Shorthop Double-fairs

I've always wondered how important SH Double-fairs are when you are playing Marth.
I'm maining Marth and have my wavedashing down perfectly and rarely mess upp my l-cancels, but I just can't get a hang off SHDF's so.

Are they so important in Marth's game that I have to learn how to do them, and if that's the case.
What's the easiest way to do them, techniques etc...

SHFFLing a single fair is way more important.

SHDF's primary application is in combos. The amount of attention they get isn't really proportionate to how important they are, but if you aim to play Marth at a serious level, it's not something you should overlook in the long term since it's a relatively simple technique to have in your arsenal and there are situations where your combo won't be as good as it could if you were able to do them.

I first did them by hitting Y with the top of my thumb and then A with the ball of my thumb for the rising fair, then moving to the C-stick for the second one. At some point I switched to doing the first fair by just sliding my thumb down to the A button without thinking about it. You have to do the rising one quickly, but getting the second one in is about getting the correct timing as soon as the first one finishes, not mashing it as fast as possible.

They're not really necessary. Work on SHFFLing late fairs and auto canceling your nairs and you should be fine.

I.B said:

They're not really necessary. Work on SHFFLing late fairs and auto canceling your nairs and you should be fine.

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Auto canceling your nairs could you break that down for me?

I would assume that would mean using a nair so the move ends before you need to L-cancel, but there is too little frames to allow you to do anything else.
Just a guess.

what papli said

instead of the l cancel lag you only have 4 frames of landing lag, so its faster.

The biggest problem I had when I first picked up marth was actually the timing of the FIRST fair. I was under the assumption that the second one wasn't coming out because of my timing issues but later realized that i wasn't doing my first fair fast enough after my shorthop. I use A for the first and cstick for the second so I can better control my DI on the second fair. Makes it easier to do retreating/approaching double fairs etc.

Another thing I just wanna point out is that SHDF isn't gonna turn you into Ken overnight. A lot of new players always hear about this shdf business and are throughly convinced that they'll start being godlike after they learn it. IMO the current marth metagame has evolved into strict reading/mindgame tactics as the standard edgeguards and chaingrabs and other tech has been put as standards for all marth players.

I believe that we are in a Marth slump and that Marth's placement in the tier list is indeed due to "phenoms" as I believe Bob Money (?) i think once mentioned such as Ken/M2K/Azen and that no average joe is gonna win a tournament just because he/she is playing marth.

No, SHDFs aren't very important.
Yes, you should master them.

well i can't really say how important they r, but yes mastering it would be good.
im no expert (not by a long shot) but i like SHDFing to catch my opponent and open up combo opportunity.
but thats just me and there r more experienced players out there that no more.

I don't find myself using them very often at all. They're flashy, and fast, but very predictable and easily punished.

I suggest that if you miss the first one, or it gets shielded and you somehow didn't get shieldgrabbed, then you should just not do the second fair. Just pull back out of reach. Or you could even pull back and then throw out the second one. I just don't see very many opportunities to use it unless I've got them in the air already, and they're still at a fairly low percentage.

Still, there's no reason why you shouldn't master it. The way I do it is I jump with x, and then i hit z immediately (it's quite easy to do since you have 2 different fingers to do it with) and then you have a lot of options to use the second fair. You can use the a button, the c stick or z again if you want.

you need to learn how to shdf with the cstick. the only way you can get around this is if you can consistently move backwards while doing a fair with the a/z button.

SHDF isn't worth learning. You'll just get shield grabbed.

It's worse when you're at kill %'s too; unless you're moving backwards whilst performing the SHDF (which is tricky to pull off on command in a match), you'll be DI'ing the direction you're facing.

There's a reason top players don't use it - there's better and safer approaches.

Paixy said:

SHDF isn't worth learning. You'll just get shield grabbed.

It's worse when you're at kill %'s too; unless you're moving backwards whilst performing the SHDF (which is tricky to pull off on command in a match), you'll be DI'ing the direction you're facing.

There's a reason top players don't use it - there's better and safer approaches.

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except that shdf is guaranteed ken combo if they either di bad or you don't tipper...so its situational. like nearly everything else not guaranteed in this game.

Ryucloud said:

Auto canceling your nairs could you break that down for me?

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Yup. You SH a rising n-air, then fast fall after the second sword swing.

You'll find auto-cancel n-air most effective as a retreating move.

EPsucks1337 said:

except that shdf is guaranteed ken combo if they either di bad or you don't tipper...so its situational. like nearly everything else not guaranteed in this game.

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Right.

SHDF's are best when your opponent is already in the air, at low/mid % (depending on the character).

Trying to pick your opponent off the ground with an early fair is stupid and really punishable.

When i SHDF i don't think about the 2nd fair as i'm jumping. Usually i'll be doing a rising fair to defend myself, then fall with a fair if i have to. Think of it like luigi's aerials. If you sh dair and it hits, you don't land with a nair because that would be a waste. You would waveland to follow up the dair. But if you sh dair and it wiffs you might fall with a nair (in certain situations when the nair is going to hit, like if they spotdodged the dair or dodged and were coming in for a grab punish and you want to hit them out of their grab. otherwise you would probably waveland into better position). Same should be done with marth's sh fair. You do the first one, if it hits you might double jump out and follow up with a combo or fast fall and utilt or waveland. If it wiffs you might throw a 2nd fair to cover your front, or use a uair if they got above you, or basically anything you want based on the situation.

also, i suggest never doing shdf on a shield, its just plain stupid. Even if you space it right, most characters can jump OoS and hit you between the hits.

easiest way to do them depends on the situation. if you're just standing in place, then just use the c stick. one as soon as you sh and another right as you are about to hit the ground. if your hopping forward, then use the A button for the first one since its easier to slide your finger over (assuming ur using the x or y buton to jump) and then u can use the c stick or stay with the A button ( i personally prefer the A button since my fingers already on there and i'm lazy lol). you can also wavedashing back and then jump, this gives you more time since your first f air moves you slightly forward, canceling out the the bakcward momentum. Its all about timing