Sex Change Operations Tax Deductible?

Sucumbio · Feb 9, 2010

Source: "Sex Change Surgery, Expenses Are Tax Deductible, Tax Court Rules"

Video Source: "Sex Change Operation as Tax Deductions?"

Now I've picked a couple of takes on the same issue, but with a purpose... Arianna Huffington is fairly liberal, whereas Fox News is normally conservative, and at the least the discussion in the video has Sandy Rios a strong right winger arguing against the Tax Court's decision.

The real deal is this: Gender Identity Disorder is a real condition. After lots of time with doctors and councilors, it may be determined sex reassignment surgery is necessary. Now one argument against the decision is that it'll lead to an influx of people wanting to deduct their cosmetic surgeries, such as nose jobs, breast implants, etc. This argument however stems from the assumption that gender reassignment is also cosmetic.

Is it?

Not in my humble opinion. Although the basis for gender identity is indeed rooted in the idea that you are Male or Female -despite- the genitalia you're born with, the fact that you may have the WRONG genitalia is a problem for many suffering from gender identity disorder. True one may argue that they just HAVE to have their nose job or they'll be SO depressed. Well for those I must remind them that many states determine gender based on physical genitalia. You won't be denied a marriage license because your nose is too pointy, but you may indeed if your "wife" is technically a man. Or perhaps you're arrested and placed in the wrong general population. Gender Identity Disorder is very real, and cannot always be willed away like Rios suggests. For many it comes down to a surgery that MUST take place, no different than liver transplant or chemotherapy.

Lore · Jun 9, 2010

This is a great topic; I wonder why this hasn't really been an active thread?

I believe that hormone therapy, facial femininization surgery, and vaginoplasty/related surgeries should be tax deductible. Nose jobs, breast implants (which usually aren't neccessary because of the hormones), etc are purely cosmetic, and they aren't really neccessary for a transexual.

My main problem with the issue is that most people think that you can just walk into a doctor's office, get a surgery, and BAM! You've got a new gender!

Unfortunately, this is not the case. You have to get a qualified psychologist to say that you have GID, go through hormone therapy, and live full time as a woman for over a year (time depends on the psychologist) before you can even think about changing what you have between your legs.

Dre89 · Jun 9, 2010

I'm curious to know how prominent this 'disorder' was back in ancient and medieval times, and how it was dealt with then.

I'm curious to know whether it's a psychological defect that's influenced by the culture or not.

Does anyone have any info on this stuff?

Crimson King · Jun 9, 2010

Usually by death and isolation.

The prevalence of mental disorders is not a new thing; the method we treat it are. Just a few decades ago, someone with schizophrenia could have been up for a lobotomy, for example.

I'll post links at my computer, but there is plenty evidence to show transexuality being a real, uncontrollable thing.

As for being tax deductible: eh. What other disorder therapy and solutions are deductible? I'm all for someone looking like the gender they feel they should be, but allowing state help is not something I support.

Deleted member · Jun 9, 2010

Just yesterday I saw in a documentary that Tourrette syndrome was "cured" with exorcism in medieval times.

As for tax deduction: unless you get a diagnosis on a disorder that requires a nose job to be cured, okay. But I general, no.

The tax system also varies a lot between countries and I don't even know what kind of treatments are deductible here. There probably aren't that many since a lot of stuff is covered by the standard health insurance, but I don't want to take this topic in that direction.

Fuelbi · Jun 9, 2010

I fully agree with making gender change a tax deductible. GID is a real thing and it'll eat a person away years if they don't get a gender change (I am correct am I?). Just because Rios "cured" this guy and made him not get a sex change, it isn't applicable to everybody. I mean for some people, having somebody trying to dissuade you from having a sex change just will not happen. The operation must be done. Now, I do agree with the fact that changes like changing your nose shouldn't be a deductible. If you find a person who says that they'll be "depressed" if they don't get a nose change, it'll most likely blow over in a couple of months if you get the person not to do it. If it hasn't been defined as a disorder, I say it shouldn't be a deductible

One thing I didn't get from the argument that Rios made was the fact that you go home and you have to tell your kids/wife about the sex change... how is that related to the topic?

@vici, wouldn't the fact that the person cured by Tourrette's (if he REALLY was cured) was cured by a Placebo or something? Just curious there.

Deleted member · Jun 9, 2010

I really really doubt you can cure tourrette with a placebo.
we are talking about a very severe disorder, that often rquires brain surgery.

Bob Jane T-Mart · Jun 11, 2010

Vi veri veniversum vivus vici said:
I really really doubt you can cure tourrette with a placebo.
we are talking about a very severe disorder, that often rquires brain surgery.

The placebo and it's opposite effect, the nocebo, are extremely powerful. People have fallen ill, only to travel to a doctor/hospital and realise that there's nothing wrong with them, and spontaneously recover in about 30 minutes.

SuperBowser · Jun 11, 2010

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1182258-overview

Tourette's syndrome is most likely an inherited neurological disorder of synaptic transmission. Obviously there is an environmental input.

While psychological state may exacerbate the problem, it is not the cause. It's true some people can spontaneously improve or worsen during the course of their life. However, placebo effect is not going to ''cure'' this disorder by any means.

1048576 · Aug 16, 2010

Are medications normally tax deductible?

Dragoon Fighter · Aug 16, 2010

There will always be things to tax yes it could be a sign of bias if they tax something in particular however the government(s) will always find something to tax. Controversial or not. Right or Wrong. So if not this then something else. There is just no escaping taxes. (well not with out problems later down the road.)

Sucumbio · Aug 17, 2010

1048576 said:
Are medications normally tax deductible?

If you itemize your deductions on Form 1040, Schedule A, you may be able to deduct expenses you paid that year for medical care (including dental) for yourself, your spouse, and your dependents. A deduction is allowed only for expenses primarily paid for the prevention or alleviation of a physical or mental defect or illness. Medical care expenses include payments for the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease, or treatment affecting any structure or function of the body. The cost of drugs is deductible only for drugs that require a prescription, except for insulin. -source

So... yes.

Dragoon Fighter said:
There will always be things to tax yes it could be a sign of bias if they tax something in particular however the government(s) will always find something to tax. Controversial or not. Right or Wrong. So if not this then something else. There is just no escaping taxes. (well not with out problems later down the road.)

The question is not whether or not the government should specifically tax sex reassignment surgery. It's whether or not patients should be able to deduct the expense of the surgery when they file taxes. And on the above:

A deduction is allowed only for expenses primarily paid for the prevention or alleviation of a physical or mental defect or illness.

To me, the answer is a resounding Yes.

1048576 · Aug 17, 2010

It seems to me that if I were a transsexual, I wouldn't want people to consider me as mentally or physically ill. So right now I'm leaning no, but I'm really not even convincing myself.

Lore · Aug 17, 2010

1048576 said:
It seems to me that if I were a transsexual, I wouldn't want people to consider me as mentally or physically ill. So right now I'm leaning no, but I'm really not even convincing myself.

When you have GID, you already consider yourself to be mentally ill. I don't mean that as you think that you're completely bat**** insane; if you have it, you know that you have a problem: your gender. Anything that can go towards fixing that is a good thing, no matter what it labels you as.

Oh, and hormones are definitely prescription only.

Sucumbio · Aug 17, 2010

1048576 said:
It seems to me that if I were a transsexual, I wouldn't want people to consider me as mentally or physically ill. So right now I'm leaning no, but I'm really not even convincing myself.

haha yeah, it's a tough call I think because you aren't actually transsexual, and can't possibly know what it's like. I believe they do actually consider themselves physically defective. It's not too much of stretch, I guess. It'd be like missing your arms, or having an extra finger? Or something. But actually you've stemmed onto another issue which is interesting. As medical technology has increased, the procedure has become a reality. A few decades ago, I may agree that transsexuals would be insulted at the idea that they're "different." All the while secretly pleading with God or whatever that they'd wake up one morning with the "right" genitals. Or not. No telling. But now? It's a reality, this sex reassignment surgery. So you CAN be a man if you were born a woman in terms of plumbing. I don't know how the older generations of transsexuals feel about this leap in technology. I don't know that they think it's good. They may very well think, as they perhaps thought before, that you should "happy" with what you got, and just live the life of a man trapped in a woman's body.

Lore · Aug 17, 2010

Sucumbio said:
haha yeah, it's a tough call I think because you aren't actually transsexual, and can't possibly know what it's like. I believe they do actually consider themselves physically defective. It's not too much of stretch, I guess. It'd be like missing your arms, or having an extra finger? Or something. But actually you've stemmed onto another issue which is interesting. As medical technology has increased, the procedure has become a reality. A few decades ago, I may agree that transsexuals would be insulted at the idea that they're "different." All the while secretly pleading with God or whatever that they'd wake up one morning with the "right" genitals. Or not. No telling. But now? It's a reality, this sex reassignment surgery. So you CAN be a man if you were born a woman in terms of plumbing. I don't know how the older generations of transsexuals feel about this leap in technology. I don't know that they think it's good. They may very well think, as they perhaps thought before, that you should "happy" with what you got, and just live the life of a man trapped in a woman's body.

The only problem with making vaginoplasty, etc surgeries tax-free is that what you have between your legs is a completely private matter.

Most transsexuals who actually are transsexual and not a fetishist, etc care more about the outside appearances. If a transsexual looks more like his/her target gender, he/she is much, much more likely to be accepted in everyday life.

Hormones are a big part of this, and facial femininization surgery is also extremely helpful.

Edit: And yes, the feeling of "being trapped in the wrong body, etc" is a horrible feeling to have.

Sucumbio · Aug 17, 2010

Again, to reiterate, it's not a matter of being tax-free. It's being tax deductible. That's a big point. Reason is, heart surgery is tax deductible. If you have any major surgery, you can claim itemized deductions on your taxes for the amount of the hospital stay, the post-surgery therapy, the prescription medicines, etc. That adds up to A LOT. Thousands actually. Which can be subtracted from your income when you file, meaning you have a greater chance of getting a tax return instead of having to pay out. This does not mean when your insurance company is billed for the surgery, that the price they are charged is sans tax. It just means you are allowed to use it as a deduction, the same as you can deduct your car fuel expenditures for the year (provided you kept your receipts, audits are a pain!). I understand that many of us here aren't quite old enough to know a bunch about how tax returns work, but the reason I keep pointing this out, is because transgenders feel that if someone can deduct their heart surgery expenses, then they should be able to deduct their genital surgery expenses.

Lore · Aug 17, 2010

Oh, that changes a lot then. I'm sorry about that; I really have no idea how taxes work.

Now that I know how tax deduction works, I think genital surgeries should probably be deductible. However, like I said before, they really are a minor part of the transgender process.

1048576 · Aug 17, 2010

Yeah, I can see that. But some of those symptoms (like having too large an Adam's Apple) require cosmetic changes, which tax deductions do not cover. On the other hand, the plumbing is more than cosmetic and should be covered.

Lore · Aug 17, 2010

1048576 said:
Yeah, I can see that. But some of those symptoms (like having too large an Adam's Apple) require cosmetic changes, which tax deductions do not cover. On the other hand, the plumbing is more than cosmetic and should be covered.

Hormones are a big part of this, and

facial feminization surgery

Click to expand...

is also extremely helpful.

FFS includes many cosmetic changes like reducing an adam's apple. That's really the only cosmetic surgery that is really, really helpful.

Besides that, changing what you have between your legs is not cosmetic. It is purely a private matter, and a lot of transsexuals wait a long time to do it. Sure, it could be tax deductible, but it isn't completely needed for everyday life.

"Plumbing" is included in genitalia related surgeries.

1048576 · Aug 17, 2010

I know what "plumbing" is and I know it's not just cosmetic.

If the general rule is that cosmetic surgery is not covered, then I don't think FFS should be covered. How about if a burn victim wants those pink spotches removed? That's kind of the level I'd put an FFS on. Without that surgery, you can still consider yourself the opposite gender, just a really ugly version. I think hormones should be covered, since that alleviates a lot of non-cosmetic symptoms as well.

Also, lol at abbreviating it FFS.

Lore · Aug 17, 2010

I figured that you knew that "plumbing" isn't cosmetic, but I wanted to mention that it is included in most genitalia related surgeries anyway.

Yes, FFS is cosmetic, but in some cases it's neccessary. Transsexuals usually get enough hate as it is, and if they can look more like their target gender, it will be a lot easier for them to function in everyday society without being insulted, hated, and persecuted because they're obviously a "******."

I thought that burn victims are allowed to have deductible surgeries if their wounds are severe enough. Can you show me a source that says that they aren't ever deductible?

1048576 · Aug 17, 2010

No, I don't know the status of burn victims, but whatever degree of tax deductible cosmetic surgery they get is what I feel transsexuals should have, basically.

You don't have the right to not be offended. This includes transsexuals being insulted by jerks. I'm thinking of making a thread on this. It's basically a corollary to free speech. It's why you need a "rational basis" for things like anti-gay legislation or preventing the building of a mosque.

Lore · Aug 17, 2010

1048576 said:
No, I don't know the status of burn victims, but whatever degree of tax deductible cosmetic surgery they get is what I feel transsexuals should have, basically.

You don't have the right to not be offended. This includes transsexuals being insulted by jerks. I'm thinking of making a thread on this. It's basically a corollary to free speech. It's why you need a "rational basis" for things like anti-gay legislation or preventing the building of a mosque.

I guess I can agree with this. Tbh, we just need a clear line between "ok cosmetic" and "not ok cosmetic."

Isn't not wanting to be hated, beaten up persecuted, killed, or shunned a "rational reason?" Trust me, transsexuals take a lot of heat and are seen as "freaks."

I'll find some examples of violence against transsexuals later; I'm on my iPod.

1048576 · Aug 18, 2010

I'm fully aware that transsexuals go through hell, but I'm not sure cosmetic surgery is a physical necessity, as in, it affects their chances of getting beaten up. If you can show that it does affect this to a reasonable degree, then yeah I'm all for paying some of my money to give them the protection they deserve. You don't get to not be hated or shunned (where I live). It's not a right enjoyed by the US, or any country with free speech.

Sucumbio · Aug 20, 2010

1048576 said:
You don't get to not be hated or shunned (where I live). It's not a right enjoyed by the US, or any country with free speech.

Well now, just to nitpick, let us not forget EEO (Equal Opportunity Employment) which states no employer will deny (shun) someone the right to work based on their race, gender, ethnicity, marital status, and a billion other things, I swear that list keeps getting longer each year, lol. I know that's not what you're saying, but the way you said what you said, it could be taken that way, so just to put that out there.

Also hate crimes can involve things seemingly protected under free speech rights.

It is an interesting point you've brought up, and as of now, currently, the tax court's law does NOT include cosmetic surgery -of any kind- including FFS. Burn victims receive necessary stabilizing treatment as normal, and then epidermal reconstructive surgery, which is necessary and considered part of treating post-burn trauma. It is generally assumed that if a transsexual wants their face to appear more like their target sex, they will pay for that out of pocket. And this has led to some problems, actually... in the past many plastic surgeons would be unwilling to do it, so people were forced to go to unlicensed practitioners who would either have unclean or under-funded facilities, or in fact be incompetent with their work

Sex Change Operations Tax Deductible?

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