ZSS Frame Data

Right now I'm just dumping data that I've gathered so far so it doesn't get lost. I will format later.

Shield Hitlag/Sheild Stun:
Jab1: 6/1
Jab2: 6/1
Jab3: 5/1
F-tilt: 7/1 Upward angled: 8/1
D-tilt: 7/1
U-tilt: 5/1
D-Smash: 0/10
F-Smash: 8/1
U-Smash: 6/0
Dash Attack: 7/1
N-air: 8/1
F-air1: 6/1
F-air2: 8/1
U-air: 8/1
B-air: 10/1
D-air: 6/1
D-air Landing: 0/6
Side-B: 12/1
B: 0/7
Down B: 10/1
Up B: 0/4


Jab1 Raw Data:
Entire Length: 22
Hitbox Out: 1
Hitbox End: 4
IASA: 18
First Jab Loop: 8
First Jab Flow: 9
Hitbox Data:
Damage: 2/2/2/2
Direction: 3D/3D/3D/3D
KBG: 64/64/64/64
BKB: 0/0/0/0
Advantage: -16
Shield Drop Advantage: -10
Jab Flow Advantage: -8
Jab Flow Sheild Drop Advantage: -2

Jab2 Raw Data:
Entire Length: 22
Hitbox Out: 2
Hitbox End: 4
IASA: 21
First Jab Flow: 9
First Jab Loop: 11
Hitbox Data:
Damage: 2/2/2/2
Direction: -/-/-/-
KBG: 64/64/64/64
BKB: 0/0/0/0
Advantage: -19
Shield Drop Advantage: -13
Jab Flow Advantage: -11
Jab Flow Sheild Drop Advantage: -5

Jab3 Raw Data:
Entire Length: 26
Hitbox Out: 3
Hitbox End: 5
IASA: 23
Hitbox Data:
Damage: 3/3/3
Direction: -/-/-
KBG: 64/64/64
BKB: 2D/2D/2D
Advantage: -22
Shield Drop Advantage: -16

Dash Attack Raw Data:
Entire Length: 46
Hitbox Out: 6
Hitbox End: 16
IASA: 32
Hitbox Data:
Damage: 7>5/7>5/7>5
Direction: -/-/-/-
KBG: 50/50/50
BKB: 1E/1E/1E
Advantage: -25
Shield Drop Advantage: -19

F-tilt Raw Data:
Entire Length: 40
Hitbox Out: 6
Hitbox End: 9
IASA: 29
Hitbox Data:
Damage: 6/6/6/6
Direction: -/-/-/-
KBG: 64/64/64/64
BKB: 8/8/8/8
Advantage: -22
Shield Drop Advantage: -16

U-tilt Raw Data:
Entire Length: 56
Hitbox1 Out: 3
Hitbox1 End: 5
Hitbox2 Out: 7
Hitbox2 End: 9
IASA: 46
Hitbox1 Data:
Damage: 5/5/5/5/5
Direction: 78/78/82/82/50
KBG: 46/46/46/46/46
BKB: 37/37/50/50/37
Hitbox2 Data:
Damage: 6/6
Direction: 5A/5A
KBG: 50/50
BKB: 46/46
Advantage(H1): -52
Sheild Drop Advantage(H1): -46
Advantage(H2): -48
Sheild Drop Advantage(H2): -42

D-tilt Raw Data:
Entire Length: 37
Hitbox Out: 5
Hitbox End: 8
IASA: 25
Hitbox Data:
Damage: 6/6/6
Direction: 46/5A/50
KBG: 46/46/46
BKB: 41/41/41
Advantage: -19
Shield Drop Advantage: -13

F-smash Raw Data:
Entire Length: 68
Start Up (Before Charge): 13
Charge Release: 8
Hitbox Out: 21
Hitbox End: 26
IASA: n/a
Hitbox Data
Damage: 10/10/6/9/11/13
Direction: -/-/-/-/-/-
KBG: 30/30/35/35/35/35
BKB: 100/100/100/100/100/100
Advantage: -46
Shield Drop Advantage: -40

D-smash Raw Data:
Entire Length: 48
Start Up (Before Charge): 16
Charge Release: 5 (that's a good number)
Hitbox Out: 21
Hitbox End: 26
IASA: 36
Hitbox Data:
Damage: 11/11
Direction: 46/46
KBG: 32/32
BKB: 28/28
Advantage: -5
Shield Drop Advantage: 1 (that's an amazing number)

U-smash Raw Data:
too many hitboxes

N-air Raw Data:
Entire Length: 52
Hitbox Out: 10
Hitbox End: 19
IASA: n/a
Autocancel: 42
Landing Lag: 10
Hitbox Data:
Damage: 10/10/10/10
Direction: 55/52/50/47
KBG: 40/40/40/40
BKB: 80/80/80/80
Advantage: -41
AC Advantage: -31
LC Advantage: -10
Shield Drop Advantage: -35
AC Shield Drop Advantage: -25
LC Shield Drop Advantage: -4

D-air Raw Data
Entire Length: 68
Hitbox Out: 14
Hitbox End: 50
IASA: n/a
Autocancel: 50
Landing Lag: 40
Hitbox Data:
Damage: 5/5/4/4
Direction: 275/275/-/-
KBG: 35/35/35/35
BKB: 90/90/90/90
Advantage: -53
AC Advantage: -35
LC Advantage: -34
Shield Drop Advantage: -47
AC Shield Drop Advantage: -29
LC Shield Drop Advantage: -28

U-air Raw Data:
Entire Length: 36
Hitbox Out: 4
Hitbox End: 9
IASA: 34
Autocancel: 34
Landing Lag: 9
Hitbox Data:
Damage: A/A/A > 7/7/7
Direction: 80/80/80
KBG: 40/40/40 > 20/20/20
BKB: 100/100/100
Advantage: -31
AC Advantage: -29
LC Advantage: -8
Shield Drop Advantage: -25
AC Shield Drop Advantage: -23
LC Shield Drop Advantage: -2

F-air Raw Data
Entire Length: 48
Hitbox1 Out: 6
Hitbox1 End: 10
Hitbox2 Out: 16
Hitbox2 End: 21
IASA: n/a
Autocancel: 38
Landing Lag: 16
Hitbox1 Data:
Damage: 6/6/6
Direction: -/-/-
KBG: 35/35/35
BKB: 70/70/70
Hitbox2 Data:
Damage: 11/10/10 > 7/7/7
Direction -/-/-
KBG: 40/40/40
BKB: 105/105/105
Advantage: -31
AC Advantage: -21
LC Advantage: -15
Shield Drop Advantage: -25
AC Shield Drop Advantage: -15
LC Shield Drop Advantage: -9

B-air Raw Data:
Entire Length: 38
Hitbox Out: 8
Hitbox End: 11
IASA: n/a
Autocancel: 31
Landing Lag: 9
Hitbox Data:
Damage: 13/12/12
Direction: -/-/-
KBG: 33/33/33
BKB: 100/100/100
Advantage: -29
AC Advantage: -22
LC Advantage: -8
Shield Drop Advantage: -23
AC Shield Drop Advantage: -16
LC Shield Drop Advantage: -2

(WIP)

Wow, dsmash is really safe on block.

Yep, it is. Just don't try to double dsmash >.<

Lol@Fsmash

Are we going to get shield advantages on everything PSI?

Yes. You will be getting without landing advantage and perfect autocancel advantage.
You will also be getting the sheild advantage on your specials.

holy **** dsmash is amazing on block lol

Basically any action that takes less than 10 frames should be good after a dsmash. Does anyone know how this relates to the mecahnics of powershielding? Powershielding reduces shieldstun to 1 frame, right?

I thought that was widely known >.>

That is just the sheild stun. It isn't the advantage on block.

Wobbuffet said:

I thought that was widely known >.>

That is just the sheild stun. It isn't the advantage on block.

Click to expand...

Actually it is because dsmash has no ending lag, or very little. So the advantage should be somewhere between 6 and 10 frames.

EDIT: Seems I'm wrong, unless dsmash has IASA frames the lag is 15 frames afterward. So we actually have -5 advantage (or a 5 frame disadvantage).

-5...

so basicly if they shieldgrab we get a free utilt. Nice.

wait how is that? if shieldgrab takes six frames we're only +1.

Space dsmash and follow up with dtilt or ftilt for grounded shield pressure.

Six frames for shield grab? I thought 8-9 with most characters.

Okay a jab then.

That's just Jab1, so your likely to just Jab2. I'm most likely going to be working on it tonight, but as of now, I have a life.

You're taking this data directly from PSA right?

I seem to remember that when I looked at this, I had found some issues.

Examples:
Nair has no hitbox data, (which may be why it doesn't enter the stale moves queue)
F-smash has no 11% or 6% hitbox data* (mid-whip, tip and behind)

Granted, I am not well versed at using PSA so it might be somewhere that I can't find it.


*I really should look into whether these f-smash hitboxes enter the stale queue.

N-air will most likely be viewed as an article by the game or something of the sort. I WILL hex for the data however, so don't worry.

Edit: I'm looking at it now, it is an article, and I will hex for it. Same for F-smash which is why it doesn't have the whip data.

Someone should take all this data once it's proven accurate, and then add up the end lag to see which moves are actually safe or not.

Wobbuffet said:

N-air will most likely be viewed as an article by the game or something of the sort. I WILL hex for the data however, so don't worry.

Edit: I'm looking at it now, it is an article, and I will hex for it. Same for F-smash which is why it doesn't have the whip data.

Click to expand...

Hmm... that would explain why the hitboxes don't charge like a normal smash. I can't see the article being affected by charging.

ZSS is really badly coded. I dunno if all characters are similar, since I haven't really opened anyone else's PAC except for the alloys. I might not even be able to tell because I don't know any other moveset to the detail I know Zero Suit's

btw, if a move has greater than x1 HitlagMultiplier, is that worse than 1? or better?

ThreeSided said:

Someone should take all this data once it's proven accurate, and then add up the end lag to see which moves are actually safe or not.

Click to expand...

Brilliant.

And totally not obvious. Nope.

Just sayin'...

Don't worry just messing with ya ;D

Hitlag multiplier isn't really good but isn't really all that bad. But generally, you want it to be less, b/c the more there is, the more time the opponent has to DI correctly.

Supermodel From Paris said:

Actually it is because dsmash has no ending lag, or very little. So the advantage should be somewhere between 6 and 10 frames.

EDIT: Seems I'm wrong, unless dsmash has IASA frames the lag is 15 frames afterward. So we actually have -5 advantage (or a 5 frame disadvantage).

Click to expand...

True, -5, but let's go a little deeper.

Fastest grab in the game is Ness' and Lucario's which is 6 frames; the rest of the non-tethers hover around 8-10 frames. That's still an advantage.

If they try to do anything out of shield, the shield drop is 6-7 frames, combined with the start up of the move, that's an even bigger advantage.

If they try to do aerials out of shield, the crouch-jump animation is 5 at the very least (10 for bowser lol), combined with the start up of the aerial, that's still an advantage.

i.e. if the opponent tries to counter and doesn't hold up his/her shield/roll away/sidestep, dsmash to jab will always work.

edit: sorry, there are exceptions. i forgot about marth's dolphomo slash. and other upBs out of shield; they cancel the jumping animation so yeah

HailCrest said:

True, -5, but let's go a little deeper.

Fastest grab in the game is Ness' and Lucario's which is 6 frames; the rest of the non-tethers hover around 8-10 frames. That's still an advantage.

If they try to do anything out of shield, the shield drop is 6-7 frames, combined with the start up of the move, that's an even bigger advantage.

If they try to do aerials out of shield, the crouch-jump animation is 5 at the very least (10 for bowser lol), combined with the start up of the aerial, that's still an advantage.

i.e. if the opponent tries to counter and doesn't hold up his/her shield/roll away/sidestep, dsmash to jab will always work.

Click to expand...

You've got to remember that we are subject to all those things too. Other than our jab, which I honestly don't like using too much.

So the best shield pressure "combo" is dsmash then dtilt immediately right?

Actually, D-smash> Jab

RocketPSIence said:

Actually, D-smash> Jab

Click to expand...

If only third jab wasn't punishable.
D-tilt is better.

Yeah jab is NOT good shield pressure.

Jab is pretty terrible on shield.

If I'm reading this right, I'm pretty sure dsmash->dtilt is safe on block aside from PS the dsmash, against snake. Which is amazing. Does our dtilt animation duck the first hit of ftilt or clank?

I never said to finish the jab combo, due to the possibility of getting jabbed if you let your shield up to early, they're going to stay in their shields longer. If they try to shield drop after D-smash they'll get jabbed, however if they can shieldgrab between d-smash and d-tilt.

But you have more experience with ZSS, so you should probably know what works as shield pressure.

Are you planning to do the info on aerials? The stuff we have so far is great, but to our aerials are the most important facet of our game and itd help our approach game to know their advantage on shield especially.

Also I'd be curious how many frames of advantage we have if we hit the opponent with plasma shot

And can anyone clarify how many frames of advantage we have going from jab 1 to jab 2? Or advantage on trying jab 1 to cancel into something else?

id like to see bair and uair hitbox data on shield
bair tip
bair leg
uair backward
uair forward

and upb first frame of the hitbox

Nair autocanceled as well

Alright, I've just been lazy/hadn't much time to do this :/

If I don't work on it this weekend, someone spam my PM box.

Has anyone spammed his PM box yet? I would really like to see this finished

Spammed.

Also, been think about it and just from personal experience and what I've seen in vids I think autocanceled uair probably has similar frame advantage to dsmash, as in I'm pretty sure uair>jab is a guaranteed block string, which implies -5 advantage on shield at worst.

Just as a reference marth's fair autocancel is -4 on shield.

That's a completely worthless blockstring though, since jab's followups are limited to dtilt and run away.

kaleidoRuby said:

That's a completely worthless blockstring though, since jab's followups are limited to dtilt and run away.

Click to expand...

Well, not on all characters.

I'm using it to guess at what our frame advantage is. No on ever said jab is good on block.

Jab is cewl as you can run away after it and you're safe n stuff.
except if he also blocks the jab cuz you spaced wrong and shieldgrabs it, but you must be a moron to space wrong :3

You can't run away after it. It has such bad ending lag that almost everyone can get out of it. Marth can DS out of it on sheild OR when he gets hit. What BS is that.