy has grab release on a banana to d-smash, nothing new.

What ADHD said: nobody can ever do anything out of a Banana Choke ever without the opponent being able to react fast enough to escape it. If you're talking about Diddy Hump > Banana > D-Smash, that's completely different and most certainly not a Grab Release.

Falcon's U-Air can kill... I've played against enough in my day to know that O.o

OverLade · Feb 10, 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3QPcEPqJ7o

Here's the video. If there's anything you'd (Seibrik/Nick Riddle) like me to include in the description lemme know.

Overswarm · Feb 10, 2010

Overswarm: play nickriddle, everytime u get grabbed, i want u to forfeit ur stock, sicne u shouldn't be getting grabbed, and its not a normal occurance, u should NEVER get three stocked.

If he plays with rules made from my midwest circuit, done. I won't get grabbed once.

solecalibur · Feb 10, 2010

^ take him to libra? -.-?

Ness has a better kill throw on MK ^_^
I find the % kind of very situational and I dont think Im gonna be grabbing if MK is now looking for this

Chuee · Feb 10, 2010

Except ZSS has a better MU vs MK than Ness and he doesn't have a CG.

Overswarm · Feb 10, 2010

Chuee said:
Except ZSS has a better MU vs MK than Ness.

Gimmicky characters using disjointed hitboxes to keep MK away and doing small amounts of chip damage once MK moves past 50% while hoping for a lucky spike or grab and having insane amounts of difficulty to get a KO due to their incredibly limited options are never too far apart.

Chuee · Feb 10, 2010

You forgot that Ness gets gimped way easier than ZSS.

Typ_Ex · Feb 10, 2010

looked like Mk had a tiny window to use jumping u-air (if that makes sense) to get away. but im no mk main.

K@0S · Feb 10, 2010

You really have to fail hard to get hit by ZSS' dsmash or to get grabbed by her. Nothing scary.

PokemonMasterIRL · Feb 10, 2010

Overswarm said:
Fox has a shine to u-smash combo on the ground at 80% that kills MK, Bowser has grab release to f-tilt, Diddy has grab release on a banana to d-smash, nothing new.

I'd personally love it if I got to 125% vs. ZSS and they started throwing out grabs. Miss on grab as ZSS and you're either taking a ton of damage or getting hit way off stage and in danger of losing a stock. I'm assuming this 125% required is with a fresh u-air?

Why did you even make this post?

Chuee · Feb 10, 2010

K@0S said:
You really have to fail hard to get hit by ZSS' dsmash or to get grabbed by her. Nothing scary.

Her stun gun combos into grab, and her Dsmash starts in 20 frames(not sure) and has 0 frames of ending lag. It's definitely not high unlikely.

CaliburChamp · Feb 10, 2010

Jem. said:
Thats cool to hear, but no way is MK vs ZSS 50-50 lol. I think its silly when MK mains are now saying that MK has around 6-7 50-50 matchups just because of a new tricksie.

It's not far fetched like you think. I'm sure you would get destroyed against Riddle's strategies against MK. 100% positive. I have never heard of a good ZSS in washington, so its obvious that you have no idea what your talking about.

ZSS now has a kill throw vs MK....

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