Snake vs. Mr. Game & Watch

Underload · Feb 17, 2010

Discuss the Mr. Game & Watch matchup in here. Discussion is open indefinitely. Don't be afraid to post.

Bulletpoints:

Game & Watch is a weird matchup. You're the one who controls the flow of the entire matchup, but if you make a mistake or two, G&W is excellent at punishing you for it.
Understand his range and how it compares to yours. His moves have ridiculous priority at times, but are balanced out by their predictability. I speak mainly of his smashes.
Your camping is multiplies tenfold here. I can't stress this enough. A well placed nade will destroy his aerial approach options, since all of his aerials save for bair (correct me if I'm wrong) will blow up a grenade on contact. This fact makes your anti-air game that much more efficient. C4 is fantastic against G&W also.
Once you reach killing percentage (130%+), actively shift your mindset to watching G&W's patterns. It varies from player to player, but usually you can scout out how he likes to kill. Use your superior movepool to completely shut down his killing game. For example, Dave's (Colorado player) most common kill setup is multiple uairs when I'm coming down from a cypher to initiate a juggle, and then catching me with an fsmash on descent. G&W relies on these situations, and if you scout them out, you're set for another 30% or more.
Consider banning Rainbow Cruise or Frigate Orpheon. Pertaining to stage layout, those two stages are much better suited for G&W.
Counterpick Halberd or Final Destination.
Common consensus is 60:40 in Snake's favor.

Notable Posts:

TwentyTwo said:
G&W is a tricky matchup. Snake controls the flow of this matchup, but if you become make a mistake and are forced to approach G&W you get put into a really tough position.

His Bair - If full hopped then just shield it out. If short hopped you SDI and back air him back. However, I don't think there is a way he can space it to avoid a nade if we're holding it and walking at him backward. If you're on the approach, this is the way, walk backward with a nade, then either shield and wait or roll away. Either way this nade is pretty good about keeping you safe.

Like any other character if we're in the air he does bad things to us. Uair to kill our momentum, making it hard to b-reverse and mix it up. Nair does a lot of dmg.

He has a dthrow techchase similar to ours, not as good though. And we have the best tech roll(can he punish our forward one?), so mix it up, and you should not get hit by his Usmash chase. On the other side, he has a pretty bad tech roll, so use the dthrow, his get up attack doesn't push us back, so you can shield to wait and see.

We're not a hard counter like we used to think, but we do win the matchup. 60:40 imo.

Bizkit047 said:
I'm not too knowledgeable at this matchup, but I'll share some of what I know.

Overall, Snake beats G&W somewhat well, but it's not an easy matchup by any means due to G&W having good juggles, great kill power, good KO setups, and his bucket braking momentum canceling. For stages, less platforms the better. Ban RC for sure against G&W. His aerial game will poke you to death and you'll probably die to a Uair faster than you ever should. For counterpicks, go with FD. Snake ***** G&W on FD IMO. Halberd is an option too if you're good at avoiding smashes from G&W, as utilt will KO G&W early.

Most G&W approach with the obvious Bair horizontally. Twenty Two already covered it pretty well with Snakes options. If you choose to shield it all, do realize the G&W may Up B immediately after to avoid punishment, so your window of punishing it is slim.

If G&W is above you, always expect the Dair. It goes through a lot of moves. It has landing lag though, so if it's not spaced well you can punish. Dair will hit you if the G&W lands on a platform, but I'm sure you can duck it and attempt to punish.

Be careful at low percents. G&W can juggle you very well with Utilts, Nair, etc. G&W's ground game is very bad vs Snake, so I wouldn't expect many approaches from G&W that aren't a Fair/Dair/Nair/Bair. Do beware of G&W's dash attack near the ledge, as it can stage spike you.

The worst thing about this matchup for Snake is how early G&W can KO Snake. Snake isn't used to this. You have to really learn to mix up your landing, so that you're not landing into a fully charged Usmash every time. Pivot Nading and staying away from G&W while landing is very wise. Other than that, G&W will have a very hard time KOing you due to his smashing all being predictable. Fair is his only other reasonable KO option besides his smashes, so beware of that during recovery over the edge, G&W loves to chase you with that.

Dthrow doesn't **** G&W as much as it used to. G&W has a terrible roll, but he has an option of getting up (not get up attack) and Up Bing immediately to avoid the tech chase. You can't really react to this, so you'd have to predict it. If you do, you can punish right before the Up B. Just be aware of this. The G&W will probably mix it up if he gets punished once, so be aware.

And of course, beware of getting 9'd. G&W players would most likely only do this when you're at low %'s or in a desperate situation to try to get a free early KO.

I'd stand grounded during this matchup. There's no reason to really jump around like a lunatic trying to Bair/Uair/Nair/etc. Other than that, just play smart. Camp all day if you want, G&W can't camp you back other than retreating Bairs that you can beat with nades.

I'm going to go with 60:40 Snake too.

-NaPPy said:
Since 22 and bizkit already had such fantastic posts I'll just throw in a few things.

As long as you camp him properly and dont fall for any tricks like planking shenanigans or whatever kind of on stage stuff he might have you should be fine. Literally, just nade+ftilt. That joke should work pretty well with this matchup, GnW dies early and he will have a difficult time killing snake because of how hard it is to get near him.

Dont go around doing anything dumb like air dodging into a smash attack or something too, i can see that as one of his few chances to kill you is when you're falling. Dont let things like that happen and you SHOULD be fine

6/4 snakes favor

TwentyTwo said:
Don't go head on against the key as bizkit said, use the general anti air stuff though. Utilt, Usmash, soft toss nades, or just put c4s down near you so it's unsafe to key/land near you.

A2ZOMG said:
Matchup is stage dependent, overall in Snake's favor, but I think you guys already covered everything that matters otherwise so good job.

It's worth noting that G&W can land fullhop F-airs and B-airs on Snake pretty easily if you don't duck, and that he has the range to punish F-tilt out of shield with those aerials.

If he gets a lead on platformed stages, it's pretty hard for Snake to do anything if he chooses to stall furthermore. Judgement 4-9 hit Snake out of Cypher, so it's actually one of his best options for edgeguarding Snake.

Alphicans said:
This match-up is really fun. Personally I think Gaw goes almost even with snake, but you have to play really well, with minimal mistakes, and with a character like snake who can punish so easily and so viciously, that sounds like a very difficult task. I think the key for GaW is to just wait and wait and wait. I think dthrow is useless in this match-up, not because it's bad but because uthrow is way better, like infinitely better. If played right, it's a free 30% per uthrow, where as a dthrow doesn't guarantee this damage output due to snake's long roll and weaker follow ups. The key is to abuse his ****ty aerial mobility and use a lot of uair to keep him up there. When snake is on a platform, I think uair is a safer option since it strips his gernades away from him, and still does decent shield pressure, and you can follow up with a nair without any risk of getting blown up.

Killing snake is difficult, as it is for most characters, but again I feel the best way to get around this hurdle is to keep him in the air as long as possible with uair and finish off with a quick usmash. I've gotten kills on snake at like 80% using this strategy, and pretty consistently at that.

Honestly, uair is the best move for this match-up, it's seriously a God send. I don't see enough of it being used in the match-up, and it really closes the gap between the characters. Once GaW's start abusing this against snake, we'll see GaWs doing a lot better.

My m/u ratio is 55:45 for snake.

thesoviet said:
Wellll ok, Snake shuts down pretty much everything GaW does. Alphicans could not be farther off on his ratio. (GOOD SNAKES) we wont be able to kill for a pretty long time. And after a couple hits we will be in kill range unlike on our side were gonna have sit there racking up damage and trying to not to approach you. On halbred Utilt kills GaW at 60%. Pretty much everything out prioritizes our dair, and if you drop a grenade when we Shop a bair were gonna end up taking more damage then you. this match up is extremely one sided.
65:35

Splice said:
Uh just some small points... A lot of it's super obvious but I felt like making a post.

*GaW can use Bair to defend against nades whilst approaching if you are just throwing them and not being smart and dropping them on the ground etc.

*What shmot said about getting hit by bair and then SDIing to attack is a good idea but, if you don't SDI it fast enough, GaW can UpB away, and plus GaW can space so only the last couple of hits of Bair hit and you won't be able to punish it if you get hit. And don't forget if GaW Bairs into the ground there can be an extra hit that will hit you away so if you don't sheild that you will not be able to punish GaW anyway.
So I think trying to punish from sheild and other tactics is better than just getting hit by it overall.

*GaW can spike your cypher with Dair. This happens rarely I'd imagine, but you'd feel pretty stupid if it happened to you

*Even if you B-Reverse a grenade as you recover, GaW can Uair you and make it not work, so you have to be smart about getting to the ground.

*If GaW is too aggressive, and tries to Fair you as you are falling from high up to get to the ledge, you can Fair spike them. If they airdodge you should still be able to recover to the stage, so if they telegraph an Fair than you can Fair them back. Don't get psyched though.

*GaW has a hard time tech chasing Snake due to his long roll, and I'm pretty sure GaW should be throwing Snake upwards out of grab, so be prepared for that.

*Mortar Slide is often telegraphed by Snakes and GaW can Fsmash this quite easily because of its long lasting hit box.

*GaW can use bucket to blow up Dsmash Snake mines without getting hit.

*If GaW is on the ledge and is sharking you to make you move away, you can Bair stage spike him if you predict this and he Nairs/Uairs to far into the stage. Risky though...

*Often when I'm in the air, foolish snakes try to Usmash or Mortar Slide to the edge and Usmash me. This is bad... GaW can Dair through the flying bomb and punish your lag, and if you are on the edge this can even hit you offstage. I almost always end up Dairing through the bomb and then Dair hitting them, or I'm too slow and they roll away and I manage to grab them at the end of the roll or something like that.

Pretty much, GaW is going to be trying to approach, and not necessarily with Bair. An approach is succesful for him if it gets you in the air. That's the gameplan for GaW, get Snake above you. GaW can weave around the grenades quite gracefully, so whilst they really make the MU tough, don't expect them to just 'work'. You'll have to be tactical with the grenades. Also, if you are in a sort of advantageous position on stage, and you are trying to use a physical attack on GaW like Ftilt or something, beware: The risk of getting hit just once, and that putting you into the air so GaW can juggle you, is often not worth the reward of getting an Ftilt/Single attack that's unlikely to follow up. BTW it may be just me, but personally when I fight a Snake I find Snakes Ftilt to be especially annoying.

Strike - Final Destination, Battlefield (I'm not to sure on this)
Ban - Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, stages that have transformations and gimmicks that may make you jump.
Counterpick - Halberd. Beware of sharking though, but if GaW goes to high you can Utilt him from above. I don't know what Snake would CP if i banned Halberd...

60:40 in Snakes favour.
It shouldn't be any worse than that for GaW, really.

Bizkit047 said:
I would definitely say FD is G&W's worst, and BF is his best. The triple platform on BF gives G&W a really easy time juggling Snake. For Lylat, I think it's good for both chars. Platforms for G&W, good stage control for Snake with hidden C4/mines/nades. YI is probably a toss up between the two, and I think SV is pretty close to FD so I wouldn't strike that over YI/BF.

Splice said:
Ok so with the five starters (not neutrals )

It really depends on juggling.

In my opinion I would put Battlefield, Lylat, FD, Yoshis, Snake in order of what I like vs Snake. Here lets add some description as to why.

On Battlefield the platforms make it easier for GaW to keep juggling Snake, without making it easier for Snake to get to the ground by giving him the option of landing on them; it's easy for GaW to just Nair you when you land on a platform, so it helps reduce your landing potential and increasing GaWs mobility.
Not to mention that this stage is pretty easy to dodge grenades and due to the platforms taking up most of the space GaW will be more succesful and safe in his attempts to get snake in the air.
Seriously if you end up playing on this stage as a neutral, and you are the Snake player, you messed up, or maybe you have weird preferences...

Then Lylat is more of the same, except the platforms don't restrict Snake from landing as much so that's good. The tilted ledges that GaWs Nair sharks through are really good for helping him get back on stage and for helping him keep you off though, so this stage is still good for GaW imo. It's hard to see your mines, but a good player will remember where those mines are.

Now srs Business...

FD, is, imo, better for GaW than YI and Smashville. "But YI and Smashville have platforms, I thought that helped GaW?" Well, due to Smashvilles platform moving, it helps him with mine laying potential and you can't really use the platform to approach, if the Snake player is smart and you are smart too, then he'll probably just end up on the other side of the stage away from the platform with no damage, and he'll still be throwing grenades. Whereas FD is the exact same, except without the platform, making it easier to juggle, because this platform is moving, Snake can use it to get away, and Nairing through it to catch the snake isnt as amazing as on Battlefield. You can't really use it for mobility coz eventually it moves away from the Snake. Plus, the worse part is, the platform on Smashville can stop you from getting a gimp/lots of damage on the Snake, allowing him to catch a free ride back on stage. And in the Snake MU I know some GaWs will be relying on these gimps.

What about Yoshis? Well, the ghosts can also save Snake, for a start, but also, The platform in this case, whilst it does help GaW move around unlike Smashville, and you can sorta catch Snake with an Nair if he is on it (so it's good for juggling), the platform can be real useful for snake. You can use it to approach but you'll pretty much just telegraph yourself... Snake can lay mines on it (and it tilts which can make the mines hitbox angled and weird), Utilt will hit you if you are on the top platform and Snake is below, and so in some quick dot points
*It's harder to approach Snake on YI because he can abuse the platform more than you can use it.
*It's easier for him to camp and he can have an easier time getting back on stage but moreso the ledge
*The platform helps GaW juggle Snake when he is juggling Snake.

FD has none of these annoying traits, and you can get past the grenades and you can get snake in the air and you can juggle him and you can screw him up off the edge without worry on FD with GaW, and so it is better than YI and Smashville, and I really think this is true and not just my preference.

BF > Lylat > FD > Smashville > Yoshis
For Game and Watch. I will admit though, FD can be worse for a GaW if they have too much trouble getting past nades, and also if they are especially good with the Smashville platform that may overrule FDs benefits. Plus if Snakes don't know Smashville that well (which i think they all should... but anyway) that may also overrule it. But that's PvP stuff now.

NOW.
You may also have PS1 or Halberd as neutrals.

As a Snake player you want Halberd. As a GaW player I've already striked Halberd, so it's out of the question. Nothing needs to be said about the benefits for either player.

PS1 - Probably not really what you want. You can grenade camp GaW pretty well on this stage, from my understanding, but the platforms are the type that is good for juggling, but they won't really trap you on them coz they are small. If you do end up on a platform with some lag, and GaW is nearby, he can get some damage and/or put you in the air, but you know it's easy to not let this happen. also the edges of the stage really work on his favour when the battle is taken there, unless you guys have any tricks?

Stage transformations: Fire Stage is awesome for GaW. Forest Stage helps him for juggling a bunch. Water, I personally hate, and if you stayed at the windmill and they approached I'm sure you could cause a lot of pain to the GaW. The Rock transformation is good for you if you camp in the middle part I ASSUME. Like i just made that up. But seriously? GaW can juggle you here, but if you really want you can just make it to the other side of the big rock before GaW keeps juggling you. Watch out though! A Jump above the big rock that gets Uair'd by GaW can very easily kill! I forget if there are any more transformations.

All in all, With 7 starters :
BattleField > LylatCruise > PokemonStadiumOne > Final Destination > Smashville > Yoshis Island > Halberd
For the GaW main. The smallest gap out of all of those is probably Smashville and Final Destination, they are sort of interchangeable, and the two most likely stages you'll be playing on as a starter in this matchup, in my opinion.

TwentyTwo · Feb 17, 2010

G&W is a tricky matchup. Snake controls the flow of this matchup, but if you become make a mistake and are forced to approach G&W you get put into a really tough position.

His Bair - If full hopped then just shield it out. If short hopped you SDI and back air him back. However, I don't think there is a way he can space it to avoid a nade if we're holding it and walking at him backward. If you're on the approach, this is the way, walk backward with a nade, then either shield and wait or roll away. Either way this nade is pretty good about keeping you safe.

Like any other character if we're in the air he does bad things to us. Uair to kill our momentum, making it hard to b-reverse and mix it up. Nair does a lot of dmg.

He has a dthrow techchase similar to ours, not as good though. And we have the best tech roll(can he punish our forward one?), so mix it up, and you should not get hit by his Usmash chase. On the other side, he has a pretty bad tech roll, so use the dthrow, his get up attack doesn't push us back, so you can shield to wait and see.

We're not a hard counter like we used to think, but we do win the matchup. 60:40 imo.

Bizkit047 · Feb 18, 2010

I'm not too knowledgeable at this matchup, but I'll share some of what I know.

Overall, Snake beats G&W somewhat well, but it's not an easy matchup by any means due to G&W having good juggles, great kill power, good KO setups, and his bucket braking momentum canceling. For stages, less platforms the better. Ban RC for sure against G&W. His aerial game will poke you to death and you'll probably die to a Uair faster than you ever should. For counterpicks, go with FD. Snake ***** G&W on FD IMO. Halberd is an option too if you're good at avoiding smashes from G&W, as utilt will KO G&W early.

Most G&W approach with the obvious Bair horizontally. Twenty Two already covered it pretty well with Snakes options. If you choose to shield it all, do realize the G&W may Up B immediately after to avoid punishment, so your window of punishing it is slim.

If G&W is above you, always expect the Dair. It goes through a lot of moves. It has landing lag though, so if it's not spaced well you can punish. Dair will hit you if the G&W lands on a platform, but I'm sure you can duck it and attempt to punish.

Be careful at low percents. G&W can juggle you very well with Utilts, Nair, etc. G&W's ground game is very bad vs Snake, so I wouldn't expect many approaches from G&W that aren't a Fair/Dair/Nair/Bair. Do beware of G&W's dash attack near the ledge, as it can stage spike you.

The worst thing about this matchup for Snake is how early G&W can KO Snake. Snake isn't used to this. You have to really learn to mix up your landing, so that you're not landing into a fully charged Usmash every time. Pivot Nading and staying away from G&W while landing is very wise. Other than that, G&W will have a very hard time KOing you due to his smashing all being predictable. Fair is his only other reasonable KO option besides his smashes, so beware of that during recovery over the edge, G&W loves to chase you with that.

Dthrow doesn't **** G&W as much as it used to. G&W has a terrible roll, but he has an option of getting up (not get up attack) and Up Bing immediately to avoid the tech chase. You can't really react to this, so you'd have to predict it. If you do, you can punish right before the Up B. Just be aware of this. The G&W will probably mix it up if he gets punished once, so be aware.

And of course, beware of getting 9'd. G&W players would most likely only do this when you're at low %'s or in a desperate situation to try to get a free early KO.

I'd stand grounded during this matchup. There's no reason to really jump around like a lunatic trying to Bair/Uair/Nair/etc. Other than that, just play smart. Camp all day if you want, G&W can't camp you back other than retreating Bairs that you can beat with nades.

I'm going to go with 60:40 Snake too.

napZzz · Feb 18, 2010

Since 22 and bizkit already had such fantastic posts I'll just throw in a few things.

As long as you camp him properly and dont fall for any tricks like planking shenanigans or whatever kind of on stage stuff he might have you should be fine. Literally, just nade+ftilt. That joke should work pretty well with this matchup, GnW dies early and he will have a difficult time killing snake because of how hard it is to get near him.

Dont go around doing anything dumb like air dodging into a smash attack or something too, i can see that as one of his few chances to kill you is when you're falling. Dont let things like that happen and you SHOULD be fine

6/4 snakes favor

6Mizu · Feb 18, 2010

gay!
Everyone made such "descriptive" posts. I'll just put up the MU ratio. >.>

60/40 Snake's fav.

Limeee · Feb 18, 2010

a GnW in my region likes to just hop around me, with up-B's and dairs.

How do i punish that kind of stuff. Full hop'd bairs are really good for GnW in this match up.

and btw, if the GnW trys to up-b near the ceiling, just bair. thats how i beat one of the best players in alberta

TwentyTwo · Feb 18, 2010

jujitsutide said:
a GnW in my region likes to just hop around me, with up-B's and dairs.

How do i punish that kind of stuff. Full hop'd bairs are really good for GnW in this match up.

and btw, if the GnW trys to up-b near the ceiling, just bair. thats how i beat one of the best players in alberta

Don't go head on against the key as bizkit said, use the general anti air stuff though. Utilt, Usmash, soft toss nades, or just put c4s down near you so it's unsafe to key/land near you.

A2ZOMG · Feb 20, 2010

Matchup is stage dependent, overall in Snake's favor, but I think you guys already covered everything that matters otherwise so good job.

It's worth noting that G&W can land fullhop F-airs and B-airs on Snake pretty easily if you don't duck, and that he has the range to punish F-tilt out of shield with those aerials.

If he gets a lead on platformed stages, it's pretty hard for Snake to do anything if he chooses to stall furthermore. Judgement 4-9 hit Snake out of Cypher, so it's actually one of his best options for edgeguarding Snake.

PentaSalia · Feb 20, 2010

Bizkit047 said:
Dthrow doesn't **** G&W as much as it used to. G&W has a terrible roll, but he has an option of getting up (not get up attack) and Up Bing immediately to avoid the tech chase. You can't really react to this, so you'd have to predict it. If you do, you can punish right before the Up B. Just be aware of this. The G&W will probably mix it up if he gets punished once, so be aware.

ya,i don't see alot of snakes do this lol
snake's second hit from ftilt gets G&W if he tries to get up only.
Though ya,once you do this,they'll be aware lol.

otherwise, everythings been pretty much covered lol
40:60 ;/

Alphicans · Feb 20, 2010

This match-up is really fun. Personally I think Gaw goes almost even with snake, but you have to play really well, with minimal mistakes, and with a character like snake who can punish so easily and so viciously, that sounds like a very difficult task. I think the key for GaW is to just wait and wait and wait. I think dthrow is useless in this match-up, not because it's bad but because uthrow is way better, like infinitely better. If played right, it's a free 30% per uthrow, where as a dthrow doesn't guarantee this damage output due to snake's long roll and weaker follow ups. The key is to abuse his ****ty aerial mobility and use a lot of uair to keep him up there. When snake is on a platform, I think uair is a safer option since it strips his gernades away from him, and still does decent shield pressure, and you can follow up with a nair without any risk of getting blown up.

Killing snake is difficult, as it is for most characters, but again I feel the best way to get around this hurdle is to keep him in the air as long as possible with uair and finish off with a quick usmash. I've gotten kills on snake at like 80% using this strategy, and pretty consistently at that.

Honestly, uair is the best move for this match-up, it's seriously a God send. I don't see enough of it being used in the match-up, and it really closes the gap between the characters. Once GaW's start abusing this against snake, we'll see GaWs doing a lot better.

My m/u ratio is 55:45 for snake.

moyshe · Feb 20, 2010

Wellll ok, Snake shuts down pretty much everything GaW does. Alphicans could not be farther off on his ratio. (GOOD SNAKES) we wont be able to kill for a pretty long time. And after a couple hits we will be in kill range unlike on our side were gonna have sit there racking up damage and trying to not to approach you. On halbred Utilt kills GaW at 60%. Pretty much everything out prioritizes our dair, and if you drop a grenade when we Shop a bair were gonna end up taking more damage then you. this match up is extremely one sided.
65:35

Mister Cadaver · Feb 20, 2010

60:40 sounds about right to me as well, though the only G&W I ever play is NOJ.

Attila_ · Feb 20, 2010

ill do a proper post tonight, but in the meantime, ill just say that getting hit by his bair is better than shielding it. SDI through him to bair is actually pretty easy and punishes hard.

Splice · Feb 20, 2010

Uh just some small points... A lot of it's super obvious but I felt like making a post.

*GaW can use Bair to defend against nades whilst approaching if you are just throwing them and not being smart and dropping them on the ground etc.

*What shmot said about getting hit by bair and then SDIing to attack is a good idea but, if you don't SDI it fast enough, GaW can UpB away, and plus GaW can space so only the last couple of hits of Bair hit and you won't be able to punish it if you get hit. And don't forget if GaW Bairs into the ground there can be an extra hit that will hit you away so if you don't sheild that you will not be able to punish GaW anyway.
So I think trying to punish from sheild and other tactics is better than just getting hit by it overall.

*GaW can spike your cypher with Dair. This happens rarely I'd imagine, but you'd feel pretty stupid if it happened to you

*Even if you B-Reverse a grenade as you recover, GaW can Uair you and make it not work, so you have to be smart about getting to the ground.

*If GaW is too aggressive, and tries to Fair you as you are falling from high up to get to the ledge, you can Fair spike them. If they airdodge you should still be able to recover to the stage, so if they telegraph an Fair than you can Fair them back. Don't get psyched though.

*GaW has a hard time tech chasing Snake due to his long roll, and I'm pretty sure GaW should be throwing Snake upwards out of grab, so be prepared for that.

*Mortar Slide is often telegraphed by Snakes and GaW can Fsmash this quite easily because of its long lasting hit box.

*GaW can use bucket to blow up Dsmash Snake mines without getting hit.

*If GaW is on the ledge and is sharking you to make you move away, you can Bair stage spike him if you predict this and he Nairs/Uairs to far into the stage. Risky though...

*Often when I'm in the air, foolish snakes try to Usmash or Mortar Slide to the edge and Usmash me. This is bad... GaW can Dair through the flying bomb and punish your lag, and if you are on the edge this can even hit you offstage. I almost always end up Dairing through the bomb and then Dair hitting them, or I'm too slow and they roll away and I manage to grab them at the end of the roll or something like that.

Pretty much, GaW is going to be trying to approach, and not necessarily with Bair. An approach is succesful for him if it gets you in the air. That's the gameplan for GaW, get Snake above you. GaW can weave around the grenades quite gracefully, so whilst they really make the MU tough, don't expect them to just 'work'. You'll have to be tactical with the grenades. Also, if you are in a sort of advantageous position on stage, and you are trying to use a physical attack on GaW like Ftilt or something, beware: The risk of getting hit just once, and that putting you into the air so GaW can juggle you, is often not worth the reward of getting an Ftilt/Single attack that's unlikely to follow up. BTW it may be just me, but personally when I fight a Snake I find Snakes Ftilt to be especially annoying.

Strike - Final Destination, Battlefield (I'm not to sure on this)
Ban - Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, stages that have transformations and gimmicks that may make you jump.
Counterpick - Halberd. Beware of sharking though, but if GaW goes to high you can Utilt him from above. I don't know what Snake would CP if i banned Halberd...

60:40 in Snakes favour.
It shouldn't be any worse than that for GaW, really.

Alphicans · Feb 21, 2010

thesoviet said:
Wellll ok, Snake shuts down pretty much everything GaW does. Alphicans could not be farther off on his ratio. (GOOD SNAKES) we wont be able to kill for a pretty long time. And after a couple hits we will be in kill range unlike on our side were gonna have sit there racking up damage and trying to not to approach you. On halbred Utilt kills GaW at 60%. Pretty much everything out prioritizes our dair, and if you drop a grenade when we Shop a bair were gonna end up taking more damage then you. this match up is extremely one sided.
65:35

You didn't really back any of this up. No reliable moves out prioritize dair, and when I use dair I don't get hit out of it, it gets shielded and then ftilted. If you're dying at 60% on any stage, you're doing something fatally wrong >_>. Halberd's ceiling is lower, but moves only kill 5-7% lower, so at lowest, you should be dying at like 80-90. I play good snakes, not outstanding snakes, but good enough snakes to make it so I'd rather use my falco than my GaW to vs them (even though I think I could probably win with GaW). If they have a gernade in their hand don't bair them... simple as that. Like how stupid do you have to be to get hit by a gernade snake is holding? It's such a stupid mistake so many people make, and shouldn't be considered a part of a match-up when discussing this stuff. It isn't very often where I see good players running into snake's gernades, and that's how it should be. Snake's gernades are for provoking an action, and to do chip damage (hit with the gernade itself) and MAYBE if the snake is lucky, do full explosive damage with the gernade.

Striking FD is silly btw. FD is probably GaW's worst neutral. Striking lylat/BF is probably the smartest, and then you'll end up playing on smashville or YI.

Splice · Feb 21, 2010

Alphicans said:
Striking FD is silly btw. FD is probably GaW's worst neutral. Striking lylat/BF is probably the smartest, and then you'll end up playing on smashville or YI.

Oh yeah, Lylat :laugh:

Yeah I forgot about that stage... Pretend i said that instead!

Still, I'd rather play a snake on FD than YI and Smashville.
IMO, the platform on Yoshis makes it much harder to deal with grenades, and Smashville is like FD except it's platform can actually help snake, rather than make him easy to juggle.

Alphicans · Feb 21, 2010

Exactly, GaW will strike FD most likely, and you'll get him on two stages he doesn't like. With the 5 neutral system GaW gets ****ed over by stage striking no matter what, 7 neutrals is a different story.

Underload · Feb 21, 2010

So G&W's worst neutral is arguably FD, and his best is arguably BF? Is that what I should be getting? I'm a bit confused.

Alphicans · Feb 21, 2010

Well like, 3/5 are pretty bad for GaW, but BF and lylat are decent.

Bizkit047 · Feb 21, 2010

I would definitely say FD is G&W's worst, and BF is his best. The triple platform on BF gives G&W a really easy time juggling Snake. For Lylat, I think it's good for both chars. Platforms for G&W, good stage control for Snake with hidden C4/mines/nades. YI is probably a toss up between the two, and I think SV is pretty close to FD so I wouldn't strike that over YI/BF.

theONEjanitor · Feb 21, 2010

this matchup is grenades and uptilts and quick kills

i think its 65/35 if not 70/30

i really don't see what GW has going for him in this matchup.

Berserker. · Feb 21, 2010

Since you guys covered up almost everything, I'll just put my ratio:

60:40

smashkng · Feb 22, 2010

It's like 70/30 Snake in FD. No plataforms makes the matchup for G&W extremely hard.

Splice · Feb 22, 2010

Ok so with the five starters (not neutrals

)

It really depends on juggling.

In my opinion I would put Battlefield, Lylat, FD, Smashville, Yoshis, in order of what I like vs Snake. Here lets add some description as to why.

On Battlefield the platforms make it easier for GaW to keep juggling Snake, without making it easier for Snake to get to the ground by giving him the option of landing on them; it's easy for GaW to just Nair you when you land on a platform, so it helps reduce your landing potential and increasing GaWs mobility.
Not to mention that this stage is pretty easy to dodge grenades and due to the platforms taking up most of the space GaW will be more succesful and safe in his attempts to get snake in the air.
Seriously if you end up playing on this stage as a neutral, and you are the Snake player, you messed up, or maybe you have weird preferences...

Then Lylat is more of the same, except the platforms don't restrict Snake from landing as much so that's good. The tilted ledges that GaWs Nair sharks through are really good for helping him get back on stage and for helping him keep you off though, so this stage is still good for GaW imo. It's hard to see your mines, but a good player will remember where those mines are.

Now srs Business...

FD, is, imo, better for GaW than YI and Smashville. "But YI and Smashville have platforms, I thought that helped GaW?" Well, due to Smashvilles platform moving, it helps him with mine laying potential and you can't really use the platform to approach, if the Snake player is smart and you are smart too, then he'll probably just end up on the other side of the stage away from the platform with no damage, and he'll still be throwing grenades. Whereas FD is the exact same, except without the platform, making it easier to juggle, because this platform is moving, Snake can use it to get away, and Nairing through it to catch the snake isnt as amazing as on Battlefield. You can't really use it for mobility coz eventually it moves away from the Snake. Plus, the worse part is, the platform on Smashville can stop you from getting a gimp/lots of damage on the Snake, allowing him to catch a free ride back on stage. And in the Snake MU I know some GaWs will be relying on these gimps.

What about Yoshis? Well, the ghosts can also save Snake, for a start, but also, The platform in this case, whilst it does help GaW move around unlike Smashville, and you can sorta catch Snake with an Nair if he is on it (so it's good for juggling), the platform can be real useful for snake. You can use it to approach but you'll pretty much just telegraph yourself... Snake can lay mines on it (and it tilts which can make the mines hitbox angled and weird), Utilt will hit you if you are on the top platform and Snake is below, and so in some quick dot points
*It's harder to approach Snake on YI because he can abuse the platform more than you can use it.
*It's easier for him to camp and he can have an easier time getting back on stage but moreso the ledge
*The platform helps GaW juggle Snake when he is juggling Snake.

FD has none of these annoying traits, and you can get past the grenades and you can get snake in the air and you can juggle him and you can screw him up off the edge without worry on FD with GaW, and so it is better than YI and Smashville, and I really think this is true and not just my preference.

BF > Lylat > FD > Smashville > Yoshis
For Game and Watch. I will admit though, FD can be worse for a GaW if they have too much trouble getting past nades, and also if they are especially good with the Smashville platform that may overrule FDs benefits. Plus if Snakes don't know Smashville that well (which i think they all should... but anyway) that may also overrule it. But that's PvP stuff now.

NOW.
You may also have PS1 or Halberd as neutrals.

As a Snake player you want Halberd. As a GaW player I've already striked Halberd, so it's out of the question. Nothing needs to be said about the benefits for either player.

PS1 - Probably not really what you want. You can grenade camp GaW pretty well on this stage, from my understanding, but the platforms are the type that is good for juggling, but they won't really trap you on them coz they are small. If you do end up on a platform with some lag, and GaW is nearby, he can get some damage and/or put you in the air, but you know it's easy to not let this happen. also the edges of the stage really work on his favour when the battle is taken there, unless you guys have any tricks?

Stage transformations: Fire Stage is awesome for GaW. Forest Stage helps him for juggling a bunch. Water, I personally hate, and if you stayed at the windmill and they approached I'm sure you could cause a lot of pain to the GaW. The Rock transformation is good for you if you camp in the middle part I ASSUME. Like i just made that up. But seriously? GaW can juggle you here, but if you really want you can just make it to the other side of the big rock before GaW keeps juggling you. Watch out though! A Jump above the big rock that gets Uair'd by GaW can very easily kill! I forget if there are any more transformations.

All in all, With 7 starters :
BattleField > LylatCruise > PokemonStadiumOne > Final Destination > Smashville > Yoshis Island > Halberd
For the GaW main. The smallest gap out of all of those is probably Smashville and Final Destination, they are sort of interchangeable, and the two most likely stages you'll be playing on as a starter in this matchup, in my opinion.

Alphicans · Feb 22, 2010

Halberd is not out of the question at all. The low ceiling is can be intimidating at first, but it can also help you since a lot of GaW's moves kill vertically, and also I believe the sides are wider so it's easier to bucket brake (I am not really sure though). The low ceiling also doesn't actually kill that much lower, unless you're on the platform. Recovering and getting back to the stage becomes a lot easier due to how amazing GaW's upB is, so going through the middle of the stage and landing on the top platform is definitely a viable, almost non-punishable option. The platform also acts a lot like BF's platforms.

I'd say Battlefield > Lylat > Halberd > PS1 > FD > Smashville > Yoshi's Island.

Splice · Feb 23, 2010

Snakes Utilt is still more dangerous on Halberd, and your vertical kill moves are harder to land, except Uair.

The sides are wider but unless you are getting killed with Fsmash or Ftilt or Bair, it doesn't matter that much, because Snake wants to kill you up.

"The platform". Exactly. That platform does not help you. It makes it a little awkward to get around and Snake has no real trouble with it except you can Dthrow tech chase him on it.

Getting back on stage is easier for GaW on Halberd yep, but if Snake has the % lead you can't really abuse sharking and he can beat it anyway.

All you did was claim that surviving on Halberd is not as hard as it seems, but it's still harder than on other stages and provides no real match changing benefits.

I don't know how that makes Halberd the 3rd best of the 7 for GaW when vsing Snake, and I strongly disagree.

Toneh · Feb 26, 2010

avoid the 9-hammer and its auto win

Berserker. · Feb 27, 2010

t's not always "auto win"

Alphicans · Feb 27, 2010

Splice said:
Snakes Utilt is still more dangerous on Halberd, and your vertical kill moves are harder to land, except Uair.

What? I fail to see how they are harder to land on this stage compared to other stages.

The sides are wider but unless you are getting killed with Fsmash or Ftilt or Bair, it doesn't matter that much, because Snake wants to kill you up.

It happens pretty often. A fresh ftilt will kill you on normal stages at highish percentages. Also, when in the air if snake hits you with the first hit of ftilt it's pretty deadly. Don't underestimate his horizontal kill potential, it's still really good.

"The platform". Exactly. That platform does not help you. It makes it a little awkward to get around and Snake has no real trouble with it except you can Dthrow tech chase him on it.

The platform helps you tons since it covers most of the ground when on the first part of the stage, making it really easy to pressure him if you get him in the air. GaW has troubles on the platform as well, but I'd have to say it helps GaW a bit more than snake, mainly because of how you'll want snake above you at all times ideally anyways. This platform makes that more possible.

Getting back on stage is easier for GaW on Halberd yep, but if Snake has the % lead you can't really abuse sharking and he can beat it anyway.

K well you can't really effectively shark anyways. Another option to get onto the stage is pretty valuable to me, especially in this match-up. There is not much to argue here, this aspect of the stage helps GaW.

All you did was claim that surviving on Halberd is not as hard as it seems, but it's still harder than on other stages and provides no real match changing benefits.

That's all I claimed? Wtf. What about the rest of this post?

I don't know how that makes Halberd the 3rd best of the 7 for GaW when vsing Snake, and I strongly disagree.

Responses in bold.

Splice · Feb 28, 2010

I find that the Platform makes it harder to land Usmash and Dsmash (Dsmash can kill up).
Utilt is also a vertical kill move for GaW, I don't really use it enough yet, so I couldn't say if it's harder to land.

Also i didn't mean to imply that Ftilt and Bair kills dont happen often for Snake, I was just saying he'll be killing you earlier with Utilt. Yes he can still kill you vertically, but that doesn't make the stage better for GaW.

The platform makes it easier to juggle Snake, and that's always good. It does not, however, help you get him into the air in the first place, and that's what I (and i assume other GaWs) have more trouble with then actually juggling once you get them in the air.

Yes, the recovery potential GaW has on Halberd is good for him. I agree.

That last post had more content by you Alphicans. You gave some reasons why you think Halberd isnt as bad as it seems, but I don't see how that made it better than the other stages for GaW. The points you listed for Halberd being good, true or not, didn't show me how it was better than the other starter stages for gaw, just how it was a little better than I thought. Although i still think it's bad

snake~ · Mar 1, 2011

Take out a grenade and just dodge all air moves. Also, the turtle can get quite annoying but can simply be avoided by pulling out a grenade and shielding.

etecoon · Mar 1, 2011

necro...

it's become relevant though, planking is going to be legal for everyone but MK apparently thanks to the brawl illumina-err, BBR ruleset committee, I think GAW might beat snake now.

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