Matchup Re-Discussion: Luigi

KayLo! · Feb 12, 2010

Pikachu vs. Luigi
( Link to central matchup thread. )

Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 47:53 in Luigi's favor
Can we CG him?: No

Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230891
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: None.

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
Luigi Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175652

Summary:

In progress.

Urban Menace · Feb 13, 2010

53:47? To me this is one of pikachu's harder matchups. Luigi has like a 2 frame jab and it links to alot of his moves I believe. He has good aerials and shoryuken....Spotdodging = death lol. Powerful smashes as well. In my opinion Luigi is always under rated. I played Boss at my first tournament and....lol. I think i spotdodged vs Boss and he just walked up and shoryukened me. I might be wrong about the ratio, etc in terms of the matchup difficulty. However i see it as a hard matchup. My opinion my not be that important in terms of being a pikachu player, etc but I mean no one else posted so I thought I would put in my garbz 2 cents lol >_< .

KayLo! · Feb 13, 2010

Always feel free to contribute! Even if you don't have a ton of experience, your opinion opens up discussion and gets you involved. Besides, you probably know more than you think you do.

My random thoughts on the MU:

Even though his jab is fast, our ground game still beats Luigi's, imo. Most of his jab combos can be avoided by proper SDI, which is really important if you don't want to get jab > Shoryuken'd. Dtilt, fsmash, and grabs work well while you're on the ground.

As for spotdodging.... well, spotdodging predictably at close range is something you shouldn't do vs. any character, so that was probably a case of you abusing it to the point where he could easily read you. Still a good warning for others, though!

In the air is where Luigi gives us the most trouble..... his aerials beat ours, and his laggy *** boot (nair) is a legitimate combo breaker when used with good DI on his part -- it comes out on frame 3. I try to stay grounded as much as possible in this matchup, or if I'm in the air, I stay underneath him to land uairs.

His tornado goes straight through tjolts, so be wary of camping at mid-range, especially since the last hit will pop you into the air (which is bad) if you don't DI out of it. If he tornadoes while you're grounded, just shield it and punish its horrible end lag.

Be.... really, really careful when recovering vs. Luigi. Skull Bash is generally a bad idea, because if I'm not mistaken, his bair will always beat it. Maybe his nair too, but I'm less sure about that one. QA also has horrible priority (as always), so combined with how laggy his nair hitbox is, your best bet is to just QA around him.

I dunno much about edgeguarding Luigi (my edgeguard game is pretty garbage atm.... still working on it), but if he has to tornado for vertical height when he's forced to recover low, he'll usually end up lagging above the ledge. Punish that.

He has more killing power, but his KO moves seem to be ~equally as hard to land as ours if both sides know what to watch out for. Fsmash and up b hurt the most, but barring bad DI out of his jab combos, he'll have to rely on predicting a roll/spotdodge/bad tech choice to land either one of them. His aerials are strong too, but none of them jump to mind as being overpowered enough to kill especially early.

Our camp beats his. The only thing you have to watch out for, like I said, is his tornado, but if it comes to a camp war..... we'll win.

For stage CPs, I like Frigate and PS1. Dunno what I'd ban.... probably Brinstar just because I hate the stage so much. *shrug*

Urban Menace · Feb 13, 2010

lol I hear brinstar is actually pretty good for pikachu. Yeah I like frigate for cping luigi as well. In terms of ground game, are we using dtilt more since it is safe on sheild? Also, doesnt Luigi's back air cancel tjolts? One more question: Is it totally true that Luigi doesn't have very reliable approaches?

Syko_Lemming · Feb 15, 2010

Luigi approaches with aerials, so I usually sheild and hit him with back with a bair, it's not always the safest if you miss, but it comes out fast and can hit them if they try to airdodge to the ground.
He juggles really well at low damage, but I don't think they're guarenteed, becuase I find that jumping and airdodging out works half the time.

Luigi can punish really well with downsmash, and it can also kill.

He can taunt spike your skull bash if you're trying to recover, but you can go low enough to avoid it.

When he's off the edge and is low enough to have to do a tornado, wait until he finishes then jump up and nair him back off.

~Radiance~ · Feb 16, 2010

Ok, first time really posting in an MU discusion but....

As for weegee on stage, yeah in the air is bad news bears (not to be confused wth the smasher) his bair can be decieving so be careful when u see him facing away from u in the air, idk how many times ive tried to fair him and ate 2 big *** plumber boots. Also be careful of his nair as ppl have said b4. its hitbox lingers and will kill at high %'s startng around 130's typically.

His moves also autocancel like a boss, so watch out for him when hes done doing arials, imo, when hes in the air and is trying to shield poke, get back, just space wth ur dtilt or fsmash, cuz he can attack on a dime after doing his arials.

please please please please PLEASE be careful when he gets in close because if you eat that greasy italian palm (fsmash) even wth proper DI u can be dead at around 80% if you're near the ledge. space on the ground, stay away from the air unless you are under him

As for when luigi is offstage, this is where things get a bit easier. Personally, i like to implement ESAM's "quintuple thunder" tech when luigi is trying to get back onstage. Honestly thunder shuts down luigis recover if done well. if you are feeling like u can, a solid off stage second jump to nair works, but make sure you are underneath him since his arials are godly anywhere else.

Luigi also has a spamable projectile which he may or may not camp wth. One of the weegees i play camps that crap like he's on a 3 day backpacking expedition to Yosemite. Our projectile gets canceled out, but it can hop through occasionally so u can really outcamp him if hes just gonna sit there and camp. Dont let the camper force you to approach, his fireballs dont outrange out tjolts and even tho he can get more fireballs in than we can jolts, u can win a camp war with this depressed neglected plumber.

and last but not least, the obvious. mix it up, autocancel ur dairs, into dtilts or ftilts or anything. If you dont know what you'll do next, neither will your opponent. as put by anther, "Take whatever you are thinking you will do, and do the opposite"

link to ESAMS Quintuple Thunder vid *yes i realize it has been around for a while* (srsly folks, this works well against luigi) ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeSlOCmR46A&feature=related

mib004 · Feb 16, 2010

KayLo! said:
Always feel free to contribute! Even if you don't have a ton of experience, your opinion opens up discussion and gets you involved. Besides, you probably know more than you think you do.

My random thoughts on the MU:

Even though his jab is fast, our ground game still beats Luigi's, imo. Most of his jab combos can be avoided by proper SDI, which is really important if you don't want to get jab > Shoryuken'd. Dtilt, fsmash, and grabs work well while you're on the ground.

As for spotdodging.... well, spotdodging predictably at close range is something you shouldn't do vs. any character, so that was probably a case of you abusing it to the point where he could easily read you. Still a good warning for others, though!

In the air is where Luigi gives us the most trouble..... his aerials beat ours, and his laggy *** boot (nair) is a legitimate combo breaker when used with good DI on his part -- it comes out on frame 3. I try to stay grounded as much as possible in this matchup, or if I'm in the air, I stay underneath him to land uairs.

His tornado goes straight through tjolts, so be wary of camping at mid-range, especially since the last hit will pop you into the air (which is bad) if you don't DI out of it. If he tornadoes while you're grounded, just shield it and punish its horrible end lag.

Be.... really, really careful when recovering vs. Luigi. Skull Bash is generally a bad idea, because if I'm not mistaken, his bair will always beat it. Maybe his nair too, but I'm less sure about that one. QA also has horrible priority (as always), so combined with how laggy his nair hitbox is, your best bet is to just QA around him.

I dunno much about edgeguarding Luigi (my edgeguard game is pretty garbage atm.... still working on it), but if he has to tornado for vertical height when he's forced to recover low, he'll usually end up lagging above the ledge. Punish that.

He has more killing power, but his KO moves seem to be ~equally as hard to land as ours if both sides know what to watch out for. Fsmash and up b hurt the most, but barring bad DI out of his jab combos, he'll have to rely on predicting a roll/spotdodge/bad tech choice to land either one of them. His aerials are strong too, but none of them jump to mind as being overpowered enough to kill especially early.

Our camp beats his. The only thing you have to watch out for, like I said, is his tornado, but if it comes to a camp war..... we'll win.

For stage CPs, I like Frigate and PS1. Dunno what I'd ban.... probably Brinstar just because I hate the stage so much. *shrug*

ban BF..................................................................

Famous · Feb 16, 2010

Yes, BF is where the **** happens...Luigi's platform game is amazing...

3 Things not to do against a good Luigi
1. Don't Roll
2. Dont Spotdodge
3. Dont choose BF, lol

I have no clue how to explain the MU from a pika's point of view but from luigis the only problem I have against pikachu is counterattacking after shielding...Most of pikas moves knock us back due to our traction...

Also, thundershock camping doesn't seem work due to the fact that we can approach with tornado and jab...When it hits our tornado it gets cancelled out allowing us to do a move laglessly afterwards...

As for a stage cp, I have no clue but PS1 would seem like pikas best bet...Pika can take advantage of the terrain change and could also pull off some ******** stagespikes on PS1 weird ledges..

The last pika I played was pikapika but I don't really remember how he fought me...I remember DownSmash, lol...

Kenny you don't count since I played you in doubles...Lucas+Pika is a ******** team...I should have went Mario

Sorry for the wall of text...I hope this helped some

zhao_guang · Feb 16, 2010

Syko_Lemming said:
Luigi approaches with aerials, so I usually sheild and hit him with back with a bair, it's not always the safest if you miss, but it comes out fast and can hit them if they try to airdodge to the ground.
He juggles really well at low damage, but I don't think they're guarenteed, becuase I find that jumping and airdodging out works half the time.

Luigi can punish really well with downsmash, and it can also kill.

He can taunt spike your skull bash if you're trying to recover, but you can go low enough to avoid it.

When he's off the edge and is low enough to have to do a tornado, wait until he finishes then jump up and nair him back off.

me and this fool had a good amount of matches at our last tournament in this match-up if you guys want to me to post them. they're very recent and we both know what we're doing...to an extent of course ;P

hippiedude92 · Feb 16, 2010

i think its 5/5 I've played with Ron before at wes's smashfest we went usually even... though personally thinking maybe 53:47 pika or 55:45 pika alot more than luigi can do.

this is pretty much stardard camping thing and spacing (like always against luigi lol) pika should be keeping luigi away from getting inside with tjolts, running away with QAC and ulitizing his speed and for the love of god, don't be dumb and always challenge luigi to the air, because you'll get nair if you don't space properly.

in theory its really hard for luigi to land kill moves (iunno about Pikachu, but l think so it applies as well but maybe pika has easier time imo)

luigi shouldnt be gimping pikachu too much, but more like the other way because pikachu has ALOT of tools to deal with luigi's ****ty recovery, you should use thunder to make a wall since luigi's aerial movement is 2nd worst in the game, throw out some tjolts.

pikachu should be looking for big flat stages like ps1 as said before, FD so you can camp and give luigi a harder time getting inside, ban anything with platforms/small stages it'll give him easier time to get inside, and bypass some of pikachu's camping.

pikachus a fun character i wish i main'd him and second'd luigi lol /random.

CR4SH · Feb 16, 2010

I don't find it hard to land kill moves on pikachu at all. Alot of his ground game is very punishable. If you shield a dsmash you can land a fsmash, if you spot dodge a running grab you can get an up b.

Plus pika doesn't really have an attack aerial with the quickness or priority to really escape a juggle trap, so you're left to play the airdodge game (for the most part).

Pika's biggest advantage seems to be his projectile gimping game. Any time luigi is offstage two or three hits should be almost guaranteed.

Terios the Hedgehog · Feb 16, 2010

I just kinda camp him. I find it REALLY hard to reliably approach Weegee without projectiles/abusing disjoints i.e. Pika's Fsmash makes me pretty telegraphed. :C That stupid Nair stops my Utilt to uair/nair combos and MY nair doesn't tend to break his juggling all that well.

Yonder · Feb 16, 2010

hippiedude92 said:
pikachus a fun character i wish i main'd him and second'd luigi lol /random.

How could you even think of betraying poor Luigi like that :o

Personally, Pikachu's the least fun character in the game and also my least used according to my records, never liked him in Smash >_<

ScAtt77 · Feb 16, 2010

Imo, this mu is 50:50 All of Luigi's aerials and his jab beat out t-jolt and QA. Like everyone has said before, abuse thunder. If Luigi has to use his cyclone off stage, gg. It puts Luigi in a bad position nearly every time he gets hit by it. Pikachu isn't really that bad on the ground, but a well spaced d-tilt can give him a little bit of trouble.

BSP · Feb 16, 2010

Pika should really spam t jolts to keep Luigi out, and don't go in the air since Luigi owns the air. Stay on the ground, and force the approach. Like Boss said, don't spotdodge or roll next to Luigi, he kills at ******** percents. I haven't looked at the jab followup guide in a while, but unless Luigi has true combos from jab on pika, jumpng away would probably be the best option since Luigi is pretty slow. Pika's fsmash should be safe on block if spaced due to Luigi's lul traction, but don't spam it of course. Stay on the ground.

Offstage, thunder really causes him trouble, and Pika should be able to pull off a gimp.

hippiedude92 · Feb 17, 2010

luigi's only real followups after a jab is : jab 1 to a Dsmash/Dtilt/Ftilt and prolly jab cancels that's about it. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199907bo

everything else pikachu should di away.

@ yonder, lol pikachu's a really fun character imo, i always wanted to main him, but the learning curve is so much work plus pika's heavily underrated.

TreK · Feb 17, 2010

We can jab-upB if we interrupt a QA, though. it's the 3rd jump glitch =V

Just don't DI our jab upward, pikas ;V

KayLo! · Feb 17, 2010

Thanks for the contributions, guys! Luigis put in work..... I love it. <3

mib004 said:
ban BF..................................................................

Famous said:
Yes, BF is where the **** happens...Luigi's platform game is amazing...

Thanks, hehe. I know his platform game is really good, but I didn't know BF was such an insta-ban. I'll definitely keep that in mind.

Maybe somebody should've told Chibo that before he got his *** whooped by you, Matt..... lol.

Yonder said:
Personally, Pikachu's the least fun character in the game and also my least used according to my records, never liked him in Smash >_<

Blasphemy!!!

Okay, so it's looking like people think the matchup is evenish but more in Pika's favor than Luigi's if anything.... should I change the MU ratio to reflect this? Or just make it 50:50?

@hippiedude: As far as killing goes, I think both characters have it tough. Luigi has more raw power on his side (aided by the fact that we're extremely light), but Pikachu can gimp, so that opens up a few more options for us. Neither side has it easy, though, because we don't have any guaranteed setups for our KO moves..... and we both lack a lot of range.

~Radiance~ · Feb 22, 2010

Thanks for the contributions, guys! Luigis put in work..... I love it. <3

Thanks, hehe. I know his platform game is really good, but I didn't know BF was such an insta-ban. I'll definitely keep that in mind.

Maybe somebody should've told Chibo that before he got his *** whooped by you, Matt..... lol.

holy crap yes ban BF. ive had to fight there twice in the past 2 days and even tho my opponnet is a scrubby luigi ive lost there both matches. My friend likes to spam fireballs and since you cant FH tjolts over to him due to the platfrom above him, it makes camping hard on that lvl. it also sets u above him where he can get in his arials, and that is always bad news. Ive taken recet advice and worked on incorporating ftilt and dtilt into my game more, maybe eventually i can tak a luigi to BF and be ok.

also @KayLo: id say leave the MU in luigis favor still. though we have a good gimping tool for offstage, our onstage combos and almost everythign in the air is shut down. We can outspace wth dtilt and ftilt but the fact that his moves can kill so easily (fsmash) makes me think that we shld leave the MU in his favor, even if by one point. just my opinion tho.

Roller · Feb 22, 2010

Forever Zero said:
also @KayLo: id say leave the MU in luigis favor still. though we have a good gimping tool for offstage, our onstage combos and almost everythign in the air is shut down. We can outspace wth dtilt and ftilt but the fact that his moves can kill so easily (fsmash) makes me think that we shld leave the MU in his favor, even if by one point. just my opinion tho.

Have to agree with FZero here.

KayLo! · Feb 22, 2010

Good. I feel the same way, but the discussion was leaning it more towards 50:50.... just wanted to make sure I wasn't being biased.

mib004 · Feb 25, 2010

This matchup is 50:50 if the pika plays right. You really have to outsmart the Luigi player to win.

altairian · Feb 25, 2010

mib004 said:
This matchup is 50:50 if the pika plays right. You really have to outsmart the Luigi player to win.

...doesn't that make it NOT 50:50?

King~ · Feb 25, 2010

altairian said:
...doesn't that make it NOT 50:50?

no cause then every match up would be not 50-50

this is a competiton, not a story mode

Famous · Feb 25, 2010

55-45 luigi...

Dark 3nergy · Feb 25, 2010

i dont think i saw this mentioned, but weegees fireball cancels tjolt

Famous · Feb 25, 2010

Jab, Fireball, tornado...

If weegee is approaching through your tjolts with jab...your kinda screwed since it's basically lagless once he gets to you...

KayLo! · Feb 25, 2010

Fireballs do cancel jolts, but they're pretty unreliable for the job because of the way both projectiles move. Most of the time, they'll end up passing each other without their hitboxes colliding, and tjolts travel much farther than fireballs.

Imo, if Luigi's approaching, it's better for him to jab, tornado, or avoid the tjolts altogether.

(Still a good tip to know, though, Dark! I was just adding onto what you said.)

PZ · Mar 10, 2010

Green pepper acts weird against qac and cancels tjolts. Fsmash and nair vuluable against pikachu aka shyroken. Pikachu has thunder and fsmash against luigi as kill moves. Thunder seems like a great edgeguard to me in this match up. Dtilt or ftilt are ur best OOS options. Utilize fthrow<usmash and dthrow is practically useless b4 13%. Youll find most of your combos being interupted and yes his nair is that good. Spacing utilt at low percents is advised and spaced uair everytime or else any combo u use with those moves will failz.

Dont roll after his dsmash hits your shield thats the dumbest thing you can ever due. Luigi's side b can easily be punished with thunder retreat back to the stage with thunder if its a good luigi your edgeguarding. If luigi tries upb quickly punish with fsmash if they're trying to head for the edge think fast. Watch out for dtilt and utilt. Uilt juggles and combos. Dtilt can trip and cause tech chases. Luigi's aerials are just redicously fast. So stay on the ground alot. Bair, jab, ftilt, fair, dair, nair, and green pepper easily stops tjolts. Nair is too good for luigi it comboes like his utilt but alt easier since its like a combo breaker.

Qac is a good option for moblilty and mindgames but dont overuse it. Never use side b unless you're up high when recovering. Bair= useless and this matchup cuz hell beat it everytime. Fair does not combo super easy against luigi. Qac lock= useless basically. I also find myself camping against him until i could think of a way to build his damage up.

Well I say 43:57 luigi's favor. Note: Ive been facing a luigi cpu so i most likely will be wrong about alot in your point of view or to the pros.

Legendary Pikachu · Mar 12, 2010

From my battles with Boss's Luigi and other experience (luigi is my secondary ^_^), matchup-wise, I feel that it is even or maybe SLIGHTLY in luigis favor.

It's all about keeping your cool (which is really easy to lose whenever you get jabbed and punched and kicked silly

)

From my perspective, the only legitamate opening is when the luigi is advancing and doing either an advancing jab or a SH f-air. If pika gets in there in time and shields (PS is preferred), then OOS stuff works nicely.

For me, gambling with anything else is a pain in the ***. T-jolts are almost void (but work wonders if landed since it makes a grounded luigi slide backwards like no other ^_^).

Charging f-smash randomly is good for spacing against a jab-happy luigi.

As for f-airing ones, dashing a OOS works a little bit.

B-air? Um.... that ones gonna be hard. I find the only thing pika can do is space higher than luigi (and hit him falling down [of course you then have to watch out for double-jump b-air]).

That's my two cents.

bigman40 · Mar 15, 2010

Not fun for Pika. You can't be up close since his jab leads to too many damage opportunities. Hit and run style helps, but the fact that Luigi is lagless on a ton of his moves makes getting damage in harder than it needs to be. You can try anticipating his SH aerials with a FH Dair, or you can rush under him when he FHs and Uair him for quick damage. Don't try to kill; there's too much risk when you whiff a kill move. Also, you're gonna have to be really good at vertical spacing to keep decent pressure. Horizontal spacing helps, but Pika is slow at moving left/right, so vertical spacing is a must.

bigman40 · Apr 19, 2010

double posting to prove that I know this matchup enough to say it's a ****ing pain.

Against Luigi, STAY THE HOLY GOD AWAY! HE WILL DESTROY YOU UP CLOSE! I know this is always said, but against luigi you really have to pitch a tent away from him and camp your *** off. If you get in close range, you are srsly screwed. If he is too close to camp, crouch. Your D-tilt outspaces everything he has, and if he goes in the air, shield and punish. He can't grab you from the air. He kills stupid early >_>, as you will see in my matches vs him. Fireballs < T-jolts, but still watch out, any one hit by luigi and you can get combo'd to stupid.

Biglou showed me all this before ESAM had a chance to see. I don't even like going Pika vs him anymore. This matchup relies on so ****ing many hit and run tactics that it makes this matchup dumb.

[FBC] ESAM · Apr 19, 2010

We have to camp harder in this match than any other match in the game. Luigi is the best in-boxer in the game. You gotta be more like on outboxer with your tail and F-tilt. The shield slide is too much and when he goes in the air shield = good. He can't do anything and you get to run away. However, it is still 55:45 Pikachu IMO.

KayLo! · Apr 20, 2010

I agree that it's not fun for Pika.

I'd still put it at slightly in Luigi's favor, but..... uh. I dunno, I have to reread the thread and see what the majority/more experienced folk are saying before I make up the final ratio. I'll try to work on the summary tomorrow.

[FBC] ESAM · Apr 20, 2010

BigLou says that its in Pikachu's favor if we play it right. Luigi can't do anything to spacing.

Pikabunz · Apr 20, 2010

Yeah, Luigi is too slow in the air and ground to do anything about dtilts and fsmashes. But you really have to focus on spacing the whole time, one mistake and you're gonna get combo'd or KO'd at low % from fsmash or up b. I can see this being in Pika's favor though if played gay enough.

[FBC] ESAM · Apr 21, 2010

Well in the optimal match-up, which is what we are typing (we aren't typing about average players) then it is in Pikachu's favor. Slightly, but still in our favor.

Syko_Lemming · Apr 21, 2010

Can't luigi get a tornado in if we don't hit him with a fsmash?

[FBC] ESAM · Apr 21, 2010

It is really easy to react to a tornado. You shouldn't be getting hit by it.

Syko_Lemming · Apr 21, 2010

No, I mean, if you Fsmash, and miss, I think he has time to tornado before pika finishes his ending lag.

Matchup Re-Discussion: Luigi

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