Snake Matchup Discussion

Ratio:
60:40 Snake's favor

Toon Link's advantages:
*Better Aerial game.
*Can outcamp Snake.
*Bair and utilt are amazing at keeping Snake juggled.

Snake's advantages:
*Super heavy, further complimented by Toon Link not being very good at getting the kill. Snake will often live to 160%+ especially in this matchup.
*Dthrow tech chasing. Works exceptionally well against Toon Link because of his bad rolls which can be chases ON REACTION. You can normally eat 20-40% off of one grab and if you're horribly predictable then a bit more maybe the stock if you're that bad.
*Excellent Out of shield Punishers which speed, power and range. Be afraid of hitting his shield and always space you attacks so you dont get grabbed or tilted.
*Excellent Kill Power. A fresh Utilt can kill with no DI @ early 100s and @ 120s with DI.
*Racks damage faster than Toon Link.
*His camp game can kill.

Stages to Strike:
*Lylat Cruise
*Yoshi's Island

Stages to Ban:
*Halberd

Counterpick Stages:
*Rainbow Cruise
*Final Destination

Things to keep in mind:
*Approaching Snake with your aerials is generally not safe, his OoS game is just too good.
*Most Snakes have a habit of spotdodging OoS.
*A near perfect spaced Zair will blow up nades when Snake is sitting in his shield.
*Arrows and boomerang stop nades.
*Dont get grabbed, ever.
*You can grab his DACUS if you see it coming.
*His nair is dumb.

Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhx2B_11Xvc mjg vs joker grand finals 6

Helpful Posts:

IrisKong said:

This is the MU I have the most EXP in, so I hope I can be of help.

Ratio: This is a very close MU (and we have to think of it at high level play), I put it 55:45 in snakes favor for neutrals, and depending on CP's it can go 50:50

Toon Link's advantages: This is depending on % for the players but at low %, Tink out camps Snake, we can get alot of damage on him with spam. The problem alot of tinks dont seem to understand is that once both characters are at around 100%, Snake out camps us because his camp game kills.
Tink is MUCH better in the air (both in mobility and in air attacks) than snake and we need to take advantage of that. Alot of the kills that tink will get on snake are by bating an air dodge and hitting them with Uair

Snake's advantages: Snakes tilts are painful...incredibly painful. Utilt kills at 120% even when you have good DI. Ftilt had broke range and does alot of damage. Also, snake can tech chase Tink out of Dthrow fairly easy, Tink has to be clever in mixing up the different ways he is going to get up or get re-grabbed 3/4/...5more times. Dont just sit there at high %, you will get Utilted.
Snake wont die...If you kill him at 150%, you should be happy because he probably Di'd wrong. Snake will easily live/not be in kill range until 180%. Tink is in kill ranges at 120%.

Stages to Strike:...This is really your call, FD is a good stage for tink, its also a good stage for snake, I like taking snake to PS1 if thats the legal neutral, lylat if its the legal neutral (im so used to playing snake, so I dont get confused by the level and his projectiles though, they can be tricky to see.) If you tak him to SV, be aware of C4/Mines being put on the moving platform. BF may be a good choice as you can poke through platforms.

Stages to Ban: ban halberd. its good for tink, its snakes best level, dont try it. most snakes like halberd and FD.

Counterpick Stages:Most snakes will ban RC, if not, take them there. other stages I would choose are ones that force him to jump around, snakes hate the air.

Things to keep in mind: snakes Nair goes through Arrows. Tinks Uair last forever and will usually hit them after an airdodge. You can zair/grab snake out of DACUS.

Edit, may add more later if people disagree with me, feel free to discuss.

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Hyro said:

To camp Snake you just don't touch the ground. SH bomb pull, DJ bomb throw down, bomb pull while falling, land with a retreating zair, they shouldn't try to chase since you have a bomb, do something with the bomb, rinse and repeat over and over. Don't get your double jump read with a nair. Instead, read their nair with an ibomb. Remember, you're forcing them in the air so you can juggle them.

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we just did this...doing it again?

Fresh start. That old thread was dumb. We're going by tier order now but I guess we could postpone this if you all want. We DID discuss this just a while ago >_>.

Ya we did this pretty recently (Sort of)

Im willing to discuss this MU but im going out to soon.

Be REALLY careful with that Z-Air spacing. If he shield grabs, he can potentially rack up a LOT of damage with down throw tech chase. TL's get up options are really bad. A lot of TLs do air dodge > zair, which gets predictable.
Grabbing is risky, because you can get punished hard by Snake's gay *** moves if you miss.
Watch out for his stupid broken Up Tilt. That thing kills at like 120% I think with good DI..? Get him in the air because he is so vulnerable there. Be careful because when he's falling he can wave bounce with nade to a bair. SDI his dair and nair if he uses it because those moves have a CRAP load of kb

Ban Brinstar..?

..

Pretty obvious imo lol

I'll follow the OP guidelines, but I need to make one point quickly.

TINKS: Do not approach this MU thinking Toon Link fully out camps Snake. We don't.

Yes, Toon Link can build up damage quicker with his projectiles. You must consider other aspects though.

1. Snake lives longer
It's true. You get %120 on him and he gets %100 on you. You're in kill range. He isn't.

2. Camping MU is stage dependent
Though Tink does for the most part outcamp Snake, this doesn't apply to every stage. Battle field for example just plays into Snake's camp game better.

3. His camp game kills
Throw as much **** as you want; you ain't killing him. If you're at high percentages, as in both in kills range, your camp game is over. Yeah, you can still rack up more damage, but his camp game KOs.


Not saying Snake outcamps Tink per se, but it isn't clear cut who gets the advantage from this.

If this MU will be 55:45 TL, 50:50 or 45:55 Snake or it says there "They camp each other equally". I'm gonna put TL as the discussion in the MU disagreement thread.

I don't really have much experience with this MU but all I know is that it's Snake's favor according to the others (60:40) and that Snake completely outcamps TL

lol no

Don't worry. It won't be any better for Tink than 60-40 Snake. Pretty sure that's what it will stay.
Regardless, with this new format is seems more oriented in learning the MU than determining it, which is very good ****, S@nt.

I honestly think that TL gets slightly out camped. SHDA doesn't really work because if he throws a nade it interrupts your SHDA and Snake can capitalize on that. His nades do more damage, and since our projectiles are slow he should be able to shield a lot of them. Idk how well bombs work in this MU because bombs clash with nades which hurts you more than Snake since he lives a lot longer.

Uh... thoughts

Look at the number of advantages Snake have:
- Range
- Power
- Better than TL in camping
- Kills TL easily
- Can edgeguard TL's easy to edgeguard recovery even though it's high (Read our edgeguarding guide at the Snake boards)
- Can powershield TL's slow arrows and boomerangs
- Can live very long and to make it better, TL stinks at killing

The only advantages TL have:
- Faster attacks
- Better at racking up damage
- Aerial attacks are better than Snake's

Ratio:
I think it's a 60:40 Snake's favor

Snake definetely doesnt outcamp TL lol. With all the advantages you listed, you make it seem like a 70 30 matchup...Have you done this matchup at all?

TLMSheikant said:

Snake definetely doesnt outcamp TL lol. With all the advantages you listed, you make it seem like a 70 30 matchup...Have you done this matchup at all?

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Yeah this is my fav TL match up to play lol
Definitely not 7030

Im going to follow the Format here in a second but I would also like to point out that...attacking snake with a lot of aerials is not safe because he can just Up-Tilt, F-Tilt, Or jab you when you are in the air. If your going to hit him with it (or at least make an attempt) make sure you know its going to hit...Still risky >_>

berserker01 said:

Look at the number of advantages Snake have:
- Range
- Power
- Better than TL in camping No. Maybe overall but in this MU Tink slightly wins.
- Kills TL easily
- Can edgeguard TL's easy to edgeguard recovery even though it's high (Read our edgeguarding guide at the Snake boards) Tink shouldn't be getting edgegaurded from Snake much
- Can powershield TL's slow arrows and boomerangs
- Can live very long and to make it better, TL stinks at killing

The only advantages TL have:
- Faster attacks Ftilt, Utilt and Jab from Snake? The attacks you should be using here are about the same speed as ours
- Better at racking up damage Also not really true. Tink can rack up damage, but he doesn't have the OMFG %21 super-tilt kinda moves
- Aerial attacks are better than Snake's

Ratio:
I think it's a 60:40 Snake's favor

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edits are in red.

This is the MU I have the most EXP in, so I hope I can be of help.

Ratio: This is a very close MU (and we have to think of it at high level play), I put it 55:45 in snakes favor for neutrals, and depending on CP's it can go 50:50

Toon Link's advantages: This is depending on % for the players but at low %, Tink out camps Snake, we can get alot of damage on him with spam. The problem alot of tinks dont seem to understand is that once both characters are at around 100%, Snake out camps us because his camp game kills.
Tink is MUCH better in the air (both in mobility and in air attacks) than snake and we need to take advantage of that. Alot of the kills that tink will get on snake are by bating an air dodge and hitting them with Uair

Snake's advantages: Snakes tilts are painful...incredibly painful. Utilt kills at 120% even when you have good DI. Ftilt had broke range and does alot of damage. Also, snake can tech chase Tink out of Dthrow fairly easy, Tink has to be clever in mixing up the different ways he is going to get up or get re-grabbed 3/4/...5more times. Dont just sit there at high %, you will get Utilted.
Snake wont die...If you kill him at 150%, you should be happy because he probably Di'd wrong. Snake will easily live/not be in kill range until 180%. Tink is in kill ranges at 120%.

Stages to Strike:...This is really your call, FD is a good stage for tink, its also a good stage for snake, I like taking snake to PS1 if thats the legal neutral, lylat if its the legal neutral (im so used to playing snake, so I dont get confused by the level and his projectiles though, they can be tricky to see.) If you tak him to SV, be aware of C4/Mines being put on the moving platform. BF may be a good choice as you can poke through platforms.

Stages to Ban: ban halberd. its good for tink, its snakes best level, dont try it. most snakes like halberd and FD.

Counterpick Stages:Most snakes will ban RC, if not, take them there. other stages I would choose are ones that force him to jump around, snakes hate the air.

Things to keep in mind: snakes Nair goes through Arrows. Tinks Uair last forever and will usually hit them after an airdodge. You can zair/grab snake out of DACUS.

Edit, may add more later if people disagree with me, feel free to discuss.

I liked it, only disagree with the stages. I wouldn't ever take snake to lylat or PS1. I ban halberd and I assume they would CP lylat. I like it when the cp FD, it's good for them, but we can manage their. I don't cp any cp stages (that's just me) so my neutral cp is usually smashville. I understand he can c4 the platform but that doesn't bother, I feel like we move around on that stage very well. I would probably take them to BF too if I needed to.

I'd say 60-40 just for the dthrow.

Hyro said:

I liked it, only disagree with the stages. I wouldn't ever take snake to lylat or PS1. I ban halberd and I assume they would CP lylat. I like it when the cp FD, it's good for them, but we can manage their. I don't cp any cp stages (that's just me) so my neutral cp is usually smashville. I understand he can c4 the platform but that doesn't bother, I feel like we move around on that stage very well. I would probably take them to BF too if I needed to.

I'd say 60-40 just for the dthrow.

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That dthrow **** is so annoying.

Hyro said:

I liked it, only disagree with the stages. I wouldn't ever take snake to lylat or PS1. I ban halberd and I assume they would CP lylat. I like it when the cp FD, it's good for them, but we can manage their. I don't cp any cp stages (that's just me) so my neutral cp is usually smashville. I understand he can c4 the platform but that doesn't bother, I feel like we move around on that stage very well. I would probably take them to BF too if I needed to.

I'd say 60-40 just for the dthrow.

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I dont mind playing on neutrals, I just like choosing stages that people are unfamiliar with. As I said, stages is kind of a preference thing as far as neutrals go because its such a close match up (imo).

If the Snake could react perfectly Dthrow would make this MU almost unwinnable...We'd still have the "not get grabbed option" but they always ends in a grab >__<

demonictoonlink said:

If the Snake could react perfectly Dthrow would make this MU almost unwinnable...We'd still have the "not get grabbed option" but they always ends in a grab >__<

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Seriously... Space that zair carefully.

..............................

um we're playing known snakes

razer says hello

we're not doing it wrong, our snakes are doing it right

Seriously, I thought SuSa was just being dumb with that Dthrow stuff, but really, it's quite bad.

I get to play a good Snake sometimes, and he seems to get five or so grabs. This is with me even just waiting there for a few seconds.

I think its 55-45 snake.

We can out camp them, and we'll probably have the lead in percent. But they can kill us so easily and we have a hard time killing them.

You arent even with snake until he has 80% more damage than you do. thats the problem with snake. at least thats how I think of it.

80%???

We are even-ish with snake when snake is up 30% more than Toonlink IMO

Stages to strike: SV, YI, PS1, Halberd, Lylat (Lylat and halberd are off the list for some regions/states though)

Stages to ban: ***Halberd, **Lylat, *SV

Counterpick Stages: BF, FD, RC

Things to keep in mind:
-Approaching snake with most of your aerials are not safe. Snake can just Up-tilt/F-Tilt/Jab OoS and punish us while TL is still in the air.
-Snakes like to spot dodge OoS.
-A near perfect/perfectly spaced Zair will blow up Nades if the snake player is sitting in his shield while the nade is underneath him.
-Arrows and TL's boomerang will stop snake's nades.

Videos: Although I lost in this match, I believe this shows how well TL does on BF vs snake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhx2B_11Xvc

Na, 80% is about right lol. One ftilt is 21, then if you get grabbed.. gg.

Even though I haven't really experienced this matchup much, I've noticed noticable (lol) differences on the difficulty of playing this matchup on most normal stages compared to battlefield and delfino. Those are probably your best stages to CP him to unless you have some sort of personal preference.

Nice match mjg. I'm watching the rest os the videos ^^

It doesn't matter that much we can outcamp him, he can approach using a dacus and when he is close he will hack up damage. Grenades still a problem block them with zair or boomerang is nice.

Snake doesn't like losing a stock, if the player have an awesome spacing he will not die easy, so the better thing is getting the lead and try a hit and run game, doing combos (bair, nair, utilt), and alternating with toon's projectiles

Near the edge, Zair+ Dash Atack+ Dtilt = ****. It can lead to one or more fairs, maybe an EK on the snake, or in the worst way...a C4 recovery...

Hmm, I have a recent video against a snake...
Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0egUJYptmjA

TheJerm said:

Na, 80% is about right lol. One ftilt is 21, then if you get grabbed.. gg.

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DOwn throw will always be a problem in this MU >_>. I hate it.

-NaPPy said:

Even though I haven't really experienced this matchup much, I've noticed noticable (lol) differences on the difficulty of playing this matchup on most normal stages compared to battlefield and delfino. Those are probably your best stages to CP him to unless you have some sort of personal preference.

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I like taking snakes to delfino as well but I will usually go to other stages before delfino.

New england is super heavy with snakes (Fatal, bizkit, mikeray...), I know this MU pretty well. Haven't lost to a snake in about 4 months! (not counting Fatal going MK on me, I think I went 1-1 against his snake in those sets)

-Honestly, there is no way this matchup is worse than 50-50. We should be staying around midrange or close range, and always in the air (preferably above, throwing bombs down [use them to set up combos, not build damage])

-The main thing in this matchup is really just to abuse bair. Hit him with it under 10% and make sure you land behind him, thenrun away if he lands fast enough to ftilt, if not, utilt a couple times then bair until he's offstage. Then you get a few more attacks in, and you start the actual matchup with him at a 60% disadvantage. There isn't really a character that's easier to do this to, as long as you space everything perfectly.

-NEVER land in front of snake. You will eat a jab, ftilt, utilt, dtilt, or 40% in grabs if you do. If you land behind, his only viable option is ftilt, which can be shielded.

-If ftilt hits on shield, just try to jump and nair, since they're usually gonna follow it with hit 1 (for extra shield pressure) and not hit 2, and then since you're in the air you just take a little knockback and 8% or so, which is way better than anything else. If you use a ground move, it'll probably clash and he'll just ftilt again and give you 21%. Though if you notice that they wait for hit 2 each time, and you PS hit 1, then jab. Our jab and his Ftilt2 both come out frame 6, so it's your call.

-Utilt is god for TL, spam the **** out of it, and follow it with a bair every time.

-Don't stay long range, we will be slightly better at camping but if you're at high %, our projectiles won't have much knockback, if his hits it will just let him dacus and land under us.

-Platforms are amazing for us and don't help him too much. Use them to get up really high when he recovers high and you can kill him early. And since snake is tall, most bombs will him him through the platforms. There's a big range of percents for snake where if we bair him he'll almost be forced to land on an average platform, so if it's small like on BF or Lylat, just wait for his tech and punish accordingly. One bair should lead to 4 or 5 if you're patient like that.

-Don't die under %120, if you do you're DIing wrong. And learn to SDI like crazy, since half his aerials are multihit and can be punished if you DI out of them.

-And please for the love of god, BAIR him out of cypher once or twice before you fair/uair. It's so low knockback you're basically just resetting the cypher, with an additional %12 or so before any significant aerial gain is made.


55-45 TL. Don't get hit with utilt. It's avoidable and telegraphed. And kill snake early. If you let hit start camping at 160% then you're screwed.

Tink vrs snake is alot like snake vrs marth, its very close if not even, but marth and tink have to try alot harder/play alot smarter than snake does.

I agree with the 80% thing.

And guys, really, it isn't even. I have no idea where this talk is coming from. It especially isn't in Toon Link's favor...that's just...wow.

Who said it was in Toon Links favor?

I think most TLs can agree that it is 60:40

copacetic said:

55-45 TL. Don't get hit with utilt. It's avoidable and telegraphed. And kill snake early. If you let hit start camping at 160% then you're screwed.

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This guy.


Well done post overall though.

Saying it's 55-45 TL is just cocky and unrealistic. Even if you think you're good at the matchup, it's still over the top.

"-NEVER land in front of snake. You will eat a jab, ftilt, utilt, dtilt, or 40% in grabs if you do. If you land behind, his only viable option is ftilt, which can be shielded."

Then play different snakes. If they read that you're gonna land behind them, (which apparently you do everytime), they can buffer a turnaround and do the same exact things as if you landed in front of them.

"-If ftilt hits on shield, just try to jump and nair, since they're usually gonna follow it with hit 1 (for extra shield pressure) and not hit 2, and then since you're in the air you just take a little knockback and 8% or so, which is way better than anything else. If you use a ground move, it'll probably clash and he'll just ftilt again and give you 21%. Though if you notice that they wait for hit 2 each time, and you PS hit 1, then jab. Our jab and his Ftilt2 both come out frame 6, so it's your call."

If you shield the first hit of ftilt, you should follow it up with a gtfo.

"-Utilt is god for TL, spam the **** out of it, and follow it with a bair every time."

I wouldn't recommend this at all. Hitting shields with utilt is asking for 21%.

TLMSheikant said:

Ratio: 45:55 or 40:60

Toon Link's advantages:


Snake's advantages:

Stages to Strike:
Smashville then Lylat. If he strikes one of those then strike Yoshi's.

Stages to Ban:
Halberd, Smashville, Final Destination (I think it's subjective).


Counterpick Stages:Rainbow Cruise, Battlefield, idk....

Things to keep in mind:
Too keep things short, don't ever go within Utilt range of him, whether it be in front or in back of him. The only exception to this is if he's stuck in some sort of animation, then it's okay to attack.

Never bring Bombs in a Grenade's fight. Just use Boomerang and Arrows, since they stop grenades in place, instead of blowing them up in your face.

Spoiler

rhymes!

Snake is vulnerable in the first 2 seconds or so of his UpB. Give him a Bair/Fair.

Snake can be juggled fairly easy, but juggle with caution.

Videos:
No.

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H i.

60-40 snakes favor