Character Specific Counterpicks/Bans: Kirby

This will be a list of counterpicks based on characters.

It will be divided into 3 sections:

Stage Strikes :

Counterpicks

Bans

Stages will be

Neutrals:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshis Island
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Castle Siege

Counterpicks:
Frigate Orpheon
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Pictochat
Green Greens
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 2


I will first suggest all 3 sections. Then people will agree/disagree with reasoning, which will be added after the character is done.

HAJIME!

Importance of stage striking/Counterpicking/Bans will be in order from left to right.

IMPORTANT!!!!
Once the MLG stage list is announced, I will be changing everything to that. That means that we will basically start over on all the stages, adding more neutrals (if need be) and CPs. This will make it better for MLG purposes since its an amazingly huge

Spoiler

*****

tournament

COMPLETE:
Bowser:

Stage Strikes: Battlefield, Halberd, Yoshis, Lylat, Delfino Smashville, Frigate, FD

Battlefield is Bowser's 2nd best level overall, so it would be natural to strike it first. Yoshis is the median because it doesn't mess over bowser but it has nothing good for bowser. Lylat can mess up Bowser's recovery and the platforms are awkward for him. Smasvhille and FD are the best for us by far.

Counterpicks: FD, SV, Frigate

FD and SV are flat which is great for CGs. Also, it is very easy to edgeguard bowser on those levels. Frigate is a good overall pikachu stage and it doesn't give bowser any advantages and it is easy to edgeguard with thunder on the right side of the first transformation.

Bans: Brinstar

Overall Pikachu's worst level and bowser's strength makes this level a fear to play on. Ban it straight away.

Expect Bowser's CP, assuming brinstar is banned, will be BF. Expect it


Captain Falcon:


Stage Strikes: Battlefield, Lylat, Yoshis, Delfino, Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 1, Smashville, FD
Platforms can help Falcon's pressure game on both BF and lylat. Yoshis won't mess up anything of yours to mess up and the MU is stupidly in your favor so don't worry. Even though Halberd is amazing for us, watch out for early kills. PS1 is long, so its good for you.

Counterpicks: FD , Smashville, Halberd
Halberd has long places to CG and a low ceiling to help with killing. FD and smashville for CG and nothing to interrupt camping/combo strings and falcon is basically a sitting duck.

Bans: Stage you are most uncomfortable on as a player


Diddy Kong:

Stage Strikes: FD, Battlefield, Castle Siege, Pokemon Stadium 1, Smashville, Lylat, Delfino, Halberd, Yoshi's Island
FD is diddy's best level, so you will strike that. BF's platforms are weird and annoying in this matchup for us. Others aren't strike-worthy, YI is the best neutral for us. Halberd is good for us in the MU, it is one of our CPs.

Counterpicks: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Halberd, Yoshi's Island
RC is Diddy's worst level (They will probably ban it knowing that Brinstar is a bad level for us too) Frigate messes with diddy because of the right side of the first transformation and the little pit in the 2nd transformation. Also, the platform there messes up Banana shenanigans. Halberd is good because it makes killing easier for pikachu while not really helping Diddy kong. Yoshi's is good because the platform messes with Diddy's banana game.

Bans: FD
Diddy's best level.



Donkey Kong:


Stage Strikes: YI, BF, Halberd, Lylat, Castle Siege, Pokemon Stadium 1, Delfino, SV, FD
Yoshi's island and Battlefield aren't just 2 of DKs best neutrals, but they are 2 of his best stages. Yoshis has a trick where DK can up-b from the ledge and be invulnerable the entire time. BF is just good for him because of the platforms. SV and FD are good for us because of CGs, so the match will probably go to lylat.

Counterpicks: FD, SV, Castle Siege, Delfino

FD and SV are explained before. Delfino and Castle Siege are both great pikachu levels, and they both have walkoffs. DK can't really stall in the air to avoid this, but be careful not to get too aggressive or he can stutter step a Forward Smash and send you reeling. Be careful, but you should win on these levels.

Bans: Brinstar or Green Greens

Great level for DK, pretty bad level for us. Just not fun overall...Green Greens has small boundaries so you will explode easily

Falco:


Stage Strikes: BF, Castle Siege, YI, Halberd, Lylat, SV, Delfino, FD
BF is probably Falco's best stage against us (unless Japes is in the set) so strike that first. YI isn't flat, so it can mess with CGs. Lylat messes with Falco's recovery, but the tilting can mess up our CG. SV and FD are our best bet.

Counterpicks: Frigate, Rainbow Cruise, FD
Frigate is horrible for falco. Recovery is stupid here and it can lead to CGs. Falco's up-b isn't good on RC, so if his double jump doesn't make it we can punish really easily. FD has no problems towards whatever we want to do for CG purposes. MMMMM delicious.

Bans: BF (or japes if it is legal)
BF hinders with our CG the most and it is difficult to get to falco because he has platforms to run away on. It can be irritating, but you should never be losing this MU in the first place. (For japes, CG to spike to klap-trap is a combo lol. Ban that stage straight off if it is legal.)


Fox:

Stage Strikes:Halberd, BF, YI, Delfino, Lylat, Castle Siege, Pokemon Stadium 1, SV, FD

Levels with more platforms help fox. Levels with less platforms help us. The less the platforms get in our way, the better we do. Because of this, SV and FD are our best choices. They will probably strike it, so lylat, which is a bad level for fox because of weird recovery glitches, will probably be the neutral. Also, the tilting is so slow and fox falls so fast that it shouldn't interrupt our CGs.

Counterpicks: FD, SV, Lylat

Described above. Assuming the first match is played on Lylat (it should be) and Fox bans FD, you should have SV as a counterpick. Count on it.

Bans: Halberd or Green Greens

Low ceiling = Happy fox. Ban one of them.


Game & Watch


Stage Strikes: BF, Delfino, YI, Lylat, Castle Siege, Halberd, SV, PS1, FD

BF is amazing for G&W pressuring with all the platforms. They also give him a plethora of approaching options while limiting ours. Delfino has very large portions and portions with ver small ceilings. He can camp some of the transformations very well, have a lot of room to bucket-brake, and room to get really early kills coupled with his already ******** killing power. YI's platform disrupts our approaching game so we can only approach him from the ground, but with bair and nair on his side we shouldn't really be doing that. Those are the only bad ones, but SV, Halberd, PS1, and FD are definitely the best. Halberd is mediocre imo since the low ceiling benefits G&W, but it also gives him way less room to bucket-brake. SV, PS1, and FD are all relatively flat. We can take more advantage of the PS1 transformations than G&W can, so it is a good neutral against him.

Counterpicks: FD, PS1, SV, Halberd

Flat = good for pikachu. The less options that are limited with platforms the better. PS1 the platforms are too high to disrupt us, and the lip can catch G&Ws up-b if they don't do it perfectly. Halberd is explained in neutral section.

Bans: Brinstar, RC, Frigate, or Green Greens

Brinstar and RC are two of G&W's best stages. He is really good there. Green Greens allows him to wall infinite, and frigate is just a good level for him. We are screwed when it comes to his CP. Hope you win the first match!~


Ganondorf:
Stage Strikes: BF, Delfino, Halberd, Lylat, YI, PS1, Castle Siege, SV, FD

BF is the only good neutral for Ganon. Delfino and Halberd could cause water spikes/low ceiling mess ups. The simpler the level the better for us.


Counterpicks: FD, SV, Castle Siege

The simpler the level the better. We will win on any counterpick assuming you know how to chaingrab...

Bans: Brinstar, Battlefield, Norfair

Brinstar, along with being a bad level for us, really helps ganon. Ban it. Other than that, you shouldn't have any problems.




Ice Climbers:

Stage Strikes: FD, BF, Halberd, SV, Lylat, Halberd, Yoshis Island, Castle Siege, PS1, Delfino

Flat + non-moving = god for IC. FD is basically a death-wish when fighting IC, so strike/ban that stage right away. Youre more preferable neutrals are ones that move and are large, so PS1, Delfino, and Castle Siege will be your best bet. PS1 also has added amazing because every time the stage transforms it will mess up CGs. Halberd is good for both characters, and while the stage is flying around you can shark under the level. Once it gets to the big part, camp to your hearts content. However, camp smartly. A few ice blocks hitting you will let IC get really really close to you, which is bad for Pikachu.

Counterpicks: Rainbow Cruise, Norfair

Rainbow Cruise's nature of constantly moving is amazing against IC. They can't really do anything. They will most likely ban it. Another great level is norfair. With 5 platforms to camp on and lava sprays/walls/waves/rising all disrupts CGs. IC basically suck on this level.

Bans: FD, BF, SV

Yeah, FD is their best level, so ban that. However, if you have a false bravado on that level, ban SV or BF instead. BF is good to camp because of the platforms, but it can set you up for Uair traps, which can be pretty bad if you are trying to maintain a lead.

Ike:

Stage Strikes: BF, YI, PS1, Halberd, Lylat, Delfino, CS, SV, FD

BF and YI are the worst. Ike + platforms + kinda small = amazing. The platform on YI makes it impossible for pikachu to approach, so once you lose the lead you will have a really hard time getting it back. PS1 has walls and oddly placed platforms, which help Ike WAY more than pikachu. Halberd is tiny and the same issue with the platform, so Ike is good there. Delfino and CS have walk-offs, which is amazing for pikachu. Obviously, the plainer a stage is, the better it is for pikachu, so FD and SV are your best choices. Lylat is neither good nor bad for either character, so expect to go there the first match.

Counterpicks: FD, SV, Rainbow Cruise

Same as before, plainer stages = better against Ike.

Bans: BF, Brinstar, YI
BF is Ike's best level. Even if Brinstar is our worst, we can do more to Ike on Brinstar than BF. He just messes us up there X.X


Jigglypuff:

Stage Strikes: FD, SV, Lylat, BF, Delfino, Castle Siege, Yoshi's, PS1, Halberd


Counterpicks: PS1, Frigate

Bans: Brinstar, Norfair, PS2




King Dedede:

Stage Strikes: BF, Lylat, Halberd, YI, Delfino, PS1, SV, Castle Siege, FD

Flatter is better (For stages, not for women) so you will want FD, Castle Siege, SV, and PS1 as your ideals. BF is D3's best stage in this mu because of the platforms. Lylat is also disruptive with the platform placement. Halberd can let D3 shark you with uair near the ledge and the low ceiling benefits D3 more than pika. YI is flat-ish but it is weird. Delfino has walk-offs, walls, and flat areas, all of which are good for pika.

Counterpicks: Castle Siege, FD, SV

Since flatter/walk-offs are better, these stages are preferred. Common sense as to why.

Bans: BF

Brinstar, the normal ban for pikachu, is a horrible level for D3. It isn't worth how bad pikachu is because D3 is just as bad/worse on the level. BF is the only level you have to worry about.


CURRENT:
Kirby:
ESAM's suggestion

Stage Strikes:Delfino, Halberd, BF, Lylat, YI, PS1, Castle Siege, SV, FD
Counterpicks: SV, Castle Siege, Norfair?
Bans: Brinstar


IN QUEUE
Link:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Lucario:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Lucas:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Luigi:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Mario:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Marth:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Metaknight:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Ness:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Olimar:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Peach:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Pikachu:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Pit:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Pokemon Trainer:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

ROB:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Samus:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Sheik:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Snake:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Sonic:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Toon Link:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

Wario:
Counterpicks
Stage Strikes
Bans

Wolf:
Counterpicks
Stage Strikes
Bans

Yoshi:
Counterpicks
Stage Strikes
Bans

Zelda:
Counterpicks
Stage Strikes
Bans

Zero Suit Samus:
Stage Strikes
Counterpicks
Bans

That's my stage list, and it is for most of the country. It is decided then (because KayLo! is a mod so I should listen to her or i'll get infracted.

Read the beginning of the OP for how my process will go.

our stage lists up here very alot

and ps1 is more frequently neutral than random

and we still have stages like:

Luigis Mansion
Jungle Japes
Pictochat
Pokemon stadium 2

Norfair Occasionally


just perspective

Pikachu ***** Bowser on every stage, get rid of Brinstar for the sake of the lingering hitbox when we fsmash the barrels or sides and the fact that you can't chaingrab there effectively.

Vex Kasrani said:

Pikachu ***** Bowser on every stage, get rid of Brinstar for the sake of the lingering hitbox when we fsmash the barrels or sides and the fact that you can't chaingrab there effectively.

Click to expand...

What about Frigate? Would that work as a Bowser CP?

JayDeth said:

What about Frigate? Would that work as a Bowser CP?

Click to expand...

first part of frigate on the right side lacks a ledge, if you have to upb back to recover from that spot ever, you will be sweetspotted Downb'd by Pikachu, which kills stupid early. The platform in the middle on the second part protects characters vs Bowser imo, Otherwise its okay I guess, but meh, Bowser should go to BF, cause thats his homeland.

Lol, true that. Battlefields are what Bowsers like best. I personally like RC as a CP. It prevents chain grabs and because of how the stage moves it forces your opponent to approach as long as you keep ahead of them.

And plus, who bans RC against Bowser?

KayLo! said:

I dunno if you'd wanna go RC vs. Pika..... I'm not a huge fan of the stage (the magic carpet always screws me over @.@), but we can still camp there, and we're MUCH more mobile than you are.

Click to expand...

It's easier to predict where you're going with the stage moving though.

Thunder kills at wtf percentages there too, especially on the right side as the stage is coming down. Then again, you're strong as ****, but that's where our superior mobility comes in.

Click to expand...

Aslong as you AD away from it, even Bowser can dodge it in the air.

And we can wall lock.

Click to expand...

Anyone can wall lock, so that's kind of a moot point, lol.

Theres temp walls and walk offs, both compliment Pikachu more then Bowser. Bowser doesn't have any stages that put the matchup into his favor, only stages that make it slightly less in Pikachu's favor.

JayDeth said:

Aslong as you AD away from it, even Bowser can dodge it in the air.

Click to expand...

We can combo into thunder, you know. x.o And you're extra fat. It's not impossible for Bowser to airdodge thunder, but it's definitely harder than it is for most characters, and we can always just.... wait for your airdodge.

None of this makes or breaks the stage for the MU, just pointing out reasons why you might want to think twice about bringing Pika to RC.

JayDeth said:

Anyone can wall lock, so that's kind of a moot point, lol.

Click to expand...

I'd argue that it's easier for us to set ours up. Not all wall locks are created equal.

Also:

Vex Kasrani said:

Theres temp walls and walk offs, both compliment Pikachu more then Bowser.

Click to expand...

What he said. You can use these things to your advantage as well, but Pikachu does it better (imo).

So stage strike I was right.

Would Bowser's more than likely (If both stages are available) pick brinstar or Battlefield? BF would be our first strike but what about your CP?

KayLo! said:

We can combo into thunder, you know. x.o And you're extra fat. It's not impossible for Bowser to airdodge thunder, but it's definitely harder than it is for most characters, and we can always just.... wait for your airdodge.

Click to expand...

I AD right when I hear, "PIKA!" I may only play casually, but it's worked out fine for me so far. And lol at Brawl having combos.

But yes, sadly, Bowser is big boned. -_-

ESAM said:

So stage strike I was right.

Would Bowser's more than likely (If both stages are available) pick brinstar or Battlefield? BF would be our first strike but what about your CP?

Click to expand...

I'd probably pick Brinstar, but generally I'm sure we'd pick Battlefield if it's available. Unless your name is MrEh in which case you'll likely find yourself on Yoshi's, lol.

Is there any chance we could add PS1 to the list of neutrals? I know lylat is more common, but PS1 is used occasionally in upstate NY, and I'm sure other regions use it as well.

altairian said:

Is there any chance we could add PS1 to the list of neutrals? I know lylat is more common, but PS1 is used occasionally in upstate NY, and I'm sure other regions use it as well.

Click to expand...

I would rather not. I am garnering to the general, and in general these 5 neutrals are the ones seen the most.

I really don't see how adding an extra neutral changes...anything at all. Only the first 3 or 4 stages in your strike list actually matter, and if you want to appeal to the general case, it would make sense to consider all of the stages that are commonly neutral

I would say the CPs would be FD, SV, and Frigate (in that order)

If the third stage is non neutral you could pick any number of stages, really.

JayDeth said:

If the third stage is non neutral you could pick any number of stages, really.

Click to expand...

Uh....what? I don't understand what you said at all.

I would rather not post PS1 because bowser has silly wall infinited with grab release that could lead to death...same on RC.

Take Falcon to Spear Pillar.

None of us will ever tell!!!!!!!

Simple.

You ban Rainbow Cruise, you counterpick Final Destination or Smashville and you chaingrab.

Good games, guys. Expect us to taunt the entire game we see you and pick Meta Knight next.

A difficult character to CP and Strike. We need help here!

Kaylo, get the diddy's to come in here. You can battle my suggestions, i honestly don't know. I don't play many Diddy's to be honest (No idea how i beat Gnes)

ESAM said:

A difficult character to CP and Strike. We need help here!

Kaylo, get the diddy's to come in here. You can battle my suggestions, i honestly don't know. I don't play many Diddy's to be honest (No idea how i beat Gnes)

Click to expand...

Wait u beat me???

jkjkjk

Yeah, Diddy is a hard one. And also my absolute worst personal matchup. ><

Strikes I would do: FD, SV, BF, Yoshi's, Lylat. I hate Lylat, but I'd suck it up only because of the number of times I've seen a Diddy get completely gimped by the stage. His recovery doesn't seem to like those moving ledges very much.

I think we can all agree to ban the **** out of FD.

Counterpicks...... x.x! RC and Frigate sound like really solid choices, but I honestly don't know. We're definitely gonna need their help for this one.

EDIT: Also, more contributions from the Falcons' social thread:

lordhelmet said:

Don't let them know our weakness!

aka none

Click to expand...

Lionman said:

use chaingrab, it works in every stage

Click to expand...

Lol.

As a Diddy I hate Frigate. A lot. And it seems like Delphino would be good for your recovery and QACing stuff. Just don't get Wall Locked.

FD, is actually not as bad as you'd think if you're a campy Pikachu and have decent exp dealing with Diddy's banana gimmicks.

Pick up Diddy and learn how to naner control

done

Also, QAC is amazingly gay, but diddy kick beats it soooo don't be predictable with it!



Isaccard probably knows this mu better than any of you, so... ask him?

Dekar173 said:

Pick up Diddy and learn how to naner control

done

Also, QAC is amazingly gay, but diddy kick beats it soooo don't be predictable with it!



Isaccard probably knows this mu better than any of you, so... ask him?

Click to expand...

That didn't help. This isn't a Matchup thread, this is a stage thread for specific characters. Where should we ban/strike/cp against diddy?

PS1 ledges shouldn't bother any good Diddy. It was a staple counter pick for me for a bit.

Than someone realized if the edge hog me on the left side during the windmill 70% of the time they'd take my stock, and I was too lazy to learn to aim to not hit the windmill itself.

So what you're saying is....it's not a bad counterpick against diddy

Yeah. Actually.

Alot of Diddy's are comfortable there though. So it's not a great CP either.

Assuming Diddy bans either RC/Brinstar(my usual bans) Frigate is less than great. Halberd's low ceiling can be a detriment to him cause of his weight(although i don't mind the stage to be honest). YI I hate, HATE. And Delphino seems like a decent pick as long as you can avoid getting Locked of walk offs and into walls.