TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Ratio:
Toon Link's advantages:
Wario's advantages:
Stages to Strike:
Stages to Ban:
Counterpick Stages:
Things to keep in mind:
Videos:
-
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Wario Matchup Discussion
- Thread starter TLMSheikant
- Start date
Ratio:
Toon Link's advantages:
Wario's advantages:
Stages to Strike:
Stages to Ban:
Counterpick Stages:
Things to keep in mind:
Videos:
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2007
- Messages
- 25,073
- Switch FC
- 8132-9932-4710
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Me vs. Timotee (Wario)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAScC3gbXiA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrmiI7ySHR0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaXqSTjXrGU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxR2v23KttA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcK763LiKvM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8A1I3vGOzQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAScC3gbXiA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrmiI7ySHR0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaXqSTjXrGU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxR2v23KttA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcK763LiKvM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8A1I3vGOzQ&feature=related
copacetic
Smash Journeyman
They'll usuallly try to fastfall and autocancel a dair, which is predictable if the stage is big enough (SV, FD) and honestly all you have to do is slowly just match their airspeed and bair if they get close, since it hits the exact angle they usually approach from.
Don't get hit by fair offstage, you'll probably die. And I think they can ledgedrop an invincible nair through our up-b
The buffered dacus is pretty good for wario, and seeing as it was just discovered, it's probably not incorporated too well yet. Maybe not too big a factor in this matchup, but he can go across half of FD as fast as sonic as soon as he touches the ground.
Don't get hit by fair offstage, you'll probably die. And I think they can ledgedrop an invincible nair through our up-b
The buffered dacus is pretty good for wario, and seeing as it was just discovered, it's probably not incorporated too well yet. Maybe not too big a factor in this matchup, but he can go across half of FD as fast as sonic as soon as he touches the ground.
MJG
Smash Hero
Wario's like to use waft when we go off stage.
Im still not sure on stages that are good vs wario, so I am not going to comment on that much
I always ban brinstar vs wario though. Hunger's wario likes to go to RC. Does anyone even play wario on this stage? lol
Im still not sure on stages that are good vs wario, so I am not going to comment on that much
I always ban brinstar vs wario though. Hunger's wario likes to go to RC. Does anyone even play wario on this stage? lol
Hyro
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,386
Yeah I ban brinstar for all Warios, but when I played Hunger at Pound 4, he wrecked me on Rainbow Cruise. That was way too hard.
Anyways, this matchup is supposedly good for us, but I hattttte it. Wario's have it as 55-45 their advantage, I'd agree with that or put it at 60-40 wario. I think it's just WAY too easy for Warios to get in. Even if we can bair them, it doesn't matter. They can just be smart, airdodge in and keep grabbing. Another thing is, he's TOO fat. It's like Snake. He never dies. He can kill us easy. And he's way too hard to gimp unless they recover too low and we knock em off their bite. And even if you DO have the lead, you could always get farted.
But yeah...I just throw angled boomerangs and bombs in the air to keep him on the ground/force him to airdodge, then I bair all day. It's all about reading double jumps.
Anyways, this matchup is supposedly good for us, but I hattttte it. Wario's have it as 55-45 their advantage, I'd agree with that or put it at 60-40 wario. I think it's just WAY too easy for Warios to get in. Even if we can bair them, it doesn't matter. They can just be smart, airdodge in and keep grabbing. Another thing is, he's TOO fat. It's like Snake. He never dies. He can kill us easy. And he's way too hard to gimp unless they recover too low and we knock em off their bite. And even if you DO have the lead, you could always get farted.
But yeah...I just throw angled boomerangs and bombs in the air to keep him on the ground/force him to airdodge, then I bair all day. It's all about reading double jumps.
hunger!
Smash Champion
The OP has Snake's advantages XD.
I only have experience versing one wario who I verse like all the time and he's legit. He's the one who also plays Wolf (Tedeth).
A few things you need to know. Wario's spot dodge is broken as ****. He not only has invincibility frames but he's in the z-axis for some of the time he should be vulnerable. If they know this, they can occasionally spam it to make you easily wiff an attack and then punish (lol, wiff an attack, you'd better hope it aint waft). Don't be fooled. Unless you are confident with the timing, shield next to him and when he spot dodoges, quickly use grounded Up-B OoS and that will beat it every time. Either that or you can just predict he'll spot dodge a few times and use grounded Up-B anyway, but I reckon shielding first is safer.
You also need to check the timer every now and then. If they can do it, so can we. After 1:30 (I think) has passed, always be ready to predict and avoid a waft.
Wario is stupid hard to gimp when he has his bike, so you're best chance at gimping him is if he stuffed up and his bike is still on stage. If the bike is on stage and wario goes over to it, jump above him and use an aerial because it's likely that he will do that bike jump thing to get it off stage.
I might think of more later. Also, that whole you can grab him off the bike thing, it's not like Wario's spam that thing so it's usually hard to predict.
I only have experience versing one wario who I verse like all the time and he's legit. He's the one who also plays Wolf (Tedeth).
A few things you need to know. Wario's spot dodge is broken as ****. He not only has invincibility frames but he's in the z-axis for some of the time he should be vulnerable. If they know this, they can occasionally spam it to make you easily wiff an attack and then punish (lol, wiff an attack, you'd better hope it aint waft). Don't be fooled. Unless you are confident with the timing, shield next to him and when he spot dodoges, quickly use grounded Up-B OoS and that will beat it every time. Either that or you can just predict he'll spot dodge a few times and use grounded Up-B anyway, but I reckon shielding first is safer.
You also need to check the timer every now and then. If they can do it, so can we. After 1:30 (I think) has passed, always be ready to predict and avoid a waft.
Wario is stupid hard to gimp when he has his bike, so you're best chance at gimping him is if he stuffed up and his bike is still on stage. If the bike is on stage and wario goes over to it, jump above him and use an aerial because it's likely that he will do that bike jump thing to get it off stage.
I might think of more later. Also, that whole you can grab him off the bike thing, it's not like Wario's spam that thing so it's usually hard to predict.
CTX
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2009
- Messages
- 447
Alright, I have a lot of practice with this matchup (always practice against a pretty decent one).
I have yet to see anybody mention his bite. That move is more annoying than anything. One thing to watch out for is for a wario player to bait your second jump and bite you out of it off stage. Honestly, I think this is more of a danger than his waft. He can carry you all the down and without the second jump he can easily get back to the stage and there is nothing you can do.
Also, his waft is something to worry about from 0 up until kill percentages. A competent wario won't be using waft when he can kill you with his other kill moves. In fact, if he wants to waft you that high, let him. Better for him to waste it when other kill moves will do then to deal 42% to you OR get an early kill.
Wario's u-air can rack damage (at low low percent he can u-air to u-air...true combo yall) and kill with it later on. His ability to weave past our projectiles and bait and punish our moves with his broken dodging abilities, his recovery ability AND kill potential bring this to his favor.
You can't really outcamp Wario on certain stages. His aircamping tactics as well his ability to just recharge his fart AND his broken airdodges allows camping pretty difficult.
With that said...I have found B-Air and N-air to be your best friend in this match as well as invinci-bombing. Sometimes a Wario will have TOO much faith in his dodging abilities. You can sometimes bait this and punish the airdodge with a kill move or damage racker depending on the percentage.
I would say that this somewhere between 55-45 and 60-40 in favor of wario
I have yet to see anybody mention his bite. That move is more annoying than anything. One thing to watch out for is for a wario player to bait your second jump and bite you out of it off stage. Honestly, I think this is more of a danger than his waft. He can carry you all the down and without the second jump he can easily get back to the stage and there is nothing you can do.
Also, his waft is something to worry about from 0 up until kill percentages. A competent wario won't be using waft when he can kill you with his other kill moves. In fact, if he wants to waft you that high, let him. Better for him to waste it when other kill moves will do then to deal 42% to you OR get an early kill.
Wario's u-air can rack damage (at low low percent he can u-air to u-air...true combo yall) and kill with it later on. His ability to weave past our projectiles and bait and punish our moves with his broken dodging abilities, his recovery ability AND kill potential bring this to his favor.
You can't really outcamp Wario on certain stages. His aircamping tactics as well his ability to just recharge his fart AND his broken airdodges allows camping pretty difficult.
With that said...I have found B-Air and N-air to be your best friend in this match as well as invinci-bombing. Sometimes a Wario will have TOO much faith in his dodging abilities. You can sometimes bait this and punish the airdodge with a kill move or damage racker depending on the percentage.
I would say that this somewhere between 55-45 and 60-40 in favor of wario
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
*awaits jerms post*
imo mix everything up bombs use em alot.....err dair is kinda safe if there on the bike dash attack them them if there recovering low.That how i play malcolm so idk.....mal wafted me me at like 120 near perfect waft and the bomb blew up before the blastzone saving my life lol ithink we can tech the waft not sure.... dont get wariocided either
edit: also dont get biked some warios will hop on the bike while your near the ledge and knock you offstage
jerm vs bassem...old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m6FZwXgJQc
hyro vs jnig slighty old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nguJRCkAz_I
malcolm vs jash
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw9aVmFSzpY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw9aVmFSzpY
imo mix everything up bombs use em alot.....err dair is kinda safe if there on the bike dash attack them them if there recovering low.That how i play malcolm so idk.....mal wafted me me at like 120 near perfect waft and the bomb blew up before the blastzone saving my life lol ithink we can tech the waft not sure.... dont get wariocided either
edit: also dont get biked some warios will hop on the bike while your near the ledge and knock you offstage
jerm vs bassem...old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m6FZwXgJQc
hyro vs jnig slighty old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nguJRCkAz_I
malcolm vs jash
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw9aVmFSzpY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw9aVmFSzpY
Jerm's really the only TL to give me trouble. Like, if the Wario is patient, you're probably not going to win, so try to aggravate him into approaching and taking needless damage from bair walls.
I played wario for a stint, i try to help...
Ratio:60-40 wario. I think this is a harder MU than snake believe it or not...Then again, I play Judge's wario alot, that may be why (wario is his secondary next to mk). This MU would be even or in tinks favor if it werent for the broken Fsmash and Fart(will go into detail under advantages).
Toon Link's advantages:...not many in this MU... Our projectile spam is useful, but not as useful because of warios ability to dodge ****ing everything. We can Grab Release Wario into Usmash (probably other stuff to) so Zair into grab can be useful, I know its hard to grab wario regardless though, so dont do it unless you KNOW its gonna work, other wise you are eating a Fsmash/Fart. Projectiles can knock wario off his bike when hes off stage for potential gimps.
Wario's advantages: Warios air mobility is the best in the game. His air dodge and regular dodge are hard to punish and create traps. His fart kills at super low % if its only charged for 1:30. once the timer hits 6:30, be on your guard. Alot of warios wont use fart unless you are off stage, that may help. Warios bite is TO GOOD. It punishes spot dodges and goes through any move that isnt disjointed. If a wario is falling in front of you from the air, chances are he is going to bite, dont just stand there with your shield up. Fsmash has super armor, so watch out for that as well..
Stages to Strike: BF and Yoshi's IMO. Platforms mess with grab releases. Taking him to FD is the best scenario.
Stages to Ban:Brinstar is apparently his best stage, so ban that.
Counterpick Stages: Most big flat stages are good against wario, again, FD is probably the best place to take him.
Wario wont die, Tink dies super early, which makes this match difficult, and you cant just camp him because your only helping one of his kill moves charge -_-
Ratio:60-40 wario. I think this is a harder MU than snake believe it or not...Then again, I play Judge's wario alot, that may be why (wario is his secondary next to mk). This MU would be even or in tinks favor if it werent for the broken Fsmash and Fart(will go into detail under advantages).
Toon Link's advantages:...not many in this MU... Our projectile spam is useful, but not as useful because of warios ability to dodge ****ing everything. We can Grab Release Wario into Usmash (probably other stuff to) so Zair into grab can be useful, I know its hard to grab wario regardless though, so dont do it unless you KNOW its gonna work, other wise you are eating a Fsmash/Fart. Projectiles can knock wario off his bike when hes off stage for potential gimps.
Wario's advantages: Warios air mobility is the best in the game. His air dodge and regular dodge are hard to punish and create traps. His fart kills at super low % if its only charged for 1:30. once the timer hits 6:30, be on your guard. Alot of warios wont use fart unless you are off stage, that may help. Warios bite is TO GOOD. It punishes spot dodges and goes through any move that isnt disjointed. If a wario is falling in front of you from the air, chances are he is going to bite, dont just stand there with your shield up. Fsmash has super armor, so watch out for that as well..
Stages to Strike: BF and Yoshi's IMO. Platforms mess with grab releases. Taking him to FD is the best scenario.
Stages to Ban:Brinstar is apparently his best stage, so ban that.
Counterpick Stages: Most big flat stages are good against wario, again, FD is probably the best place to take him.
Wario wont die, Tink dies super early, which makes this match difficult, and you cant just camp him because your only helping one of his kill moves charge -_-
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Ratio:
55-45 Wario (Maybe 60-40 but IDreallyK)
Toon Link's advantages:
Projectiles
Forces approach well when ahead
Range (?)
Mainly Back air + Projectiles
Wario's advantages:
Mobility...oh god Wario's aerial mobility...
Heavy
Kills extremely well while is insane to kill
Great Recovery
Can time us out (leads to many farts)
That Fsmash
Stages to Strike:
Battlefield
Stages to Ban:
Brinstar
Counterpick Stages:
Smashville/FD
Things to keep in mind:
Just don't let him get the lead. This MU goes from closish to hell when you're behind.
Videos:[/QUOTE]
already posted
55-45 Wario (Maybe 60-40 but IDreallyK)
Toon Link's advantages:
Projectiles
Forces approach well when ahead
Range (?)
Mainly Back air + Projectiles
Wario's advantages:
Mobility...oh god Wario's aerial mobility...
Heavy
Kills extremely well while is insane to kill
Great Recovery
Can time us out (leads to many farts)
That Fsmash
Stages to Strike:
Battlefield
Stages to Ban:
Brinstar
Counterpick Stages:
Smashville/FD
Things to keep in mind:
Just don't let him get the lead. This MU goes from closish to hell when you're behind.
Videos:[/QUOTE]
already posted
Actually, BField isn't too bad against Wario for TL, you can wall him out pretty well if you camp under the platforms, making it much harder for him to get in.
Hyro
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,386
...**** people, get your facts straight...
If you're reading Wario's spotdodge...you're not gonna wanna try an unsafe up B. If you actually know it's coming, you might as well do whatever you want. But usually you should charge a smash. Probably one of my easiest kills against Warios. Reading a spotdodge with a charged smash.
Everybody...you guys realize bike sucks right? You don't need to try to grab it. And it's not hard to predict...you never NEED to predict it. That **** is too slow. To punish bike, you powershield the hit then nair/bair them off everytime. Even at the most random times it's way too easy to react to. You should be punishing wario hard EVERY time they bike into you. Whenever I mess it up, it's my fault.
What you said about the timer is true and very useful, but it's all the way up to around 1:50 where the fart is extremely gay.
If you're reading Wario's spotdodge...you're not gonna wanna try an unsafe up B. If you actually know it's coming, you might as well do whatever you want. But usually you should charge a smash. Probably one of my easiest kills against Warios. Reading a spotdodge with a charged smash.
Everybody...you guys realize bike sucks right? You don't need to try to grab it. And it's not hard to predict...you never NEED to predict it. That **** is too slow. To punish bike, you powershield the hit then nair/bair them off everytime. Even at the most random times it's way too easy to react to. You should be punishing wario hard EVERY time they bike into you. Whenever I mess it up, it's my fault.
Yeah, I wouldn't spotdodge in this matchup, they don't need to grab, just bite. I also wouldn't airdodge...they bait it for the fart.
Hmm, what you mean by patient? Camping? I don't think Toon Links will lose to anything but aggressive. I find it too easy when people try to camp me. But since it's you, you probably don't mean camping lol
Huh. Not sure what kind of Wario you're playing, but we don't have a grab release on him...unless he's hanging off a ledge. If Wario is getting air released, it's his fault for mashing up/jump. Wario mains know this so they mash out with different buttons and breakout on the ground.
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
if they happen to bike whilst we pull out a bomb throw a rang or shoot an arrow we're gonna get hit........
plz dont hurt me
xReix
Smash Cadet
You shouldn't be doing any of those things close to a Wario. If you are getting punished for pulling bombs, throwing rangs and shooting arrows then you are doing something wrong.
Lobos
Smash Master
Hyro I grab release wario >_> ask slikvik about it LOL
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
On occasion I'll grab release Wario.
It isn't guaranteed, but if they randomly hit jump (happens....) free Usmash!!! Or Fair if they aren't about to die.
If they break I just always go for Jab.
It isn't guaranteed, but if they randomly hit jump (happens....) free Usmash!!! Or Fair if they aren't about to die.
If they break I just always go for Jab.
1:44 at the first wario video. Why weren't you stage spiked?
Looked almost as if you were teching. o_O
Hyro
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,386
GARBLE GARBLE RAWRR pink ice cream
Ummmm he's doing it wrong!!! Go tell him! ....actually you should probably not tell him haha
what you mean looked like?? ...he definitely teched lol
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
How do you tech in brawl? :o
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
DCStyle you trolling? lol
I actually love that gimp...tech to Wario randomly dieing too good.
I actually love that gimp...tech to Wario randomly dieing too good.
slikvik
Smash Master
it only works if i was trying to jump when you grab me >_>. and you still cant beat me
tedeth
Smash Master
Just so you guys know, the 2 times a Wario will use the fart is at 1:30 for killing, and 1:55 for damage.
The half waft at 1:30 kills far earlier than the full waft at 1:55, but the full waft does a huge 42% damae when it hits.
The half waft at 1:30 kills far earlier than the full waft at 1:55, but the full waft does a huge 42% damae when it hits.
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
..............
Lobos
Smash Master
lol which is like all the time....see me in brawl +it only works if i was trying to jump when you grab me >_>. and you still cant beat me
Excellence
Smash Champion
I would say that Toon Link vs Wario is 55:45 or 60:40 in Wario's favor. The reason being, Toon Link's main methods of damage building are projectiles and his aerial game. Wario has the aerial ability to avoid both and stay inside Toon Link's range which is the big thing here. Once Wario gets inside of someone's defenses, there are very few things that a person can do to stop him from doing some big damage.
Toon Link doesn't do a bad job of keeping Wario away, though. He does a bit better than a number of characters which means that when he gets the lead, it can be a pain in the *** for a Wario to get back in and close the gap between characters.
If both characters are at high percentages, there are a few ways Wario can KO Toon Link and not too many ways that Toon Link can KO Wario. Toon Link's F-Smash is avoidable by just Smash DI-ing into him, U-Air is easy to avoid with Wario's excellent airdodge, F-air isn't the fastest and most concealed attack, and Up Smash is pretty easy to see coming. A lot of the times when Toon Link KO's me, it's with something like B-Air at high percents, sneaky Up Air's (usually my fault), and Up Smash. Wario has got Up Air, F-Smash, B-Air, and Up Smash depending on the stage.
Long story short, Toon Link lacks a reliable KO move and method of being aggressive on Wario. That basically means, if he loses the first stock he's probably going to lose.
Toon Link doesn't do a bad job of keeping Wario away, though. He does a bit better than a number of characters which means that when he gets the lead, it can be a pain in the *** for a Wario to get back in and close the gap between characters.
If both characters are at high percentages, there are a few ways Wario can KO Toon Link and not too many ways that Toon Link can KO Wario. Toon Link's F-Smash is avoidable by just Smash DI-ing into him, U-Air is easy to avoid with Wario's excellent airdodge, F-air isn't the fastest and most concealed attack, and Up Smash is pretty easy to see coming. A lot of the times when Toon Link KO's me, it's with something like B-Air at high percents, sneaky Up Air's (usually my fault), and Up Smash. Wario has got Up Air, F-Smash, B-Air, and Up Smash depending on the stage.
Long story short, Toon Link lacks a reliable KO move and method of being aggressive on Wario. That basically means, if he loses the first stock he's probably going to lose.
MJG
Smash Hero
A 60:40 MU is somewhere along the lines of playing a snake that will not die (most snakes won't die early vs TL), knows the MU and stays in TLs face (instead of trying to camp TL).
Back air shouldn't really be strong enough to kill wario (if TL is playing the MU right).
Projectiles will be thrown in the air to force a reaction from wario player so that TL can react and punish (its never guaranteed but do you get the gist of what I am saying?)
Obviously, Toon Links biggest problem is killing wario before wario kills TL, but we have been dealing with this issue for awhile now and we are well aware of our lack of kill moves.
I think TL mains are also aware of being hit with waft when they go off stage. Just something to look out for.
I would only agree with the MU being 60:40 if TL was playing wario on Brinstar. That seems almost hopeless to me >_>
Back air shouldn't really be strong enough to kill wario (if TL is playing the MU right).
Projectiles will be thrown in the air to force a reaction from wario player so that TL can react and punish (its never guaranteed but do you get the gist of what I am saying?)
Obviously, Toon Links biggest problem is killing wario before wario kills TL, but we have been dealing with this issue for awhile now and we are well aware of our lack of kill moves.
I think TL mains are also aware of being hit with waft when they go off stage. Just something to look out for.
I would only agree with the MU being 60:40 if TL was playing wario on Brinstar. That seems almost hopeless to me >_>
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Toon Link cannot beat a competent Wario on Brinstar...really... Ban that ****.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
More discussion plz. One more week.
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
Jerm Get In Here Ya *****
xephyr417
Smash Rookie
hey im kind of a newbie tl and i have a crap load of issues with this matchup. the main thing is warios neutral air. i always get hit with the second hit. and then his fsmash, they always seem to pull it out in the middle of one of my attacks. though to be honest i prefer playing pit against wario cuz of the grabs.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Don't spotdodge much against Wario. Nair has an amazing lasting hitbox. Also, committing to attacks isn't a great idea. Things like Bair strings get interrupted by Nair.
This is so true.
Naa, eff everything you guys said. (didnt read it much lol)
But this match up is even or 55 45 TL. No way its anything different. Just zone wario out, limit their movements and bait attacks. If you play smart, you should win because they dont have any tools to beat our defensive style.
But this match up is even or 55 45 TL. No way its anything different. Just zone wario out, limit their movements and bait attacks. If you play smart, you should win because they dont have any tools to beat our defensive style.
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
the jerm has spoken and the MU shall be played as the wario slayer himself has stated.