Snake vs. Pikachu

Underload · Feb 10, 2010

Discuss the Pikachu matchup in here. Discussion is open indefinitely. Don't be afraid to post.

Bulletpoints:

Surprisingly, this is one of the more campy matchups there is. You'll be staying back and trying to keep away from Pikachu's grab game (arguably the best behind ICs, D3, and Falco), and Pikachu will spend his spare time camping you for the positional advantage.
Learn to powershield thunderjolt. It'll give you hell otherwise, because it's Pikachu's only real camping tool.
Be wary of usmash / utilt -> thunder at higher percents. Pikachu's CQC doesn't fare terribly well against Snake, but thunder is a different story, it was practically made to counter Snake's terrible aerial mobility.
Don't be afraid of getting a bit close to Pikachu, if you're not at cg percentages. His range is average at best, you should be winning most of the time, even if it's just a desparate utilt.
Edgeguarding is tricky. Bair seems to work well in stopping his Up B, just wait for that instead of trying to hit him out of his skull bash.
Banning Delfino is your best bet. It's seriously a horrible stage for the matchup. Rainbow Cruise, too. Counterpick FD or Brinstar if you can help it.
General consensus is 55:45 in Snake's favor.

Notable Posts:

Yumewomiteru said:
Thats a really bad reason since you don't take into account of the player skill level.

I don't know this matchup well enough to write a good summary. But I know a few things about this matchup.

Pikachu can cg snake up to 80 or 90 starting from 0-20. Fthrow to 23% and dthrow to 80ish, Snake can pull a nade after 60 iirc, but if pika cg you to the ledge then it will fall away harmlessly. Maybe blowing yourself up at low percent is a good idea, or you can try to avoid the grab since pika's grab range is bad, although he does have setups into grabs.

Pikachu's thunder ruins Snake's vertical DI so Snake will die a bit earlier up than against others. You want to DI to the side rather than up against pikachu.

If you don't know Snake can SDI out of pika's dsmash.

Snake still beats pikachu imo because of his range advantage and his damage output and weight. Though he will die a bit earlier than against others because of the thunder, but Pikachu still has killing problems.

55-45 Snake imo.

Zajice said:
Look, a character I know things about finally.

Basically, Pikachu is a character that's forced to get in close when he's not camping. All of his moves' sweetspots are close to him, which is the main reason Marth is Pikachu's hardest matchup. This is good news for Snake too, since he has much more range on his moves than Pikachu.

Snake has a good advantage in terms of killing. He can do it soooo much more easily than Pikachu. It's hard to land kill moves on a good player with Pikachu. His main forms of killing are up-smash, thunder, n-air and f-smash. Thunder kills are usually from anything that knocks you up high > thunder, but the sweetspot right next to Pikachu will kill you just as easily. F-tilt can be a surprise killer at the edge of a stage, and up-tilt kills at very high percents. All of these are pretty easy to see coming, except maybe the tilts, but those are less conventional forms of killing.

The first and most obvious thing to watch for are the grabs. I'm all too familiar with the nasty chaingrabs he can do. The big % CG is only possible if they grab you at low percents, so camp like a *****. And there's also the classic d-throw > up-tilt > aerial stuff for when you go over that percent threshold. Sometimes Pikachus will use d-throw, wait for you to air dodge as you fall back down, then re-grab you, so keep that in mind.

Camping back isn't too hard. Pull grenades between jolts and shield drop when they get close. Let him do the approaching and react accordingly. Mines are pretty pointless, since jolts get rid of them easily.

The moves with the most space are d-tilt and f-smash. I remember hearing d-tilt has enough distance to hit Marth when you're spaced enough for him to tipper f-smash you. So basically, d-tilt is about as long as Marth's f-smash. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

F-smash isn't as much to worry about. It has quite a bit of startup and the sweetspot is in front of Pikachu, so getting hit with the tip isn't too bad.

Don't think QAC is unpunishable. It's very punishable. You can hit him out of it and he has a small bit of landing lag every time he lands after doing it. Take advantage of this if you can. Don't be dumb and let them QAC through you several times in a row either. I can't tell you how many times I've seen this happen.

AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DI UP AND OUT OF D-SMASH. I'M TIRED OF SEEING PEOPLE GET HIT BY ALL THE HITS. Make sure you tech when you hit the ground. There are nasty possible follow-ups if you don't. Mainly up-smash.

It's important that you not momentum cancel when hit upwards. It's a free thunder kill for Pikachu. Wait for the thunder and air dodge.

That's all I can think of at the moment. I'll add more as it comes up.

Sinz said:
One thing I know about the match up is that you can jab thunderjolt and it cancels out.

Stealth Raptor said:
i think this matchup is fairly even. both chars can kill each other relatively earlier compared to what they are used to. pikachu has some mad wicked combos on snake not to mention a cg. snake however has the range and priority with his tilts to rapidly rack a lot of damage up quickly. if used correctly tjolts can break the camp or at least greatly hamper nade camping by snakes. as long as the pikachu plays a fairly close to the vest game he can go toe to toe with snake. i give snake the edge due to the fact he can kill pikachu early, 55-45 snake

shmot said:
i think i would call pikachu annoying more than good. but he annoys us enough to make this mu even. he can capitalize on our mistakes and brutalize us quite easily; if we give him the chance.

first things first; the cg. dthrow works from 23% to about 30% or so, and takes you to 90% with a regrab/nair/usmash. fthrow works from 0 to 70%. imperative that you camp your *** off during these percents. the fthrow to the edge leads him into an nair or edgeguard, and recovering from here will be hard. seriously, a single grab can cost you the match. camp til 70%. nades do outcamp pika, just remember to ps and cancel the thunderjolts. although generally pikas will bait the dodge and try and force you into a grab, so keep at a distance when camping and stay fluid.

after youve hit that magically 70%... approach. not too obviously, but spaced ftilts make life for pika really hard. his range is very poor, and has to rely on mindgames and projectiles to lead into safe attacks. learn your opponents patterns, punish with ftilt and pivot grabs.

and for the kill... utilt beats everything he has in the air, but his fsmash would probably outrange it. dont miss; youll be eating an usmash. make sure he has to at the very least shield to avoid it. like always, try not to get hungry or else you get *****.

if the pika knows how to qac, edge guarding can be annoying. generally a good idea to leave a mine/nade a little distance from the ledge and then ledge grab. qa does not knock you off the edge (at least from memory), although watch out for the headbutt.

when hes edgeguarding you, make sure you actually wait for the thunder. its plenty signposted, and you wont airdodge it all if you go early. make sure you wait. this makes recovering a bit of a pain. the timing is faster if youre higher up so remember that too.

and if you break your hand and cant sdi out of dsmash, or get hit upwards but usmash or something DONT MOMENTUM CANCEL. you will eat a thunder and there will be nothing you can do about. this is one reason why pikachu can kill us better than most.

if hes spamming qac, hone in one where you think hell land and dash attack or pivot grab. watch out for cancelled thunders or aerials, though.

if hes ledging... gl. time your nades and c4s. hes a ***** to get through though. thank god for ledge grab limits.

and when hes trying to kill you... expect lots of nair. it works wonders. also fair --> fthrow to get you off the edge so he can **** you. running usmash will punish any lag you have. camp hard at high percents and expect these moves to maximise your impact before you die.

stages... he does well where we dont. winning on his cp is going to be tough. id ban brinstar... pika ***** too hard there; his recovery improves significantly, we die early due to lack of vertical momentum canceling and a super low ceiling, and he benefits more from sustained hitboxes. expect to be taken to rc or lylat i think; camping him on either one of those is difficult. id take him to sv personally, simply because the moving platform makes camping him easier. i think frigate would work well too... he benefits from ledges more than us. and halberd is always good for us

but yeah, i call even. the cg is ****, and he edgeguards us really well... but we **** him everywhere in between. keep the match working with your strengths and camp the crap out of that rodent.

Next 3 posts are referring to the fthrow and dthrow chaingrabs specifically:

Stealth Raptor said:
very hard, if done at the right percentages it is impossible to get out. smart pikas will pause between each cg to make sure no nade was dropped. smarter ones will put you on the edge where your nade will fall away harmlessly. for the most part, if they dont get you at the percentages listed, you can get out at certain points, but idk how hard it is for the snake to time it

Stealth Raptor said:
it ends at 80-90, i believe you can DI and jump out of it after that. you are still close enough to 130, where a good utilt to thunder will kill. always watch out for that, and if you can avoid it you will live a long time, pika has a hard time killing snake early if he cant hit utilt->thunder

Underload said:
Yeah, don't get grabbed. Ever. I played a fairly good Pikachu the first few months I was in the scene, and I quickly learned that getting grabbed is very inconvenient and usually deadly. Even if you do get taken to 90, however, it's not the end of the world yet. It's actually quite difficult for Pikachu to get a decent string of hits in against a good Snake. Just learn when to shield, when to roll, and when to spot / air dodge, and just camp twice as hard.

When I was getting grabbed due to my bad habits as Snake (mind you, this was way back in the day), I would just pick a stage with a decent amount of platform space (usually Yoshi's Island Brawl), sit up on top of the platform, and constantly shield drop nades and plant C4s, fullhop detonating the C4 if if they get close. It isn't your job to approach, so make them either commit suicide by running in, or stand back and wait for you. Either one will let you get your composure (aka not get grabbed).

I hope we help at least a little bit

edit: As for dealing with the actual chaingrab, I can tell you this. Hold the control stick out and away from Pikachu while getting fthrow chaingrabbed, and mash jump to see if you can get out. If their timing isn't tight, you might wiggle out of it. Also, mashing at low percents helps. To mash, ideally, you need to be hitting the shoulder buttons, face buttons, and turning the control stick either clockwise or counterclockwise. All at the same time. If you know you're about to get dthrown (even out of the fthrow CG), mash the hell out of B and see if you can buffer a grenade. If you can, then the CG won't last for long, since the Pikachu will either get scared and bail, or get blown up. Either way, you're free.

SamuraiPanda said:
FD. Counterintuitive at first, yes, but it forces Pikachu to approach and allows you plenty of space to camp him all day. Its also a large stage, making it harder for him to kill you, and landing the KO on Snake is rather difficult for Pikachu as it is.

The Milk Monster said:
Yeah Delfino was just kind of a personal CP I use, but Japes and Pictochat seem good.

@Panda
Yeah at first I didn't even give FD a second thought, as it seemed like he could get Snake in the air easier. But in our defense, it is quite large, making it harder to kill us. And Pika < Snake in survivability. (And awesome.)

Personally, I like Brinstar a lot as Snake. Crazy low ceiling for quick utilt kills, potential save from spikes (Lava), the course is dark so it's hard to see the explosives, and there isn't a lot of stage, so it's fairly easy to control it.

SamuraiPanda said:
I've found Frigate to be lackluster at best. Also, Brinstar cuts his CGs due to the angles and the lava, it doesn't let him use projectiles, his extended hitboxes are hilariously easy to punish, his survivability is destroyed due to the closer blastboxes (Pika relys on his absurd aerial mobility and bucket brake to survive to Snake-like percents), and his ledge game is shut down when the lava comes up.

Overall its a decent stage in the matchup. Likely dependent mostly on your playstyle more than anything else.

Pika_Cam said:
I find it hard to see this as even. It's 55:45 Snake IMO.

Snake can outcamp Pikachu and force an approach, which already puts him at a disadvantage. You can just jab tjolts or powershield if you prefer. Eventually Pikachu will get frustrated from getting hit by nades and just approach. Pikachu's approach is limited. He can shield approach and try to grab you. He can fair approach. He may use sh autocancelled dairs, or he could just try to dash grab you. That's pretty much all he's got here. Snake's pivot grab isn't even hard to land if Pikachu tries to grab. Pikachu's range is so limited. He may try to FF fair you to whatever combo, but you can either shield or hold a grenade and he will fail hard. QACing is just like asking for a jab or utilt to the face. If Pikachu starts jab comboing you, you get a free uptilt on him. However, a smart Pika will only jab you once so you trip. You shouldn't have trouble killing Pika; a few ftilts and grab techchasing and Pikachu will be ready for an utilt death.

The biggest problems Snake has here are in the air or when he's being chaingrabbed. Pikachu is a terrific juggler with uairs, nairs, and even bairs. These are usually led in by a dthrow, utilt, or a FF fair. Seriously, learn to not get hit by FF fair. It leads into utilt, dsmash, grab, ftilt, and even dtilt. If he is juggling you, he can also dsmash before you hit the ground to catch you in it and give you less time to DI out.

And then he has thunder... the way Snake recovers can make this tricky, but it's definitely avoidable if you stop your recovery just before you reach it and fall directly downward to the ledge. Avoid being uptilted at high percents because you will probably be in too much hitstun to get away from being thundered off the top. The key for DIing away from thunder is to get as low and horizontally far away as possible. A lot of people focus too much on airdodging and end up getting killed off the top. If you do get too low, the Pikachu will most likely decide not to thunder because missing could mean eating a bair as Snake comes down. He could still try to hit you with the base of thunder, which has a lot of kill potential, but you can see it coming if you just exercise good judgement.

Sorry if I am a little scatterbrained. Hope that helps.

KayLo! said:
Personally, I think it's dead even..... or slightly in Snake's favor if that makes people feel better. Everybody's pretty much covered everything I would say, though.

I think a large part of the matchup in practise is who loses their stock first. Pikachu has to be VERY careful not to die before Snake. Once we're a stock behind and forced to approach for the kill, it can be ridiculously impossible to catch up. If Snake dies first, however, we have the mobility to safely rack damage while avoiding anything deadly.

My favorite stages against Snake are Frigate and Delfino. I ban Brinstar. Dunno if I'd ban that or Japes if Japes was legal here, but PA has a pretty conservative stage list, so thankfully I don't have to worry about it.

Dvandread · Feb 10, 2010

Just look at the fight between Ally and Anther, then you'll know snake wins it over a lame pikachu.

Yumewomiteru · Feb 10, 2010

Thats a really bad reason since you don't take into account of the player skill level.

I don't know this matchup well enough to write a good summary. But I know a few things about this matchup.

Pikachu can cg snake up to 80 or 90 starting from 0-20. Fthrow to 23% and dthrow to 80ish, Snake can pull a nade after 60 iirc, but if pika cg you to the ledge then it will fall away harmlessly. Maybe blowing yourself up at low percent is a good idea, or you can try to avoid the grab since pika's grab range is bad, although he does have setups into grabs.

Pikachu's thunder ruins Snake's vertical DI so Snake will die a bit earlier up than against others. You want to DI to the side rather than up against pikachu.

If you don't know Snake can SDI out of pika's dsmash.

Snake still beats pikachu imo because of his range advantage and his damage output and weight. Though he will die a bit earlier than against others because of the thunder, but Pikachu still has killing problems.

55-45 Snake imo.

Zajice · Feb 10, 2010

Look, a character I know things about finally.

Basically, Pikachu is a character that's forced to get in close when he's not camping. All of his moves' sweetspots are close to him, which is the main reason Marth is Pikachu's hardest matchup. This is good news for Snake too, since he has much more range on his moves than Pikachu.

Snake has a good advantage in terms of killing. He can do it soooo much more easily than Pikachu. It's hard to land kill moves on a good player with Pikachu. His main forms of killing are up-smash, thunder, n-air and f-smash. Thunder kills are usually from anything that knocks you up high > thunder, but the sweetspot right next to Pikachu will kill you just as easily. F-tilt can be a surprise killer at the edge of a stage, and up-tilt kills at very high percents. All of these are pretty easy to see coming, except maybe the tilts, but those are less conventional forms of killing.

The first and most obvious thing to watch for are the grabs. I'm all too familiar with the nasty chaingrabs he can do. The big % CG is only possible if they grab you at low percents, so camp like a *****. And there's also the classic d-throw > up-tilt > aerial stuff for when you go over that percent threshold. Sometimes Pikachus will use d-throw, wait for you to air dodge as you fall back down, then re-grab you, so keep that in mind.

Camping back isn't too hard. Pull grenades between jolts and shield drop when they get close. Let him do the approaching and react accordingly. Mines are pretty pointless, since jolts get rid of them easily.

The moves with the most space are d-tilt and f-smash. I remember hearing d-tilt has enough distance to hit Marth when you're spaced enough for him to tipper f-smash you. So basically, d-tilt is about as long as Marth's f-smash. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

F-smash isn't as much to worry about. It has quite a bit of startup and the sweetspot is in front of Pikachu, so getting hit with the tip isn't too bad.

Don't think QAC is unpunishable. It's very punishable. You can hit him out of it and he has a small bit of landing lag every time he lands after doing it. Take advantage of this if you can. Don't be dumb and let them QAC through you several times in a row either. I can't tell you how many times I've seen this happen.

AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DI UP AND OUT OF D-SMASH. I'M TIRED OF SEEING PEOPLE GET HIT BY ALL THE HITS. Make sure you tech when you hit the ground. There are nasty possible follow-ups if you don't. Mainly up-smash.

It's important that you not momentum cancel when hit upwards. It's a free thunder kill for Pikachu. Wait for the thunder and air dodge.

That's all I can think of at the moment. I'll add more as it comes up.

mikeray4 · Feb 10, 2010

nade and ftilt

Dvandread · Feb 10, 2010

Utilt vs Dtilt

I think (If I'm not mistaken) Snake's utilt has a further range then his dtilt. Could be wrong though that's what I got out of a guide I read on this forum about Snake.

Oh and you are right about the Anther and Ally fight, I wasn't sure of the skill difference at the time since I'm new to smash community, but I understand now

.

Berserker. · Feb 10, 2010

Hey guys, got nothing to say about Pika since Zajice said most of it but if you wanna know the full CG data of Pika. Here it is:

KayLo! said:
Chaingrabbing (CGing) -- Pikachu has the 4rd best CG game in Brawl, beaten only by DDD, Falco, and the ICs. His fthrow CG works on all of the cast at very, very low percentages, excluding Marth, Pit, Kirby, MK, G&W, Luigi, Ness, Lucario, ZSS, Lucas, and Peach. To do the fthrow CG, simply fthrow your opponent, buffer a dash, then regrab them.

The following characters can be fthrow CG'd to a fairly high percentage:

*Original testing by Ruuku
Bowser: 0%-60%
Captain Falcon: 0%-60%
King DDD: 0%-60%
Donkey Kong: 0%-60%
Falco: 0%-60%
Fox: 0%-50%
Ganondorf: 0%-60%
Ike: 0%-60%
Link: 0%-60%
Sheik: 0%-70%
Snake: 0%-60%
Wolf: 0%-60%

Pikachu also has an unbuffered dthrow CG on fastfallers. This one's even easier: you just dthrow, regrab, and dthrow again. Here's the list of characters who can be CG'd by dthrow this way:

Unbuffered Dthrow CG (Original Testing by Ruuku)
Captain Falcon: 0%-80%
Fox: 0%-70%
Sheik: 0%-60%
Wolf: 0%-30%

*Note: Sheik and Captain Falcon can DI towards you and footstool out of the CG on the first throw, so this is not a true chaingrab on them. However, many opponents don't know this, so it's worth trying if you can get the grab. Otherwise, use the fthrow or buffered dthrow CGs.

You think the CG shenanigans stop there? Oh no, my friend! Pikachu's dthrow has excellent vertical range, so if you buffer a grab out of dthrow, it's possible to regrab characters on whom the regular, unbuffered dthrow CG does not work. Many of Pikachu's buffered dthrow CGs require some setting up or pummels to control dthrow's staleness, but it's well worth it to be able to CG characters such as MK and better CG characters like Falco, Wolf, and DDD.

Buffering is further explained in MNTC. If you're having trouble with the timing of these CGs, remember that you have approximately 10 frames at the end of dthrow to input the next grab; visually, it's about halfway through the dthrow animation when Pikachu curls into a ball and starts to fall. Also, one of the biggest mistakes people tend to make is holding the grab button -- don't hold it, tap it! Otherwise, you'll shield instead of grab.

Just practice until it becomes second nature. For more information, visit the Chaingrab Confirmation Thread.

If you need a visual aid, ESAM's video demonstrates a few of the buffered CGs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v8Myoltijo

Buffered Dthrow CG Combos (Original Testing by Michael Hey, K Prime, The Truth!, RPK, & ESAM)
Diddy Kong: 0%-21% + regrab (fthrow > dthrow > grab)
Donkey Kong: 7%-26% + regrab (dthrow x2 > grab)
Falco: 0%-100% + regrab (fthrow x2 > dthrow x13 > grab)
Fox: 0%~100% + regrab (dthrow x14+ > grab)
Ike: 0%-62% + regrab (dthrow x9 > grab)
King Dedede: 0%-77% + regrab (fthrow x2 > pummel > dthrow x3 > pummel > dthrow x4 > grab)
Link: 0%-41% + regrab (dthrow x5 > grab)
Lucas: 5%-33% + regrab (dthrow x3 > grab)
Meta Knight: 0%-52% + regrab (dthrow x7 > grab)
Sheik: 0%-105% + regrab (fthrow x2 > dthrow x14 > grab)
Snake (ver. 1): 0%-83% + regrab (fthrow x2 > pummel > dthrow x3 > pummel > dthrow x5 > grab)
Snake (ver. 2): 10%-90% + regrab (fthrow > pummel > dthrow x10 > grab)
Snake (ver. 3): 0%-90% + regrab (fthrow to ledge > dthrow to 90% or below (must begin dthrow by 30%))
Squirtle: 3%-22% + regrab (dthrow x2 > grab)
Wolf (ver. 1): 0%-115% + regrab (dthrow x3 > pummel > dthrow x14 > grab)
Wolf (ver. 2): 0%-115% + regrab (dthrow x3 > fthrow > dthrowx13 > grab)

Pika has a Wario-specific dthrow CG (until 120%) that is very situational, as it only works on the edges of certain platforms on certain stages when Pikachu is facing in a certain direction.... yeaaah. It's not worth going into detail about here, but you can find more information in its original thread.

Original thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219183
Discovered by TheHulk, Confirmed by Stealth Raptor

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJPjX7hY-jU
Performed by Stealth Raptor

There's also a new dthrow CG on the ledge that works on heavies and fastfallers, guaranteed at least on Fox, Falco, and Wolf until 100%+. It is extremely hard to pull off, but the benefit is that you can fthrow CG into it. Look towards the bottom of the Wario CG thread for more information.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16xJrnVOrm0
Discovered & Performed by K Prime

Oh and some tips to tell:
Camp Pikachu and Don't get grabbed or combo'd

Yumewomiteru · Feb 11, 2010

Berk you can't really say "don't get combo'ed" because Pikachu is built to combo and Snake is built to be comboed. Snake WILL get combo'ed by Pika, but he wins because he survives alot longer than Pika. And when Snake reach a certain damage he will be hit too far away to be combo'ed anymore.

Berserker. · Feb 11, 2010

Well in other words, what I'm trying to say is, don't get combo'd a lot. It's just like saying "Don't get grabbed" but like what Nappy said, Snake is not flawless.

So what I meant was avoid getting combo'd too much.

Darkling_Ninja · Feb 11, 2010

I Just think of Pikachu as a moving ball of electricty. Since Pikachu is a super light wieght exchanging hits has no downfalls in most situations. Most of the time pulling out a grenade and waiting for pikachu to make a move is the best situation. Either Grende counter or cook/throw.

On flat maps like smashvile and final destination this can be tricky though since thunder jolt can easily stun snake and make him drop his grenade and possably even blow it up. Bouncing the the grenade of the ground and moving back or just throwing it into the air is a good stall if needed.

In a more aggressive situation when face with thunder jolts its as simple as jumping over the thunder jolts with a grenade in your hand. Pikachu will be force to approach and exchange blows or back up which will allow snake to corner him for a good set up.

The thunder attack can kill snake at a low percentage (100% low for snake). This is simple avoided by air dodging during the slight lag inbetween pikachu's starting his thunder and it taking effect. Di-ing the thunder is allso a good way to avoid it. If pikachu is using his annoying D-smash DI-ing to the side is an easy way to avoid thunder.

I say snake vs Pikachu is 40-60 in snakes favor. Pikachu's Attacks and combos can be deadly to snake but are easily avoided and countered. If pikachu can only successfuly counters snakes camping on a few maps, and if pikachu does counter snake can easily be agressive and put pikachu in a bad position. If snake is attacked by pikachu exchnaging hits or using a grenade to counter or hurt pikachu and snake with a grenade is a solid way to put pikachu in its place.(no pun intended)

Stealth Raptor · Feb 11, 2010

subscribing, ill give my opinions on this matchup once i have a spare moment between hw assignments ><

6Mizu · Feb 11, 2010

His projectile shouldn't affect Snake.
If you getting to hit by them.....
LrntoPS.

Also, from what I know don't recover high.

what the MU ratio?

Sinz · Feb 11, 2010

One thing I know about the match up is that you can jab thunderjolt and it cancels out.

6Mizu · Feb 11, 2010

Here's something recent:
Anther (pikachu) v. Panda (snake)

Pika_Cam · Feb 11, 2010

I don't think that's a good representation of this matchup. Anther wasn't taking SamuraiPanda very seriously.

6Mizu · Feb 11, 2010

Pika_Cam said:
I don't think that's a good representation of this matchup. Anther wasn't taking SamuraiPanda very seriously.

No 1 say it was. I just put it up to "interpret".

Stealth Raptor · Feb 11, 2010

i think this matchup is fairly even. both chars can kill each other relatively earlier compared to what they are used to. pikachu has some mad wicked combos on snake not to mention a cg. snake however has the range and priority with his tilts to rapidly rack a lot of damage up quickly. if used correctly tjolts can break the camp or at least greatly hamper nade camping by snakes. as long as the pikachu plays a fairly close to the vest game he can go toe to toe with snake. i give snake the edge due to the fact he can kill pikachu early, 55-45 snake

Attila_ · Feb 11, 2010

i think i would call pikachu annoying more than good. but he annoys us enough to make this mu even. he can capitalize on our mistakes and brutalize us quite easily; if we give him the chance.

first things first; the cg. dthrow works from 23% to about 30% or so, and takes you to 90% with a regrab/nair/usmash. fthrow works from 0 to 70%. imperative that you camp your *** off during these percents. the fthrow to the edge leads him into an nair or edgeguard, and recovering from here will be hard. seriously, a single grab can cost you the match. camp til 70%. nades do outcamp pika, just remember to ps and cancel the thunderjolts. although generally pikas will bait the dodge and try and force you into a grab, so keep at a distance when camping and stay fluid.

after youve hit that magically 70%... approach. not too obviously, but spaced ftilts make life for pika really hard. his range is very poor, and has to rely on mindgames and projectiles to lead into safe attacks. learn your opponents patterns, punish with ftilt and pivot grabs.

and for the kill... utilt beats everything he has in the air, but his fsmash would probably outrange it. dont miss; youll be eating an usmash. make sure he has to at the very least shield to avoid it. like always, try not to get hungry or else you get *****.

if the pika knows how to qac, edge guarding can be annoying. generally a good idea to leave a mine/nade a little distance from the ledge and then ledge grab. ~~qa does not knock you off the edge (at least from memory)~~, although watch out for the headbutt.

when hes edgeguarding you, make sure you actually wait for the thunder. its plenty signposted, and you wont airdodge it all if you go early. make sure you wait. this makes recovering a bit of a pain. the timing is faster if youre higher up so remember that too.

and if you break your hand and cant sdi out of dsmash, or get hit upwards but usmash or something DONT MOMENTUM CANCEL. you will eat a thunder and there will be nothing you can do about. this is one reason why pikachu can kill us better than most.

if hes spamming qac, hone in one where you think hell land and dash attack or pivot grab. watch out for cancelled thunders or aerials, though.

if hes ledging... gl. time your nades and c4s. hes a ***** to get through though. thank god for ledge grab limits.

and when hes trying to kill you... expect lots of nair. it works wonders. also fair --> fthrow to get you off the edge so he can **** you. running usmash will punish any lag you have. camp hard at high percents and expect these moves to maximise your impact before you die.

stages... he does well where we dont. winning on his cp is going to be tough. id ban brinstar... pika ***** too hard there; his recovery improves significantly, we die early due to lack of vertical momentum canceling and a super low ceiling, and he benefits more from sustained hitboxes. expect to be taken to rc or lylat i think; camping him on either one of those is difficult. id take him to sv personally, simply because the moving platform makes camping him easier. i think frigate would work well too... he benefits from ledges more than us. and halberd is always good for us

but yeah, i call even. the cg is ****, and he edgeguards us really well... but we **** him everywhere in between. keep the match working with your strengths and camp the crap out of that rodent.

Zajice · Feb 14, 2010

shmot said:
qa does not knock you off the edge (at least from memory)

Yes it does. It has a hitbox, so it's just as capable of knocking you off the ledge as any other move. You just won't go very far since the knockback never increases.

The Milk Monster · Feb 15, 2010

Yeah QA can knock off the edge, though it seldom happens.

I'mma gonna' get hella' experience in this match up tomorrow, no joke. Going into it completely blind, anything I should particularly watch out for?

Underload · Feb 15, 2010

See if the Pikachu is willing to be patient or not. If he is, and is shooting off tons of thunderjolts and the like, then take your time yourself, set some explosives up, and force him to make a move.

If he's scrubby and/or aggro, then just be patient anyway

Patience is soooo important with Snake in every matchup, and a lot of players tend to lack it. Even if it's not part of your subconscious Smash mindset, just actively wait and read people, and you should be fine.

Superspright · Feb 15, 2010

Semicolons are a punctuation mark that is used to denote the connection between two independent clauses. What you've been doing there is comma splicing...

Underload · Feb 15, 2010

I saw maybe one spot I could replace a comma with a semicolon in there. That's fantastic that you're taking the time to correct me on my grammar and all, but you have to understand that I don't take the time to read my posts over multiple times to look for errors and such. If I did something like that on an English paper, then I might take you seriously. But correcting me on some advice I'm giving to another player is just dickish.

Go ahead and harp on me starting a sentence with "but".

Yumewomiteru · Feb 15, 2010

Superspright said:
Semicolons are a punctuation mark that is used to denote the connection between two independent clauses. What you've been doing there is comma splicing...

Underload said:
I saw maybe one spot I could replace a comma with a semicolon in there. That's fantastic that you're taking the time to correct me on my grammar and all, but you have to understand that I don't take the time to read my posts over multiple times to look for errors and such. If I did something like that on an English paper, then I might take you seriously. But correcting me on some advice I'm giving to another player is just dickish.

Go ahead and harp on me starting a sentence with "but".

st fu lol

Underload · Feb 15, 2010

Is that at me or him? I'll pee on your face if it's me.

BACK ON TOPIC, YO

The Milk Monster · Feb 15, 2010

LOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL, look at this guy thinkin' he is a gangster or something.

Thanks Under, much appreciated.

I've been getting a lot more patient with my Snake, I need to work nair into my game more.

How easy is it to grenade out of Pika's chain grab?

Stealth Raptor · Feb 15, 2010

very hard, if done at the right percentages it is impossible to get out. smart pikas will pause between each cg to make sure no nade was dropped. smarter ones will put you on the edge where your nade will fall away harmlessly. for the most part, if they dont get you at the percentages listed, you can get out at certain points, but idk how hard it is for the snake to time it

The Milk Monster · Feb 15, 2010

Hmmm..Darn. I'll be sure to give my friend that hint. I'll test it some more tomorrow. My friend said it can go until about 100% or so, that percent isn't really worry percent yet for Snake, since he's a fatty.

Stealth Raptor · Feb 15, 2010

it ends at 80-90, i believe you can DI and jump out of it after that. you are still close enough to 130, where a good utilt to thunder will kill. always watch out for that, and if you can avoid it you will live a long time, pika has a hard time killing snake early if he cant hit utilt->thunder

Underload · Feb 15, 2010

Yeah, don't get grabbed. Ever. I played a fairly good Pikachu the first few months I was in the scene, and I quickly learned that getting grabbed is very inconvenient and usually deadly. Even if you do get taken to 90, however, it's not the end of the world yet. It's actually quite difficult for Pikachu to get a decent string of hits in against a good Snake. Just learn when to shield, when to roll, and when to spot / air dodge, and just camp twice as hard.

When I was getting grabbed due to my bad habits as Snake (mind you, this was way back in the day), I would just pick a stage with a decent amount of platform space (usually Yoshi's Island Brawl), sit up on top of the platform, and constantly shield drop nades and plant C4s, fullhop detonating the C4 if if they get close. It isn't your job to approach, so make them either commit suicide by running in, or stand back and wait for you. Either one will let you get your composure (aka not get grabbed).

I hope we help at least a little bit

edit: As for dealing with the actual chaingrab, I can tell you this. Hold the control stick out and away from Pikachu while getting fthrow chaingrabbed, and mash jump to see if you can get out. If their timing isn't tight, you might wiggle out of it. Also, mashing at low percents helps. To mash, ideally, you need to be hitting the shoulder buttons, face buttons, and turning the control stick either clockwise or counterclockwise. All at the same time. If you know you're about to get dthrown (even out of the fthrow CG), mash the hell out of B and see if you can buffer a grenade. If you can, then the CG won't last for long, since the Pikachu will either get scared and bail, or get blown up. Either way, you're free.

SamuraiPanda · Feb 15, 2010

6Mizu said:
Here's something recent:
Anther (pikachu) v. Panda (snake)

That was a friendly. Had no idea it was being recorded. We were both ******* around the whole time, and talking to each other, so its probably not the best match for reference

The Milk Monster · Feb 15, 2010

Yeah Under that did help a lot. I kinda' assumed not to get grabbed, but past that, I wasn't sure how to react persay.

Besides like...Battlefield and Smashville, any good CP's? Maybe like Brinstar or Delfino?

Underload · Feb 15, 2010

Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Japes (in theory)

But besides those two, you want stages with lots of transformations, to theoretically break the CGs.

The Milk Monster · Feb 15, 2010

Makes sense. I could see Japes, and YI never seems like a "bad" choice.

So either of the Stadiums would be nice too. Hmm...Alright, sounds good.

Even though I have some matches up on Youtube, I'll try to get some more soon.

Underload · Feb 15, 2010

I advise you to not pick Delfino. Too many walkoff opportunities, too many to make the transformations worth it.

I think PS1, Yoshi's, Japes (if you adjust your playstyle correctly), and Pictochat are all decent choices. It isn't a bad idea to just go to your most comfortable stage.

The Milk Monster · Feb 15, 2010

I forgot about Pictochat, thats one of my favorite CP's.

So I'll prolly' go Pictochat/YI/PS1.

SamuraiPanda · Feb 15, 2010

FD. Counterintuitive at first, yes, but it forces Pikachu to approach and allows you plenty of space to camp him all day. Its also a large stage, making it harder for him to kill you, and landing the KO on Snake is rather difficult for Pikachu as it is.

Stealth Raptor · Feb 15, 2010

DO NOT PICK DELFINO! trust me terrrrrrrible pick vs pikachu. japes is a good pick vs pikachu, makes it hard for us to kill unless we get a fsmash/ftilt

The Milk Monster · Feb 15, 2010

Yeah Delfino was just kind of a personal CP I use, but Japes and Pictochat seem good.

@Panda
Yeah at first I didn't even give FD a second thought, as it seemed like he could get Snake in the air easier. But in our defense, it is quite large, making it harder to kill us. And Pika < Snake in survivability. (And awesome.)

Personally, I like Brinstar a lot as Snake. Crazy low ceiling for quick utilt kills, potential save from spikes (Lava), the course is dark so it's hard to see the explosives, and there isn't a lot of stage, so it's fairly easy to control it.

SamuraiPanda · Feb 16, 2010

Good point, I completely forgot about Brinstar. It is indeed a great stage against Pikachu, and one of Pika's overall worst stages (as far as I can tell).

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