Matchup Discussion - Wario

DtJ Hilt · Feb 19, 2010

Wario

Bah, Wario... such a weird character. Wario is full of contradictions, being one of the heavy characters of the game, though being one of the fastest in the air. Wario's known for his amazing air game, while we're known for the opposite. Can we deal with Wario's air game and priority? (I know almost nothing about the wario matchup, so yeah >_>)

Anyways:

DISCUSS!

Turazrok · Feb 19, 2010

I''ve played wario once. I've played as wario more. He likes to air camp, has a pretty decent dacus, great kill move in waft, good juggler, and can gimp us.

Noa. · Feb 19, 2010

Some basic tips for Wario:
Stay Mobile

Nair and pivot grab is good

Expect the airdodges and spotdodges

Keep throwing pikmin when he's not in your face.

You can grab Wario off his bike.

Wario's dair is beaten by our utilt.

Make sure you know the time for wafts being charged. Not that I know them. x.x

I don't really know much about Wario.

Turazrok · Feb 19, 2010

2 minutes to full charge, but they will want to use it before then. Expect after 1:30.

Sky Pirate · Feb 20, 2010

Let's see... They can gimp us easily with Fair, his Dair goes through our Usmash, watch for falling Bites, FD seems pretty good, his Fsmash has super armor (DUH), umm...
I don't think we can grab them off the bike if they pull the bike up. Not certain, though.
I also think his UpB blows our pikmin off the top. Anyone want to test?

OH! I've only ever had this happen to me on wifi, but don't get hit with his bike when he throws it off. It's an instant gimp and I accidentally pushed back into it and ended up getting hit four times. It bounces! ^^;

I can't really contribute much since the only times I fight offline Wario is in doubles (rarely).

RichBrown · Feb 20, 2010

Ah, this matchup. This matchup really pisses me off, because I know it really well after countless hours of playing 1 on 1 with Fiction all summer... but I have loads of trouble explaining it.

uhhh

Don't try to shieldgrab his nair. He can sidestep or do anything, so just don't try.

A good Wario will try to bait the pivot grab, by jumping towards you, making it seem like he's gonna land in front of you, then jumping at the last possible moment and then dairing you.

If they pull the bike up, you can't grab, so just shield it (unless you notice they NEVER pull the bike up).

If you can get a wheel off the bike, take one, then camp sideB a little, and think of the wheel as an assist purple, if that makes any sense.

Utilt is super good because it outprioritizes dair (and I think other stuff but I'm not sure)

Just stay very, very mobile. You're gonna be using every single one of your moves for this matchup. Man I wish I could give you guys more because like I said I used to play this matchup all the time and I feel like I'm really good at it, but this matchup is very hard to articulate because there's just so many nuances :/

Dabuz · Feb 20, 2010

Turazrok said:
115 seconds to full charge, but they will want to use it before then. Expect after 55 seconds.

someone needs to igure out the timing but out yellow upsmash beats his dair, and there is a certain angle where all our upsmashes beat his dair (no joke)

ummmmm...don't camp wario, that fart is dangerous and ironically olimar can play a really good pressure game on him, you needs small tight stages like BF to keep up with him and use that pressure, upsmash should always be saved for the kill, always, uptilt + nair are alwasy better options anyway

whistle > edgegaurding tactics except dair and nair

if you force him to up-b, punish...its just sooooo bad

tires can lead to kill opportunities for both you and wario

save your purples, side-b with purples **** him so hard

don't throw out moves unless you think they can hit, wario is a bait master

dair can beat our upair

on landing most warios will mix up fsmash or grab with occasional spot dodges before hand

if wario trys to escape early by button mashing our grab, we actually have an air grab release upsmash, upair, and nair

wario is very limited in kill moves

if wario gets a charged fart that can kill you stop being aggressive and pressuring him, just camp and try to lure out that fart with everything you can until he uses it, because fart will be wario's most common kill move

expect wario to live to about 130% against us on average

yellows + purples are our best pikmin in this matchup

jab is surprisingly good against him if hes aerial

up-b (not shorthopped) covers a lot of angles wario like to stay at

we lose at all angles

i feel this matchup is pretty disadvantageous for us

Today · Feb 20, 2010

Dair can also beat upsmash. Or just up anything.
Doesn't the Wario boards see this as even?

If they pull the bike up, you can't grab, so just shield it (unless you notice they NEVER pull the bike up).

Huh.. I remember playing Hiltdrew on wifi and he went Wario. Did the bike thingie and I grabbed him off the bike.

Eh.. I'm not like super smart when it comes to the knowledge of Olimar, but I kind of don't think this matchup is like horrible. Wario likes to camp in the air and Oli camps on the ground. If Wario gets above you don't usmash or uair and just run while throwing Pikmin or utilt. And when he approaches you from the ground or go after just grab him.
I have a friend who picked up Wario when I picked up Olimar. Yeah, Oli does get gimped pretty easily by Wario but we didn't run into too many problems. Wario's down smash probably won't hit you and has a lot of lag so it's easy to grab him from that. Pretty much the easier way he'll try and go for a kill is f-smash or uair. And Oli usually won't be in the air for an uair. And if you are just whistle. And if he tries to go for a f-smash he'll be on the ground so he's in your territory meaning grab his butt.
I say maybe 55:45 Wario's favor. Mainly because of usmash, uair, but we have u-tilt, too. And I can imagine purples are good to keep him away.

professor mgw · Feb 20, 2010

~ Olimar vs Wario 50:50 (personally)

Wario great air game and mobility in the air makes this match up pretty even. He's hardly ever on the ground b/c he has so much advantage in the air, he can gimp us quite well with f-air his motorcycle being thrown off the stage and other arieals. His priority and speed kind of makes this a chasing and baiting game. He's to fast and will reach you in an instant, Pivot grabs, run then SH b-air are good for punishing missed d-airs. You can't really camp wario on small stages such as bf due to the platforms mixed with his air prowess, so using pikmin that dabuz mentioned (Y&P) sre excellent in this match-up. Stay away from the edge as always, you can't really afford to get knocked off the stage fighting wario cause he can capatilize on it pretty harsly. In the end you need to be on guard at all times.

BOB SAGET! · Feb 20, 2010

He's gonna try to weave in and out with aerials and airdodges. Bite punishes our spotdodge aswell as our shield so we should keep our distance.

Tin Man · Feb 20, 2010

Turazrok said:
2 minutes to full charge, but they will want to use it before then. Expect after 1:30.

the waft is stronger in terms of killing at 1:30.

now then.

Wario is faster than us anywhere. His air speed is faster than our running speed. We have to keep the pressure but like Dabuz said, we get beat at every angle. We have to be better than the wario to win. Our pikmin have low priority so we can't attack him head on. We has to watch the waft. We has to watch our recovery, he can gimp us very well. Purples are really gud. We have to get him out of there ASAP. Camping aint that great, he can get out of our camping at an angle where we simply can't reach him. this is all because we throw our pikmin and he is coming at us Fairing/Dairing/Nairing his war through or simply above our range (don't double jump to hit him with pikmin toss lol). Now wario is close to us and we have less pikmin. Fsmash I find to be really useful. use it as he is landing, Warios love to retreat their aerial attacks. Don't shield wario for the love of gawd D:. Our shield is small so dair ***** it, nuff seid, and bite wont be any gud for us either. Watch out for wario biting us while we are whistling, thats pretty uch auto gimp right there

-Coco- · Feb 20, 2010

I honestly think this matchup is even they both have certain things on eachother

but yeah as previously stated keep moving do not stop and if hes above you u tilt

Sky Pirate · Feb 20, 2010

If you don't mind, I have a few questions.

dabuz said:
uptilt + nair are alwasy better options anyway

Which of Wario's attacks beat out our Nair/Utilt (other than bite)?

dabuz said:
dair can beat our upair

Even Yellow Uair?

dabuz said:
if wario trys to escape early by button mashing our grab, we actually have an air grab release upsmash, upair, and nair

Edit: WOW, NEVER MIND. I'm ********.

Asa · Feb 20, 2010

yellow uair beats out wario's dair

and as far as i know nair/utilt beat out dair( which is what you'd use it for i'm assuming) and his other aerials

DefinitelyNotFino · Feb 21, 2010

Draconoa44 said:
Some basic tips for Wario:
Stay Mobile

Nair and pivot grab is good

Expect the airdodges and spotdodges

Keep throwing pikmin when he's not in your face.

You can grab Wario off his bike. (if he's not doing a wheely)

Wario's dair is beaten by our utilt.

I don't really know much about Wario.

Everything here is right... one edit in red. Good job as always draco

SkyPirateCoud said:
FD seems pretty good, his Fsmash has super armor (DUH), umm...

Im' not sure about that, I would much rather fight wario forced to be in close quarters so he can't run away.
Up for debate on that though.
His fsmash is also really good (and a frame trap, as well as being a good option out of landing aerial dodges and spot dodges).

RichBrown said:
If they pull the bike up, you can't grab, so just shield it (unless you notice they NEVER pull the bike up).

Utilt is super good because it outprioritizes dair (and I think other stuff but I'm not sure)

Just stay very, very mobile. You're gonna be using every single one of your moves for this matchup. Man I wish I could give you guys more because like I said I used to play this matchup all the time and I feel like I'm really good at it, but this matchup is very hard to articulate because there's just so many nuances :/

Either fsmash the bike or shield + jab. Note when your shield takes an attack, the hitbox no longer affects you (for this reason we can do stuff like punish pikachu for thunder even when he's still in thunder animation).

Utilt beats everything or clanks except for bite and the super armor frames of fsmash iirc.

Mobility is key in lots of MUs I'm learning .-.

Sky Pirate · Feb 21, 2010

DefinitelyNotFino said:
Im' not sure about that, I would much rather fight wario forced to be in close quarters so he can't run away.

If he's somewhere like BF, can't he just stall on the platforms?
I suppose SV would be better than FD, though. Harder for him to flee horizontally and harder for him to screw around on the platforms.

Iunno.

DefinitelyNotFino said:
Utilt beats everything or clanks except for bite and the super armor frames of fsmash iirc.

Lovely. Sound like a fun new toy to play with.

DefinitelyNotFino · Feb 21, 2010

I like battlefield against wario .-.

Padô · Feb 22, 2010

Hey guys Hilt asked for some tips and here I'm.

I play several Olimars here in Brazil (specially Kovarish) so I think I can help you a lil here.

There are 3 things I suffer when I play against a good Olimar: His pivot grabs against my aerial landings, his **** yellow pikmin Uair and the Nair.

All of you good Olimar players can pivot any aerial if you predict correctly where your opponent is landing, you should abuse on this specially when camping under a platform. Seriously, camping under a platform is just a bad time for Wario against Olimar, you throw pikmins, if we try to catch you on the ground just pivot or FSmash if comming from above the platform SH Uair, our only reliable options are Dacus or SH Airdodge through you FSmash + Grab.

NEVER expect Wario to approach you from the ground too much, your ground game is just... superior so expect a lot of Sh Dairs, Fair and when in close combat OoS Nair which is really fast and is a FSmash/Grab setup. Get used to the aerial approaches and yellow Uair them for a good % rack. Oh, watch out for the overuse of fairs, they are a good GTFO move but on this matchup we just can Sheild and OoS any aerial (unless Uair).

I think what unbalances this matchup pretty much it's Wario's aerial **** and EdgeGuard. Whistle can work really well here but Wario got some moves that can simply mess with it like Bite or Nair's second hit, careful with those you might lose your jump sometimes and NONE Olimar player wants that. Nair and Fair will gimp you so watchout for those moves too.

About aerial **** I'd suggest you to FastFall some Nair to land safely or whistle if you predicts something that is coming airdodging WON'T WORK YOU ARE GETTING FARTED OR UAIR'ED or baited on a FSmash and those are our main kill moves.

Most of the Wario players will play this matchup putting as much pressure as necessary to take you of stage or onto the air so he can rack up good percentage and try a gimp. Don't hesitate to run sometimes and spam more than usual to distract Wario from being too agressive and get some % from Pikmin Throw.

Use your kill moves wisely a defensive Wario with a stock lead might be a pain in the *** to KO, just calm down and wait for an opening to purple USmash him otherwise he's just Powershield and grabbing you.

I'd suggest you picking YI and ABUSE as much as you can from under the platform camping, this might mess up some of the Wario approaches and might put you in a more confortable position while playing this match.

Remember that all of your Pikmin moves (unless Yellow Uair) will lose to our aerials, and your body moves will go through our moveset.

Overall: Wario 55:45 Olimar - just because of lame gimps, aerial **** and safer kill options.

Noa. · Mar 2, 2010

I think we just need to decide two more things bepre this discussion is complete. Stages and what we can do to Wario when we grab him at the ledge.

DtJ Hilt · Mar 2, 2010

I really don't like this matchup @_@ I'm not seeing anything that keeps it from being a solid 6:4 in wario's favor, but I don't have too much experience in the matchup so my opinion doesn't mean TOO much haha. It just seems with his aerial speed, weight, kill power, ability to get in incredibly easy, ability to force us to be the aggressor, priority over all but two or three of our attacks, and how helpless we are at the ledge against him, I'm not seeing too many pros to outweigh the cons.

kirbywizard · Mar 2, 2010

Trying to fight a Wario on FD is like trying to swat a fly using only your hand. I would think that BF would be a decent stage against Wario but he manages to have an ok time flying like a bird thanks to the platforms. I've never really played Wario on RC and that seems like something that could have some good results. Feels like only SV or YI would work out evenly in this matchup.

Yellow pikmin seems god send thanks to their extra range.

Sky Pirate · Mar 3, 2010

Your phrasing makes it seem to me that you're implying that taking Wario to RC might be a good idea.

It REALLY isn't.

Denti · Mar 3, 2010

Denti's sexy words of epicness.

olimar is on a boat, that is all

anyways, about the wario MU...

My statistics say 45-55 wario

(if wario didn't have fart then 60-40 olimar)

Key tips for olimar ADV

up smash can beat dair when at a certain angle, we need to test this and confirm the situations best suited for this tactic.

when wario comes at a diagonal threw the air at you saving tricky pikmin tethers can shake them up a bit.

you can grab them off their bike unless they pull up to do a wheelie then you can F smash it. maybe F smash against bike is pikmin dependable idk

Wario's evil plots against olimar.

he'll kill you with fart a lot, don't let them get the time to wait for a charging fart, really don't. but fart will charge never the less, so in the timing from 1 min to 2 min of fart charge avoid wario so you don't die too early from it. Wario has just as much of a hard time hitting you as you do hitting him. without fart wario is a really bad killer.

Warios can shield grab like mad so when falling back onto the stage try not to attack him predictably.

stage thoughts?

I'd strike sv and ps1. BF YI and FD can make wario more predictable if you watch harder imo, plus BF platforms **** wario and YI platform ***** wario. FD is just really flat and campy, good for pikmin tossing.

I'd counterpick wario to halberd or YI.

what about lylat for olimar? opinions? discuss? :chuckle:

Ban brinstar.

Sky Pirate · Mar 3, 2010

I like jumping toward Wario and whistle bouncing away to bait out a Bite or fart.
Not sure how effective it actually is in the long run, though.

Denti · Mar 3, 2010

SkyPirateCoud said:
I like jumping toward Wario and whistle bouncing away to bait out a Bite or fart.
Not sure how effective it actually is in the long run, though.

that sounds like an extremely useful tactic, i'm going to steal it

and call it my own trick muahahahaha

Scarhi · Mar 4, 2010

When I can't grab Wario out of his bike, I like shielding it then Usmashing him out of shield when he gets right above Olimar's head. (I dunno if the bike might kill the pikmin if you don't time it right, but on the few times I tried this, it worked)

Greward · Mar 4, 2010

good warios will waft camp us because the waft completely ***** olimar. It will kill us at ridiculous % because of our incredible recovery and it's not that difficult to get in. Our pikmin toss is not really good to camp wario, against good warios i dont think we would get more than 10% damage per minut if he's waft camping, which it's really low. Try to combo wario a lot at the beginning of the stock because it's all we have got. Aggro warios are easier.
6-4 wario's adv

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 4, 2010

greward sucks

kirbywizard · Mar 4, 2010

Well if all else fails we can just run away for a large period of time.

PhantomX · Mar 5, 2010

Running away means Wario is going to get fart. Fart can kill you at like 20% by gimping you, lol. Bike won't kill your upsmash Pikmin. If he's tilting the bike go for the shield > upsmash and it will always beat it. Upsmash doesn't beat Wario's aerials based on angle, but on charge. If you've managed to charge some of the Pikmin usmashes to increase their priority, they will probably beat out Wario's aerials. This of course involves having at least a little bit of space, though.

Wario's sh goes perfectly over your grab/pivot grab to put him into punishment position, his nair will hit you if you whistle the first hit, and bite can gimp you guys incredibly easy. You DO run faster than he can move while nairing though, which is gay. Don't go to RC if the Wario knows how to play on that stage.

Padô · Mar 5, 2010

PhantomX said:
Running away means Wario is going to get fart. Fart can kill you at like 20% by gimping you, lol. Bike won't kill your upsmash Pikmin. If he's tilting the bike go for the shield > upsmash and it will always beat it. Upsmash doesn't beat Wario's aerials based on angle, but on charge. If you've managed to charge some of the Pikmin usmashes to increase their priority, they will probably beat out Wario's aerials. This of course involves having at least a little bit of space, though.

Wario's sh goes perfectly over your grab/pivot grab to put him into punishment position, his nair will hit you if you whistle the first hit, and bite can gimp you guys incredibly easy. You DO run faster than he can move while nairing though, which is gay. Don't go to RC if the Wario knows how to play on that stage.

Don't go RC If you are playing DMG.

Also, don't plank too much with LedgeDrop Uairs I've managed to Dair some Uairs while Olimar was going up and finished stage spiking him. Not saying it's a bad idea but don't make the Wario player get used to it.

About spam, a good Wario will obliterate the pikmins on his body WHILE approaching you with Dair/Nair/Uair so don't count on the Wario to stay on his place and kill the pikmins, as I said before, killing pikmins while approaching make the pressure on Olimar a lot more effective.

Dnyce · Mar 10, 2010

PhantomX said:
Running away means Wario is going to get fart. Fart can kill you at like 20% by gimping you, lol.

Problem: Waft has high potential kill power.

Assessment:
=Waft is most potent from t=1:20-50 from start and after use.
=Maximum effectiveness of waft is constrained by time.
=->Using it too early or too late significantly reduces effectiveness. Nevertheless still notable at t>1:50.
=The power of waft is a threat due to early kills.
=Waft set-ups are limited to point blank range or using his upward thrust like a projectile.
=Waft comes out on frame 5 when most effective; however, 9 at max with super armor frames 5-10.
=If missed, Wario has to wait out the time frame again.

Solution:
Usage of waft is quite obvious. Wario is forced to approach if he wishes to use waft. The time gives you insight to when he will start to bait it and the area of use is rather blunt. Considering the circumstances, the threat potential of waft isn't as significant as initially lead to believe. The ability to "get fart" and being able to land it are two different likelihoods.

PhantomX said:
Upsmash doesn't beat Wario's aerials based on angle, but on charge. If you've managed to charge some of the Pikmin usmashes to increase their priority, they will probably beat out Wario's aerials. This of course involves having at least a little bit of space, though.

Logic Error.
Correct me if I am wrong, but charging a smash does not grant it extra priority. Perhaps you are mistaken priority for the glitch-mechanic of "Pikmin rocketing?"

PhantomX said:
bite can gimp you guys incredibly easy.

Have you considered the option that Olimar doesn't attempt to mash free due to his gimp-ability? If I recall, the opponent is the one who controls how long he is in bite. Given proper circumstances, Olimar can force a suicide. Also recovering low and rising up-air is a good counter option to the situation.
However, the fact still remains that it can gimp Olimar easily. Point taken.

Noa. · Mar 10, 2010

Determining priority between two
moves is a pretty mess. Generally, the more damage an attack does, the higher priority. So charging a smash does increase it's priority.

Dnyce · Mar 10, 2010

Draconoa44 said:
Determining priority between two
moves is a pretty mess. Generally, the more damage an attack does, the higher priority. So charging a smash does increase it's priority.

I was under the impression that ground priority determination based on damage was differential to aerial priority. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought they were two separate entities.
Of course many other variables are to be considered and speculated upon (such as disjoints). I recall DanGR having an interesting theory on priority. Unfortunately he does not appear to be active as of late.

Problem:
Determine whether or not Olimar's up-smash beats Wario's down-air by percent damage basis.

Assessment:
=Information regarding damage output of Wario's down-air currently unavailable.
=->Substitute similar move to situation (Pikachu's forward-air). Both multi-hit and semi-disjoint.
=Pikachu's forward air deals 12% total (5% minimum).
=Accounting for variance in Pikmin color damage output, assume red Pikmin.
=Olimar's up-smash deals 12% when sour spotted.
p1 Priority of a move is determined by single hit-box clashes.
p2 Pikachu's minimum damage dealt with forward-air is 5%.
p3 Olimar's minimum damage dealt with up-smash is 12%.
p4 Olimar's attack does significantly more damage by single hit-box clash.
p5 Olimar's up-smash should beat out Pikachu's forward-air.
p6 Pikachu's forward-air out-prioritizes Olimar's up-smash.
*Note: Elemental difference was accounted for. Even a fully charged yellow up-smash can be out prioritized by Pikachu's forward-air.

Solution:
Increasing attack damage may be a one variable in determining priority; however, it is not a solid state. From experience, Wario's down-air behaves like Pikachu's forward-air in terms of beating our up-smash. Though logical error can be found by inductive reasoning, it is an accurate model to demonstrate the point. As previously stated, DanGR had a theory of grounded vs aerial priority as separate mechanics. Experience has led me to follow his theory.
I do believe inference of charge is still related to Pikmin rocketing.

thebrute7 · Mar 10, 2010

Against Wario I have found I like to have a lot of yellows. The extra range on attacks is a godsend and the higher arc on throw has let me get pikmin on Wario easier. I usually try to bait his fart and WAC it. Also watch for a chance to use uair on him since our uair will out-prioritize his dair if I remember correctly. However this is situautional. I ahve also found that when he tries to approach with SH airs a short dash in the other direction then a fsmash is a good idea ( you have to react really fast though).

I haven't done this MU a bunch but i would say 55:45 Wario.

Pete278 · Mar 11, 2010

What are the big grab releases we can do on Wario? Or is throwing just better in most cases?

Noa. · Mar 11, 2010

Dite, I was really saying that Oli's usmash beats Wario's dair. Just that charging a smash does increase it's priority. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Today · Mar 11, 2010

o-o; I really do wonder if Dite's a robot..

Gifts · Mar 15, 2010

Today said:
o-o; I really do wonder if Dite's a robot..

It seems like it. He knows everything. And for the most part he is usually correct. Haha, keep it up Dite.

Excellence · Mar 16, 2010

Wario vs Olimar is a pretty even match-up, I would say 55:45 in Wario's favor just because of how easy it is for him to KO Olimar once he gets close and how good he can be at getting close.

Matchup Discussion - Wario

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