Matchup Re-Discussion: Mr. Game & Watch

KayLo! · Feb 12, 2010

Pikachu vs. Mr. Game & Watch
( Link to central matchup thread. )

Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 41:59 in G&W's favor
Can we CG him?: No

Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186130
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 35:65 in G&W's favor, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174763

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
G&W Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189251

Summary:

In progress.

KayLo! · Feb 12, 2010

Before discussion starts, I'd like to point out that the G&Ws have the Pikachu MU as 65:35 in their favor.

Now, I don't know if that's EXTREMELY outdated info or something, but...... wtf???? It's a hard matchup, but I don't think it's that hard by any means.

I'll wait 'til we discuss it a bit before I invite them, though.

KayLo! · Feb 17, 2010

....Nobody's got anything for G&W?

Pikabunz · Feb 17, 2010

Need to get Anther in here. He's like the only Pika that plays G&W (NoJ). Well, I do too, but I got nothing. :x

KayLo! · Feb 17, 2010

How do you have nothing if you play against a G&W? :dizzy:

Anyways.

My crewmate uses G&W a lot in doubles..... not really too helpful, but I'll do a write-up of what I can think of. In the meantime, I'll invite the G&Ws and see if they can start us off.

Pikabunz · Feb 17, 2010

I always lose in that MU. If you want help on how to lose in this MU, I'll be glad to help. I'll try to get Anther in here.

KayLo! · Feb 17, 2010

Even if you lose the MU a lot, you can still contribute..... unless you're getting 3 stocked every time, you have to be doing some things that work.

That, or you can write a list of what not to do, which is still kinda helpful. =P

Pikabunz · Feb 17, 2010

Alrighty, I'll try to come up with something.

Roller · Feb 17, 2010

Don't get baired. 'nuf said.

A2ZOMG · Feb 17, 2010

The main question is how you're going to kill G&W, since he's at a rather significant advantage at doing that with 2-3 fairly quick aerials that can be used for kills (F-air, D-air, and U-air in order of effectiveness), 1-2 aerials that can potentially combo into a Smash/U-tilt (N-air and U-air, maaaaaybe B-air if the grounded hit somehow didn't connect), yeah. So Pikachu has...N-air and Up-smash. N-air is good and can be used in approach tactics but has to remain fresh and be used at relatively high percents. U-smash is fairly powerful but not that safe, and not simple to set up into at high percents. F-smash is telegraphed but might work if you predict a significant spacing mistake, and I guess that's the jist of what matters.

This is a matchup where it really isn't worth trying to ledge pressure with projectiles, because obviously he can just absorb them with the Bucket, and there isn't a whole ton you can do to followup.

Otherwise I don't think there is much else that really stands out about this matchup.

6/4 G&W.

King~ · Feb 18, 2010

^

Up smash, nair, Foward smash, down smash-thunder, up smash-thunder(he gets to the top of the screen before hes outta hitstun, just gotta be quick about it), hell if im patient uptilt at like 150%.

i have nothing to contribute as eveytime i play GnW i get mixed feelings, 6-4 at worst imo

Anther · Feb 18, 2010

GW becomes a better matchup for you the more control you have over your Pika. If you're not used to how far you're forced to dash before you shield, or make laggy mistakes and such, us pikas will die at very low percents to silly predictable moves. That's how I used to lose to GW a lot early on. You kinda have to play a bit more defensively in this matchup, and go with the MK method of Spacing Fsmashes when it comes down to it. You're not really allowed to use Tjolts in this matchup unless they're in a position that'll make them worse off (Recovering low.. or high percent)... and those are the moments to use them.

I don't really know what to say that I haven't said before about this matchup though... and what I feel like everyone knows. It's winnable, he's slowish in my mind, but if you're quick and on top of his spacing... good stuff can.. happen...? XD

Pika_Cam · Feb 18, 2010

If you have filled up the bucket already, spam tjolt like a beast. They won't know what to do XD

Frio · Feb 18, 2010

When I vs GaW I mainly focus on a few things. Imo GaW does't have that great of an approach game. He's going to come at you with Back airs or forwards airs from the ground or he'll approach from the air with down air. With that said you shold play defensivly like anther said and look for an opening. We can use Pikaslide F smashes and auto canceled down airs for spacing. I wouldn't recomend f air due to it giving GaW more ways to punish it. Remeber that GaWs Bair has that extra hit at the end that we can punish. So long as we play defensivly and take care to spacing you should be ok on the ground. We just have to find an opening to abuse and quick damage in. One position you never want to be in when vsing GaW is being above him in the air, especially on stages that has platforms. He'll be able to keep us up there with U air and rack up damage with his N-air. you just have to be patient in this match up, you can just charge in there with ariel attacks or you'll get punished. I think most of us find this match up hard because we can't use our projectile to provoke our opponent. Also if you aren't strong at QaC the pikachu player shouldn't attempt it. GaW thrives off punishing stupid laggy mistakes. If GaW starts to D air rush you can sheild and grab, or maybe thunder (Not recomended, only if the GaW is realy predictable). Finally GaW bucket breaking Safes him from dying horizontally. However, he can still die vertically at avg percents.

TL:DR version

-Space and be patient, find the GaW's opening and abuse it
-Do not get above him unless you're willing to take damage
-For the love of God don't spam T jolts. It may be acceptable to use them as GaW tries to short hop f or B air towards you
-Don't rush in with ariel moves. gaW will just out prioritize your move or sheild and punish. Rushing in will most likely send you to your death if you're in the 90-999%. (hello U smash/fsmash/D smash).
-Don't use QaC if you aren't really confident with it. GaW thrives off punishing stupid and laggy mistakes. Also don't use D smash a lot because if you miss he will punish you.
-GaW dies vertically at avg percents. Bucket braking stops him from dying horizontally untill high high %s. Try not to stale your U smash. Don't be predictable with your thunder.

I don't know what my advice is worth but I tried >_>

Pika_Cam · Feb 18, 2010

I'm sorry but I disagree with you Frio. G&W is great at approaching. Even if you consider turtle to be the only good approach, it really is all G&W needs for approaching, much like Snake with ftilt.

A2ZOMG · Feb 18, 2010

From what I can tell with what little exp I have against Pikachu, G&W is probably going to approach you with D-tilt and N-air, since a good Pikachu is REALLY ANNOYINGLY HARD TO CHASE DOWN.

Well yeah he can throw out F-air/B-air if you're in position to I guess, and all his aerials are very effective for edgeguards too.

DMG · Feb 18, 2010

55:45 G&W. 6:4 on a few of his CP's.

~ Gheb ~ · Feb 18, 2010

No it's actually even if you camp hard and Hit & Run a lot.

DMG · Feb 18, 2010

you say that about... like every matchup in existence.

In the other character's favor lol.

Pika_Cam · Feb 18, 2010

Gheb_01 said:
No it's actually even if you camp hard and Hit & Run a lot.

Lol. Yes, let's immediately fill up his bucket.

I'll agree on the hit and run tactics though.

TheHebrewHammer · Feb 18, 2010

60-40 GaW. Z and I play a lot together since we live close to eachother, and he'll probably back me up. I lol@ people who think GaWs only approach is bair.

-GaW can bucket Tjolts killing pika at any percent.
-GaW ***** pikas who QaC. Since GaWs move have more priority over it. At high percents if you see a pattern of QaC you should be upairing the pika to send him into free fall animation for a free smash.
-GaW is light will die to Pika Usmash at 116% if not DIed properly. U smash to thunder kills GaW early and GaW can't pull out the bucket in time, because of hit stun.

Pikachu can do dthrow to Nair (true combo) till around 50 percent, or fthrow to usmash works at low percents.

Although GaW can be easily telegraphed, I don't think Pika has that many options to do anything about it. Playing patient against GaW can make this a better MU possibly, but I think this is 60-40 in GaWs favor.

KayLo! · Feb 18, 2010

Rollerking540 said:
Don't get baired. 'nuf said.

x.o That's '08 mentality, my boy. G&W has much more than bair that can screw Pika over.

Frio said:
Imo GaW does't have that great of an approach game.

This is the one thing that kinda bothered me with your post..... G&W doesn't need a stellar approach game since he can zone Pikachu out + we can't even camp him because of the bucket.

Bair alone is enough to outspace us (not to mention quickly wear down our tiny shield), but he also has dtilt, dair, and nair, all of which are safe for him on shield with proper spacing, I believe.

Gheb_01 said:
No it's actually even if you camp hard and Hit & Run a lot.

Not sure if you were being serious, but: camp no, hit and run yes.

@Gheb & DMG: Care to elaborate a bit more on your posts? Short and sweet is good, but reasons that back up your claims are even better. =X

TheHebrewHammer said:
-GaW ***** pikas who QaC. Since GaWs move have more priority over it. At high percents if you see a pattern of QaC you should be upairing the pika to send him into free fall animation for a free smash.

Everything ***** QAC (it's extremely low priority), so that's not really G&W-specific..... I'd hope that any good Pika wouldn't be QAC'ing predictably enough to be getting hit by anything. ><

The uair thing is interesting, though..... do you mean uairing a regular QA or a QAC? QAC is generally grounded by the time it's anywhere near you, so you wouldn't be able to pull off a uair like that (or if you could, the hitbox would hit Pika first, bringing him out of his freefall animation).

Maybe I'm confused about what you mean.

In any case, I agree with playing this matchup extremely defensively..... you really have to look for openings where G&W lags and punish them. Very hit-and-run and requires a lot of patience, but it's the only way to do it; if you rush in, his superior range and priority will eat you alive.

Bad spacing on his part will be your saving grace, because G&W does lag quite a bit on some of his moves.... but with proper spacing, shield stun/push will keep him safe. Badly spaced bairs, dairs, and whiffed grabs are all very punishable, though.

He kills earlier and tends to live longer, but like someone else said, you should go for vertical kills to make things a bit easier for yourself. If you can sneak in a slightly charged fsmash mindgame here or there, those'll kill him pretty early as well. (Someone mentioned Pikasliding..... reverse stutter stepping works too.)

A few quick notes:

- Watch your shield. G&W has a lot of good shield pokes, and bair/nair in particular will diminish your shield very quickly. If it's getting small, don't be afraid to run away.... he's not fast and doesn't have a great projectile, so he can't chase you down.

- Tech his dthrow. Common knowledge but should be mentioned for people not familiar with the matchup.

- Don't OD on spotdodges. A lot of his moves (bair, fsmash, nair, dtilt, dair....) are spotdodge eaters because of their laggy/multihit hitboxes.

- Don't tech roll into him. You're begging to feel a fully charged usmash. Teching is always a gamble regardless, but I find that rolling away is usually safer as long as you mix in other reactions to keep yourself from getting predictable.

I dunno, G&W has a solid game on us, but I think our speed and ability to get in quick bursts of damage are enough to make this not a **** matchup. We also have two fairly good vertical killers. Just play patiently and know what you can and can't punish to avoid rushing in at the wrong moments.

40:60 G&W, imo.

Anybody have any stage suggestions? Where to go, what to avoid?

This is one MU where I actually don't like PS1. =\

~ Gheb ~ · Feb 18, 2010

People should keep in mind that "camping" doesn't equal "spamming Tjolt". It is possible to camp with no projectile at all. Mobility and flexibility are huge factors for camping hence Wario and MK being good at camping with no freely usable projectile. Pikachu can do this fairly well too - throwing out quick aerials while staying very mobile in almost any given situation is a huge reason why Pikachu can deal with G&W perfectly fine.

G&Ws shield pokes are flat out overrated. There are so many ways for Pikachu to beat the turtle - I have no idea how people still have troubles with that move. Just shield the first 5 hits of the turtle, powershield the landing hitbox and then get in close to ****. If that's to hard to do then you can also run a bit away from the turtle and then try to trade hits with fsmash. Or - if you are in the air - you can jump away out of it's range on Tjolt him safely during the animation.
There are many ways to deal with that move and without it G&W is basically restricted to play the bait and punish game. This is certainly one of the match-up's that requires lots of patience but there's no situation in which Pikachu doesn't have a good response to what G&W can do. I have played G&W long enough in the past to know that this character is nowhere near as good as people believe.

If you're playing the match-up right, G&W has no reliable kill move unless he safes his fair which is extremely impractical as it's one of his very few good OoS options against Pikachu. All of G&Ws KO moves are slow, predictable and are mainly used on the ground. If you don't do anything stupid (aka dash towards him, approach when you have the lead) there is little G&W can kill you with. If you're at ~100% you can spam your shield as much as you want (if you know how to punish his bair) - his grab and his throws are pretty useless as they neither KO nor set up a KO. If Pikachu has the lead you are free the run, bait and wait for the opening to get the usmash. G&Ws KO moves are powerful but extremely impractical, which is the exact opposite of Pikachu. Pika might lack a powerful KO move but there are so many more opportunities to get fsmash, usmash or downB than any of G&Ws KO moves that there's no way that G&W kills better.

...

Man, posting huge posts is annoying. One-liners is a lot easier. <_<

KayLo! · Feb 18, 2010

I wouldn't call what Pikachu does camping..... it's just running around, hehe. Realistically, neither character forces an approach from the other (which is what camping is meant to do), but G&W is safer in that he can, as I mentioned before, zone Pika out pretty effectively as long as he's not throwing out badly spaced moves. He's got range/priority on us, so unless you're getting baited like crazy, you can play just as patiently as we can -- except slightly better.

As for G&W's shield pokes being overrated, the fact is that Pikachu's shield is relatively small. It'd be great if we had a nice big shield that could eat multiple bairs/nairs/etc., but we don't. Even with shield tilting, your moves pose a minor threat. Nothing big, just enough to watch out for it.

I also disagree with Pika's kill moves being easy to land.

Although I can agree with G&W's KO moves maybe being overestimated in their effectiveness, I'd still argue that you guys tend to kill earlier and overall better.

& yeah, long posts are annoying to write, but thanks for the input.

It's much appreciated! Especially since you seem to have a slightly different POV than most people..... always nice to hear opposing thoughts.

Pikabunz · Feb 18, 2010

G&W can tech chase with upsmash out of a dthrow. There is no guaranteed escape for Pika cause of his terrible roll. :/

King~ · Feb 18, 2010

lol i was just bout to say camping =/= T-jolt camping

oh well missed that opprotunity =/

KayLo! · Feb 18, 2010

Yeah, you're extra slow. But see: my first paragraph in response to that.

King~ · Feb 18, 2010

oh i saw it, i just disagreed with it slightly

come on you know me

KayLo! · Feb 18, 2010

True, Mr. "But Marth's not that bad!!!!!"

You're so weird when it comes to MUs, lol.

A2ZOMG · Feb 19, 2010

Silly Gheb, as if every G&W just throws out buffered SH B-airs all the time for approaching. That's like so 2008. He's probably going to do that only for punishing out of shield. If he has a brain on how to approach, you're NOT powershielding the landing hitbox when he B-airs.

I'd like to know how Pikachu is killing with F-smash or Thunder easily when F-smash is blockable on reaction AND requires a sweetspot in close range, and when Thunder requires G&W to have horrible DI. U-smash is almost easy to land but reeeeealy unsafe and requires a sweetspot. G&W can kill with three of his aerials, two of his aerials can legit combo into Smashes. Stale moves is not a huge problem for this character when he has a solid Jab cancel and a gdlk U-air and Up-B for refreshing his other moves.

K Prime, is it really true that G&W can punish a techroll with Up-smash? I wasn't aware.

altairian · Feb 19, 2010

Yes, sadly it's true that G&W can tech chase pika out of dthrow with usmash. I think if we tech the dthrow then you can't get the usmash, but if we miss the tech then we're pretty effed

KayLo! · Feb 19, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
I'd like to know how Pikachu is killing with F-smash or Thunder easily when F-smash is blockable on reaction AND requires a sweetspot in close range, and when Thunder requires G&W to have horrible DI.

The same way Pika hits anybody with fsmash..... its slow startup isn't anything new, lol. Note that nobody said it was easy (dunno where you got that from). Killing with Pika is often a bit of a struggle, especially against superior range.

But fsmash is a solid way to punish landings, and it's our only ground move that outranges G&W. The tip doesn't kill, but it sends people straight up, which is an unconventional but effective setup for thunder at high percentages (because of hitstun).

Forward/reverse stutter stepping, Pikaslide/autocanceled aerial spacing, and good old fashioned punishment are generally how we're going to be landing fsmash.

As strong as G&W is, he's also telegraphed and not exactly speedy. Yes, he kills better, but Pikachu is extremely mobile and can work around his potential killers, so the KO advantage isn't quite as large as I feel you're making it out to be.

Pikabunz · Feb 20, 2010

A fresh fthrow to usmash is guaranteed from 0 to 31% on G&W. Dthrow to nair/utilt/usmash are never guaranteed. Dthrow just sends him way too high for any of those follow ups to work.

PZ · Feb 20, 2010

MGW's bair ***** us alot. Spaced fairs are hard to deal with. Fsmash is his best kill move cuz it has another hitbox still sitting there. Dsmash is good too but only if it sends you up.
Usmash is a problem in dthrow tech chases. Ftilt is bad as i see it but watch out for it still. Dtilt has a neverending frame which is hard to deal with. Nair=****. Uair can put you in a bad location. Dair is a move you dont wanna try to beat. Side b is.................well............random but WATCH OUT STILL! Down b stops camping cold until its full. Up b well that is a great recovery move good luck.

Our advantages: qac, easy stage mobility, fsmash and nair good kill moves, OOS options aka dair/nair(i like to use uair also OOS), and i think mgw is lighter than pikachu.

MU: 40:60 MGW's favor
Thats all i got.

linkisthebest123 · Feb 22, 2010

When GW is at high percentages I like to bait a bucket and run in for the up smash, because gw has so much lag time after he buckets a projectile, it usually results in a kill. (90+ percent or so). And if you do this once each life, he wont ever get bucket, but its always dangerous on the last life, because he has already 2 of his 3 buckets full, and if he gets that 3rd one without punishment... O_O you better hope he ****s up his oil spill, or else your screwed. This is one of my least favorite MUs. along with mk and diddy.

BrokenBrawler · Mar 26, 2010

60:40 in GW's favor. Spam t jolt until his bucket is full then he'll most likely go for a bucket you should know situations it could be used in such as an approach and out of block. Bait the bucket by approaching with jolt and punish accordingly. Overall you should stay grounded and use d-tilt and f-tilt to space him out. Def is a winnable match up just avoid his aireals and stay out the sky.
PS. oh and if you get hit with the bucket your dead

gamesuxcard · Mar 26, 2010

di dem aerials.

ha ha kaylo calm down, if you can make posts strictly talking about your post count I can make a post about one tip for a matchup.

anyway, I was typing this up when you infracted me:
Kaylo, I don't want to give you the wrong idea. I hate this mathup. It's really, really boring. (in response to you being all LUL WHY LIKE THIS MATCHUP in the other thread) Duffman rapeeed me last time I played him in tourney. The matchup is honestly about punshing moves that gaw is already doing. GDub has an answer to anything you could try to be agressive with. Play where you feel comfortable, stay away from being on top platforms. If you're feeling like a manly man predict his upb. Early percents on other characters where we try to fthrow to usmash is replaced in this matchup with fthrow to his up b, if you're confidant in a read of his up quick attack to the trajectory and thunder, or even just run infront of his trajectory point and double jump a bair. But gaw can read us too. When he's off the stage and way below us, throw sparks, if he buckets one you can throw another and he'll have to bucket it, too. There's so much lag on the second bucket nom he'll fall to his death/you can edge guard in time to get the kill. If you're worried about him filling a bucket later save this for his last stock, but don't feel scared to do it on the first one. the third input has a lot of lag too so you can save that for the next time he's stuck down there. make gaw approach you, learn to sheild his bair, drop, powersheild the last hit and punish. DON'T QUACK ABOVE HIM BECAUSE HE UAIRS YOU OUT OF IT AND YOU GET F***ED. unless you're trading a hit for the cost of getting grabbed it's not worth getting in too close for the rest of getting grabbed, gaw can do too much to us from a tech chase. qac along the ground if you see an opening, and learn qac locks (sounds dumb but i jump with uairs off the ground a lot for this matchup, if you're ever at a specific angle where that footstool is possible there's not reason not to abuse it).

honestly, i play diddy for this douche, but i'm lameee

KayLo! · Mar 27, 2010

If you have an issue with an infraction, you can always PM me or make a post in Forum Support.

In any case, it's nice to see more detailed input..... it's much more helpful! You get an e-cookie for editing, but the 1 point isn't going anywhere.

gamesuxcard · Mar 27, 2010

I'm not trying to suck up to you to try to remove a demerit from my internet report card I was trying nicely to point our your hypocrosy. and if I get an infraction for this it will just strengthen it. <3

Wilmenz · Oct 28, 2010

No one has mentioned Mr. G&W's Jab> Bucket... Its a true combo

Matchup Re-Discussion: Mr. Game & Watch

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