Snake vs. Marth

Underload · Feb 23, 2010

Discuss the Marth matchup in here. Discussion is open indefinitely. Don't be afraid to post.

Bulletpoints:

Welcome to one of the most finicky matchups ever. It's widely argued who wins this MU, and this is only the facts brought forward by Shaya and the Snake boards.
Here's a decent generalization of the matchup: Marth can give you hell in the air, while you annihilate him on the ground. Marth's range and quick aerials can juggle you for a fairly long time, and your inherent camping makes it difficult for him to get in on the ground.
You can live fairly long against Marth, just avoid tippered fmash, dsmash, and bair. Otherwise, you can easilypush 160% every stock.
This matchup is a struggle of air vs. ground. Marth does a decent job of getting characters offstage, and if by luck he starts to juggle you, you're screwed. Likewise, if you're planted on the ground with grenades flying everywhere, and C4 going off every few seconds, you're in a very good position. Marth's immediate range is nothing when compared to your passive range (aka explosives and projectiles).
Marths usually understand how to space well. If this happens to be the case, punish everything with dash attack. It has low startup, tons of range, and a fairly long hitbox. It can annoy Marths that mess up their spacing.
FD is by far the best starter stage for you, while BF is the worst. You want a counterpick to have a lot of space to camp in, and a lack of platforms to help with the juggling problem.
People call this matchup anywhere between 55:45 and 45:55. For now, 50:50 seems like the best number. It'll be discussed against someday, but for now this seems like the most logical number.

Notable Posts:

TwentyTwo said:
Marth is such a douche to us lol. Quite honestly he's like MK, just juggles us harder when there's a stage under him, and less off stage.

His juggling is straight ugly, and we all have had a taste of it I'm sure. You want to just land safely, and as soon as possible, simple. Dropping a c4 is helpful in this facet so he can't camp the spot you're going to land, autocancel uair into utilt, and start juggle **** again. Shooting the Nikita and dropping it, blah blah. Basically you want to cover your recovery more so than avoid him, as he can cover so much space fast.

We win in weight, but he does a lot of stuff to us at low percents. He combos us like we're playing melee , but try to avoid the gimp, don't get grabbed near the ledges, and try to hang out in the middle of the stage. If you're caught off stage without your second jump though, quite honestly, it's better to go for a c4 recovery most of the time, because the slow cypher will get ***** 10 times over by marth. It can be hard, but don't get grabbed at low percents, and try to nade yourself out of situations, as being in a neutral stance is favored toward snake, as we can live to great percentages. There was that DI vid by SuSa awhile back where he lived the untipped forward smash of marth from the center of FD at like 194% or something, fresh.

One of the stronger assets in this matchup is our c4 and landmine. Marth can hit us at our head, with a forward air spaced well, and if he wasn't jumping forward, we can't do anything about it, unless he fast falls, then we can dash attack. However, when you zone with c4 and landmine, making it unsafe for him to land in areas, and jump in certain places, you'll be able to punish him if he approaches you. I don't have a picture, but say you were on battle field on the right side. You want a c4 on the left side of the right platform, and your body toward the middle under the platform.

Dash attack, is amazing in this matchup, because when marth spaces well, we can't punish with the usual ftilt/utilt, but we can dash attack, so you'll be using it a lot in this matchup. Marth, is not very good himself at landing, so make it hell for him. You have great anti-air and juggling ability yourself, and marth can only do a few things to get down to the ground. Counter can be a problem, but if you're under him, it won't hit you anyway.

I already mentioned that we can kill him way earlier than us, but edge guarding is something we're pretty proficient at too. You actually do not want to leave a grenade and edge hug, because if you do this, and he wasn't going to make the ledge because you edge hugged, his DS will probably hit the grenade, and get him up. Mortars(or bounced grenades), a land mine away from the edge maybe, and edge hugging are the tools for edge guarding.

This matchup is 50:50, I just want to say that it can be 5 points in either direction, but I feel as 50:50 is a fine ratio, because both characters can do cool things and **** each other.

Dooan said:
I find the matchup pretty even. If you're approaching marth, you're doing it wrong. He also juggles us extremely hard, so don't be doing any unessesary jumps.

Just try the standard camp game, and try to get as many techases in as possible. I get to play the UK's best marth whenever I want to, and I've noticed snake can only barely go to to toe with him. Camp and grab, and mix up your recoveries with B pivoting/fastfalling whever you can. I've also noticed FF Uairs can catch someone who's waiting for your airdodge quite handy, but he won't be caught often. If you're doing your camping well, you WILL be able to punish accordingly.

Also, dash attack works quite well.

berserker01 said:
Time for marth eyy...

Marth's advantages:
Marth can trouble Snake easily with his superior juggling ability. It's nearly unescapable since Snake's aerials are esentially usless.

The only thing Snake can do about Marth's juggling is soft throw a nade or b-reversal but Marth can string some more attacks to Snake so Snake can't do much. Another bad thing is that Marth can rush down Snake easily.

Marth doesn't really fear Snake's grenades and he can approach Snake with SH f-air/normal f-air, plus Marth's D-tilt can poke Snake's shield easily. Another thing is that Marth can
combo Snake easily due to Snake's size, weight and falling speed.

Marth can kill Snake with a tipped f-smash at around 90%. Snake's f-tilt can be easily out-ranged by a
well-spaced f-air and d-tilt.

Another obvious advantage is that Marth's aerials destroy Snake's aerials and Marth's edgeguarding game is superior and to make it easier for Marth to edgeguard Snake is that Snake's recovery is very easy to edgeguard since it leaves him vulnerable to an attack. Marth is also capable of punishing most of Snake's attacks and his landings.

Snake's advantages:
Snake obviously outcamps Marth BUT Marth has ways on getting through Snake's grenades. It's suggested for all Snakes to camp very hard against Marth.

Another advantage is that Snake has a superior ground game but it doesn't really do much since Marth out ranges Snake. Snake/s can plan strategies to make a great defense with his arsenal of projectiles that can at least put Marth away from Snake for a while which gives enough time to spam grenades behind your defense.

How to play the MU:
Avoid getting juggled too much, if you get juggled, you might as well get yourself to 50% or worse. If your getting juggled by Marth, try your best to soft throw a grenade or b-reversal
away from Marth.

As for Marth's F-air approach, you have to punish it by using dash attack but be careful on your timing. If you mess up, you might as well get punished then combo'd
or juggled.

Marth's d-tilt is gonna be very hard to deal with. There's nothing we can do with it anyway. It's very fast at the
same time it's a great shield poker. You can try rolling away
from it but you might as well get punished. Don't try jumping away Marth or he'll just follow up a f-air. Don't jump in the MU or you'll get *****. As for his gay combos, try hard to pull out a
grenade or DI out of it.

Now for his edgeguarding. Since your recovery is very easy to edgeguard, carefully mix up your recovery with b-reversals. Marth's recovery stinks so if it's
whiffed, you can try using f-smash. As for OoS, you can't really do much.

Go mix up your landing and your strategies. You don't want to try using the same thing all over again because it will start getting predictable and Marth can easily counter it. The key to winning in this match up is to have patience, mix up and camp VERY hard against Marth.

Even though Marth can rush down Snake, you have to try hard in camping no matter what. You must always be VERY SMART in this match up and play DEFENSIVELY!

Stages:
Ban:
Battlefield
Smashville

CP:
Halberd
Final Destination

Final ratio:
45:55 Marth's favor

etecoon said:
my experience with this has been the opposite. in terms of neutrals I'd say

BF > FD > YI > SV

for snake, and yes FD does have a weakness for snake because he literally has zero options if marth reacts properly when there are no platforms, but at least he can camp there and the other two stages are pretty horrible for him IMO, but I guess there's some debate on YI

Lenin said:
If you powershield the fair you can utilt us. But again, that's part of why I like yoshi's/lylat vs marth because you have options to punish his fair thanks to tilts. Also, Mizu, it's definitely 55-45 Marth's favor. Almost every good snake says it is (HR, Susa, I think Ultimate and Ally, Candy) and almost every top marth agrees.

Also, like vs DDD if you have to choose between recovering a little past the stage or dropping way down in the corner away from the stage and C4ing yourself, always C4 yourself, you need to go higher than Marth can to avoid being spiked.

EDIT: C.J. on Lenin's account.

boss8 said:
edit: this is candy ^_^

namesearching ftw :-)

wait wha??????????? i said it was in marths favor?? sounds like someones putting words in my mouth LOL

i think its in snakes favor 55-45...snake can punish marth pretty easy....can camp him pretty hard..and can kill marth easy where as marth cant

Darkshadow7827 said:
I think it's about even. SuSa used to say 55:45 were just 5 extra bs points. Needless to say, it isn't easy for Snake. Improperly spaced double fairs will be punished by dash attack. I could repeat what everyone already said about juggling and landing, but I won't. Also, no one seemed to mention anything about SB (shield breaker). Be wary when shielding too long within range. Don't use nairs because he can DS out of the 3rd kick.

As for stages, I'm split on this. I heard the argument that stages like BF and Lylat are good because the platforms give us landing options. Also, we have platform tricks. But if we land on a platform, we are sitting ducks. It's a pain to be tilted through platforms. Stages like FD are bigger and give us more room to play with b-reversals, but marth's mobility makes it a bit easier to catch us. I personally prefer FD, cause I hate crouching on a platform instead of FF air dodge through it.

Edit: I miss Candy! Why is everyone from the earlier times leaving?

xxCANDYxx said:
eh i guess i should post in the snake boards more often

namesearch candy is NOT fun....too much stuff about the actualy candy and candy eye and candy coating and pokemon rare candy

and if it is valentines or HALLOWEEN then i'm never able to find anything LOL >.<

but yea...snakes dash attack punish most of marths approaches...you just have to be smart to cover yourself up with gernades and stay in the middle...i play marths alot like i play mk's.

Bizkit047 said:
Darn I didn't get to this one in time. I <3 this matchup. I think it's 55-45 Snake. Neo tries to tell me otherwise. Marth beats Snake in the air and off stage, Snake beats Marth on the ground easily and out camps him. Ban BF if you can, CP FD/Halberd. There is no doubt FD is the best Neutral against Marth. You have massive room to run away and camp. Whlie stages like BF you can get pressured really easily.

Like Candy said, dash attack punishes Marth pretty easily. Mix up landing against Marth a lot. If all you do is air dodge, you'll just eat Uairs all day. Pivot Nading is great here, don't always land aerials either. If you get hit off stage, double jump + Up B immediately. Marth can chase Snake very far out and KO with tippered Bairs/Uairs/Fairs, even Up B. When on the ground, if Marth starts dancing blading you and you shield it, grab it after the first or second one. You should guaranteed grab it no matter what the Marth tries to do (stopping it, stalling it, using it all etc).

So some notes about the matchup:

Camp hard
Recovery fast and high
Mix up landings best you can
Stay grounded as much as you can
Dash attack Fair retreating Marths
Punish Dancing Blades
CP stages without many platforms, ban BF

etecoon said:
agree that mixing up your landing is important, but I usually have the most issues if he just waits for me to land and follows me rather than trying to intercept in the air, the only things I've been able to do that consistently work vs follow > shield grab/DB are either landing on a platform(bad position but not guaranteed to end badly at least), or cyphering extremely high and dropping a nikita and following that(telegraphed as hell and he can just cross to the other side)

I'd also strongly disagree on BF, you can actually shut down his attempts at approaching there as well as what I said above about plats actually being important for giving you recovery options, I've found SV to be significantly worse for me...small stage, like any hit will put you in the edge guard **** position, no space to camp, barely any room to recover without him getting in the way

Bizkit047 said:
Well if the Marth keeps doing the same thing every time, then it's not too hard to get around it. If he's waiting on the ground, you have options of dropping C4, nades, pivot nading, and air dodge landing. Mixing that up alone is good enough to throw off a Marth that just stands there doing nothing waiting for your landings. In the air, the Marth will most likely try to read air dodges or space away from aerials to punish. There's nothing wrong with pivot nading early if you're up high. You gotta be careful with C4/Nikita dropping though, as that's punishable if the Marth sees it coming.

And yea, I think BF is still bad. Landing on a platform isn't going to help you too much. You don't want to be stuck in the air vs Marth at all, and with platforms there, you're not on the actual ground enough. Let's say you get knocked onto a platform. That's a free punish for Marth that can also lead into juggles. It's just a messy stage for this matchup IMO. It's also harder to camp Marth on BF than it is stages like FD or even SV.

etecoon said:
more like walking around than standing perfectly still, it's harder to react from a totally neutral standpoint and walking gives you better positioning. it's problematic because he walks at least as fast as snake moves through the air(I think faster actually) and b reversals leave snake with few/no options once executed, so if marth positions himself right he can react to whatever you do

Bizkit047 said:
Well let's say he does wait for you to land like that. If you pull out a nade, the only thing he can "safely" do is grab you and toss you. If the Marth has port 4, however, he can potentially get away with this alone, but if not and if you're good at mashing out of grabs, you're fine. He'll have to throw you and get away from the nade before it explodes. If he does a regular attack, he blows up and possibly you too (usually worth the damage due to weight difference). So think about that. What you DON'T want to do 85% of the time is land aerials or air dodges with a Marth just waiting, that's very easily punisahble. Pivot nading is not.

etecoon said:
camping serves its purpose, on most stages at least, of forcing marth to actually fight you in some form or another, having only two jumps and some decent blind spots, he does leave himself open if he attempts to camp you back/run away too much. but if he is playing aggressively/staying closer to you, you have to be careful when you're throwing grenades around as that leaves you open. it's not that camping is useless, you just have to know when to do it

Shaya said:
Marths up air covers more horizontal range than MKs uair.
His fair or bair arent SDIable. Both of those cover huge arcs in the air. Nair beats air dodges.
Difference in mobility means something, Snake can fast fall an aerial if MK whiffs due to MKs poor fast fall and aerial momentum. Marth can cover himself completely with uair/fair/bair.
How often do you see Ally punish a whiffed MK aerial during juggling?
How often is that even POSSIBLE against Marth in this match up?

If Marth does a rising fair on snake and hes close enough, dash attack wont hit him, and snake will be too far away to do much. Snake isnt so great at covering landings on both sides of him anyway... the better aerial mobility and the coverage, cross over ability and safeness on shield of fast fall uair wreck Snakes attempts to punish landing. MK cant do that either, the closest thing he has is tornadoing... or MAYBE a lucky neutral air.

There are so many things Marth can do in this match up compared to what MK can do.

QUOTE=smashkng;9732634]I hate when I get hit by an unexpected tipper fsmash on me and in moments I'm not DIing, killing me at insanely low percents.

Although fair, juggling and Dancing Blade and his stupid long disjointed range can become extremely annoying, it's around 50/50. While Marth can edge guard Snake pretty easily, Marth's recovery is also very easy to punish by edge hogging, often allowing grabs, or Utilt for kills when he is around 100-110% (Marth is pretty light) and Snake can still live to very high percents as long as Marth doesn't land a tipper. Snake also deals huge damage in his tilts and can punish a missed up b with a guaranteed fsmash.

IMO the matchup is even, thanks to Snake's ability to live and kill Marth at pretty low percents, only that it's just a very annoying matchup just like DDD. IMO the Bans and CPs are so. Avoid Castle Siege and BF, CP PS1 or Halberd. Avoid the air and offstage, which isn't easy, and you're fine.[/QUOTE]

RedHalberd said:
This matchup is sorta gay. My best recommendation is reverse nading when you predict a fair. If you time it right and shield no matter how well they space they'll hit the nade.

Ban BF, CP FD. Lylat sounds pretty good though I've never used it. PS1 I wouldn't risk but prolly works for snake. Halberd is pretty good.

TwentyTwo · Feb 24, 2010

Marth is such a douche to us lol. Quite honestly he's like MK, just juggles us harder when there's a stage under him, and less off stage.

His juggling is straight ugly, and we all have had a taste of it I'm sure. You want to just land safely, and as soon as possible, simple. Dropping a c4 is helpful in this facet so he can't camp the spot you're going to land, autocancel uair into utilt, and start juggle **** again. Shooting the Nikita and dropping it, blah blah. Basically you want to cover your recovery more so than avoid him, as he can cover so much space fast.

We win in weight, but he does a lot of stuff to us at low percents. He combos us like we're playing melee

, but try to avoid the gimp, don't get grabbed near the ledges, and try to hang out in the middle of the stage. If you're caught off stage without your second jump though, quite honestly, it's better to go for a c4 recovery most of the time, because the slow cypher will get ***** 10 times over by marth. It can be hard, but don't get grabbed at low percents, and try to nade yourself out of situations, as being in a neutral stance is favored toward snake, as we can live to great percentages. There was that DI vid by SuSa awhile back where he lived the untipped forward smash of marth from the center of FD at like 194% or something, fresh.

One of the stronger assets in this matchup is our c4 and landmine. Marth can hit us at our head, with a forward air spaced well, and if he wasn't jumping forward, we can't do anything about it, unless he fast falls, then we can dash attack. However, when you zone with c4 and landmine, making it unsafe for him to land in areas, and jump in certain places, you'll be able to punish him if he approaches you. I don't have a picture, but say you were on battle field on the right side. You want a c4 on the left side of the right platform, and your body toward the middle under the platform.

Dash attack, is amazing in this matchup, because when marth spaces well, we can't punish with the usual ftilt/utilt, but we can dash attack, so you'll be using it a lot in this matchup. Marth, is not very good himself at landing, so make it hell for him. You have great anti-air and juggling ability yourself, and marth can only do a few things to get down to the ground. Counter can be a problem, but if you're under him, it won't hit you anyway.

I already mentioned that we can kill him way earlier than us, but edge guarding is something we're pretty proficient at too. You actually do not want to leave a grenade and edge hug, because if you do this, and he wasn't going to make the ledge because you edge hugged, his DS will probably hit the grenade, and get him up. Mortars(or bounced grenades), a land mine away from the edge maybe, and edge hugging are the tools for edge guarding.

This matchup is 50:50, I just want to say that it can be 5 points in either direction, but I feel as 50:50 is a fine ratio, because both characters can do cool things and **** each other.

etecoon · Feb 24, 2010

Quite honestly he's like MK, just juggles us harder when there's a stage under him, and less off stage.

I find myself getting edge guarded by marth a lot harder than MK, he can get to you a lot faster :/

as being in a neutral stance is favored toward snake, as we can live to great percentages.

just because you live a long time doesn't mean neutral is advantageous, marth outzones snake and he can get around the camping better than most characters

One of the stronger assets in this matchup is our c4 and landmine. Marth can hit us at our head, with a forward air spaced well, and if he wasn't jumping forward, we can't do anything about it

true but C4 out on the stage before like 70% is asking for trouble, even then I hate not having it available in this matchup

slight advantage marth IMO, stage dependent, but I think he generally gets the better of that. try to avoid smashville and yoshi's island as far as neutrals go, you get put off stage or in other horrendous situations way too easily there.

I'm using marth as one of my mains now so maybe I'll have more to say from the other perspective soon if I can play any snake's

The Filth · Feb 24, 2010

I find the matchup pretty even. If you're approaching marth, you're doing it wrong. He also juggles us extremely hard, so don't be doing any unessesary jumps.

Just try the standard camp game, and try to get as many techases in as possible. I get to play the UK's best marth whenever I want to, and I've noticed snake can only barely go to to toe with him. Camp and grab, and mix up your recoveries with B pivoting/fastfalling whever you can. I've also noticed FF Uairs can catch someone who's waiting for your airdodge quite handy, but he won't be caught often. If you're doing your camping well, you WILL be able to punish accordingly.

Also, dash attack works quite well.

Berserker. · Feb 24, 2010

Time for marth eyy...

Marth's advantages:
Marth can trouble Snake easily with his superior juggling ability. It's nearly unescapable since Snake's aerials are esentially usless.

The only thing Snake can do about Marth's juggling is soft throw a nade or b-reversal but Marth can string some more attacks to Snake so Snake can't do much. Another bad thing is that Marth can rush down Snake easily.

Marth doesn't really fear Snake's grenades and he can approach Snake with SH f-air/normal f-air, plus Marth's D-tilt can poke Snake's shield easily. Another thing is that Marth can
combo Snake easily due to Snake's size, weight and falling speed.

Marth can kill Snake with a tipped f-smash at around 90%. Snake's f-tilt can be easily out-ranged by a
well-spaced f-air and d-tilt.

Another obvious advantage is that Marth's aerials destroy Snake's aerials and Marth's edgeguarding game is superior and to make it easier for Marth to edgeguard Snake is that Snake's recovery is very easy to edgeguard since it leaves him vulnerable to an attack. Marth is also capable of punishing most of Snake's attacks and his landings.

Snake's advantages:
Snake obviously outcamps Marth BUT Marth has ways on getting through Snake's grenades. It's suggested for all Snakes to camp very hard against Marth.

Another advantage is that Snake has a superior ground game but it doesn't really do much since Marth out ranges Snake. Snake/s can plan strategies to make a great defense with his arsenal of projectiles that can at least put Marth away from Snake for a while which gives enough time to spam grenades behind your defense.

How to play the MU:
Avoid getting juggled too much, if you get juggled, you might as well get yourself to 50% or worse. If your getting juggled by Marth, try your best to soft throw a grenade or b-reversal
away from Marth.

As for Marth's F-air approach, you have to punish it by using dash attack but be careful on your timing. If you mess up, you might as well get punished then combo'd
or juggled.

Marth's d-tilt is gonna be very hard to deal with. There's nothing we can do with it anyway. It's very fast at the
same time it's a great shield poker. You can try rolling away
from it but you might as well get punished. Don't try jumping away Marth or he'll just follow up a f-air. Don't jump in the MU or you'll get *****. As for his gay combos, try hard to pull out a
grenade or DI out of it.

Now for his edgeguarding. Since your recovery is very easy to edgeguard, carefully mix up your recovery with b-reversals. Marth's recovery stinks so if it's
whiffed, you can try using f-smash. As for OoS, you can't really do much.

Go mix up your landing and your strategies. You don't want to try using the same thing all over again because it will start getting predictable and Marth can easily counter it. The key to winning in this match up is to have patience, mix up and camp VERY hard against Marth.

Even though Marth can rush down Snake, you have to try hard in camping no matter what. You must always be VERY SMART in this match up and play DEFENSIVELY!

Stages:
Ban:
Battlefield
Smashville

CP:
Halberd
Final Destination

Final ratio:
45:55 Marth's favor

C.J. · Feb 24, 2010

Out of curiosity, what do snakes plan on doing vs full hopped aerials vs you? It seems like a much much safer choice vs snake than SHing. Also, I don't know why you all like FD/hate YI in this. FD makes it a million times easier to juggle you, which is essentially what a good part of this MU revolves around and the platform on YI sucks for Marth and will let you get down a lot easier.

etecoon · Feb 24, 2010

the platform on YI sucks for Marth and will let you get down a lot easier.

my experience with this has been the opposite. in terms of neutrals I'd say

BF > FD > YI > SV

for snake, and yes FD does have a weakness for snake because he literally has zero options if marth reacts properly when there are no platforms, but at least he can camp there and the other two stages are pretty horrible for him IMO, but I guess there's some debate on YI

C.J. · Feb 24, 2010

For me it's been:
Yoshi's > Lylat > BF > FD > SV

With the slants on yoshi's you can actually punish some of marth's tipper stuff and you can also do a lot more with grenades because you have the ability to throw them at weirder angles now. And like I said before, the platform helps a lot with getting out of juggles. Lylat is like BF, only w/o the top platform for Marth to use DS w/o needing to be scared and again the tilts to supplement his camping game and mess w/ Marth's spacing.

Again, this is just from my exp. One of my friend's Marth has never beaten me on YI while the closest I get to beating/the rare times I do beat RH's snake is on FD/SV.

Yumewomiteru · Feb 24, 2010

Didn't we recently discuss this matchup in length in one of Berk's thread? We can def use stuff from that thread.

And I also disagree with YI being the best neutral vs Marth, I think FD is.

6Mizu · Feb 24, 2010

berserker01 said:
Time for marth eyy...

Marth's advantages:
Marth can trouble Snake easily with his superior juggling ability. It's nearly unescapable since Snake's aerials are esentially usless.

The only thing Snake can do about Marth's juggling is soft throw a nade or b-reversal but Marth can string some more attacks to Snake so Snake can't do much. Another bad thing is that Marth can rush down Snake easily.

Marth doesn't really fear Snake's grenades and he can approach Snake with SH f-air/normal f-air, plus Marth's D-tilt can poke Snake's shield easily. Another thing is that Marth can
combo Snake easily due to Snake's size, weight and falling speed.

Marth can kill Snake with a tipped f-smash at around 90%. Snake's f-tilt can be easily out-ranged by a
well-spaced f-air and d-tilt.

Another obvious advantage is that Marth's aerials destroy Snake's aerials and Marth's edgeguarding game is superior and to make it easier for Marth to edgeguard Snake is that Snake's recovery is very easy to edgeguard since it leaves him vulnerable to an attack. Marth is also capable of punishing most of Snake's attacks and his landings.

Snake's advantages:
Snake obviously outcamps Marth BUT Marth has ways on getting through Snake's grenades. It's suggested for all Snakes to camp very hard against Marth.

Another advantage is that Snake has a superior ground game but it doesn't really do much since Marth out ranges Snake. Snake/s can plan strategies to make a great defense with his arsenal of projectiles that can at least put Marth away from Snake for a while which gives enough time to spam grenades behind your defense.

How to play the MU:
Avoid getting juggled too much, if you get juggled, you might as well get yourself to 50% or worse. If your getting juggled by Marth, try your best to soft throw a grenade or b-reversal
away from Marth.

As for Marth's F-air approach, you have to punish it by using dash attack but be careful on your timing. If you mess up, you might as well get punished then combo'd
or juggled.

Marth's d-tilt is gonna be very hard to deal with. There's nothing we can do with it anyway. It's very fast at the
same time it's a great shield poker. You can try rolling away
from it but you might as well get punished. Don't try jumping away Marth or he'll just follow up a f-air. Don't jump in the MU or you'll get *****. As for his gay combos, try hard to pull out a
grenade or DI out of it.

Now for his edgeguarding. Since your recovery is very easy to edgeguard, carefully mix up your recovery with b-reversals. Marth's recovery stinks so if it's
whiffed, you can try using f-smash. As for OoS, you can't really do much.

Go mix up your landing and your strategies. You don't want to try using the same thing all over again because it will start getting predictable and Marth can easily counter it. The key to winning in this match up is to have patience, mix up and camp VERY hard against Marth.

Even though Marth can rush down Snake, you have to try hard in camping no matter what. You must always be VERY SMART in this match up and play DEFENSIVELY!

Stages:
Ban:
Battlefield
Smashville

CP:
Halberd
Final Destination

Final ratio:
45:55 Marth's favor

All of this "Seems" right except the part in red/bold. It's definitely....55:45 Snake's fav.
Also, fro my experience of play Marth and playing Snake, Snake does better with the YI platform than Marth.

6Mizu · Feb 24, 2010

Yumewomiteru said:
Didn't we recently discuss this matchup in length in one of Berk's thread? We can def use stuff from that thread.

And I also disagree with YI being the best neutral vs Marth, I think FD is.

Sry, for Double post.
Yume right find the thread where we talked about Marth. Shaya even joined in on that one. (Imma try and find it)

Yumewomiteru · Feb 24, 2010

Well I think with neutrals its alot about preference, I love FD so I would prob try to take a marth to there, even knowing I would get juggled more (heck I take Dededes to FD).

But I'm sure someone else would like just as much to take him to BF, or Lylat, or SV, or Yoshis.

And 6Mizu the thread is Berk's matchup disagreement thread that was active for a while.

6Mizu · Feb 24, 2010

Yumewomiteru said:
Well I think with neutrals its alot about preference, I love FD so I would prob try to take a marth to there, even knowing I would get juggled more (heck I take Dededes to FD).

But I'm sure someone else would like just as much to take him to BF, or Lylat, or SV, or Yoshis.

And 6Mizu the thread is Berk's matchup disagreement thread that was active for a while.

OMG! Yume you know I liked to be called, Mizu!

Okay imma go find it TY.

EDIT: I just checked that thread......I don't think it's on there.

Limeee · Feb 24, 2010

ugh, i hate this match up.

that fair is just, ****ing annoying

what should we do if we don't have anything setup and we shield a fair?
remember that if they improperly space a fair they can just up-B upon landing to prevent getting grabbed

etecoon · Feb 24, 2010

jujitsutide said:
what should we do if we don't have anything setup and we shield a fair?

run away and continue camping. if marth is executing properly you really can't punish him

iFudge · Feb 24, 2010

cant really put my input cause im not really nobody;s national tourney winner. But my ratio imo is 50:50. marth's stepped it up. Our nades and f-tilt is so last Year :D.

Lenin · Feb 24, 2010

If you powershield the fair you can utilt us. But again, that's part of why I like yoshi's/lylat vs marth because you have options to punish his fair thanks to tilts. Also, Mizu, it's definitely 55-45 Marth's favor. Almost every good snake says it is (HR, Susa, I think Ultimate and Ally, Candy) and almost every top marth agrees.

Also, like vs DDD if you have to choose between recovering a little past the stage or dropping way down in the corner away from the stage and C4ing yourself, always C4 yourself, you need to go higher than Marth can to avoid being spiked.

EDIT: C.J. on Lenin's account.

demonictoonlink · Feb 24, 2010

55-45 Marth? What?

He still can't get in...

I don't know either character well enough to mean anything, but I know it isn't Marf's favor.

etecoon · Feb 24, 2010

demonictoonlink said:
55-45 Marth? What?

He still can't get in...

lol

I don't know either character well enough to mean anything, but I know it isn't Marf's favor.

more lol

boss8 · Feb 24, 2010

edit: this is candy ^_^

namesearching ftw :-)

wait wha??????????? i said it was in marths favor?? sounds like someones putting words in my mouth LOL

i think its in snakes favor 55-45...snake can punish marth pretty easy....can camp him pretty hard..and can kill marth easy where as marth cant

etecoon · Feb 24, 2010

ya that didn't sound right, last I knew you didn't really admit that ANYONE beats snake...

don't think ally said that either but idk, only thing I saw him say was something to the effect of "I'll lose to like any marth, I don't know the matchup"(paraphrase of a random comment he made in AIB chat)

so you could say snake's are divided on it, more high level marth's than not that I know of do think marth wins though

I think it's even at best in any case, I don't see how snake can kill marth easy when he has the range advantage, he doesn't have to leave himself open to snake's power attacks like, ever

Darkshadow7827 · Feb 24, 2010

I think it's about even. SuSa used to say 55:45 were just 5 extra bs points. Needless to say, it isn't easy for Snake. Improperly spaced double fairs will be punished by dash attack. I could repeat what everyone already said about juggling and landing, but I won't. Also, no one seemed to mention anything about SB (shield breaker). Be wary when shielding too long within range. Don't use nairs because he can DS out of the 3rd kick.

As for stages, I'm split on this. I heard the argument that stages like BF and Lylat are good because the platforms give us landing options. Also, we have platform tricks. But if we land on a platform, we are sitting ducks. It's a pain to be tilted through platforms. Stages like FD are bigger and give us more room to play with b-reversals, but marth's mobility makes it a bit easier to catch us. I personally prefer FD, cause I hate crouching on a platform instead of FF air dodge through it.

Edit: I miss Candy! Why is everyone from the earlier times leaving?

etecoon · Feb 24, 2010

just start posting about him everywhere since he namesearches lol

boss8 · Feb 24, 2010

candy again

earlier times??? i still play every week in tourny!

etecoon · Feb 24, 2010

he means you don't post on this board that much. as I said, just random name drop like

I WONDER WAHT CANDY THINKS ABOUT THIS MATCHUP

Underload · Feb 24, 2010

Namesearching the word "candy" must be fun.

Yumewomiteru · Feb 25, 2010

Fairs shouldn't be that much of a problem, you can punish retreating fairs by dash attacking them on landing, did you guys know that Snake's dash attack has some invincibility frames on his hands and arms?

etecoon · Feb 25, 2010

if he does a rising retreating fair on your shield you're just going to leave yourself open trying to go after him, it really is a pretty significant issue because if it were just juggling/edge guarding, snake can rack up a lot of damage too given the right situations, but he has problems getting into those situations vs marth

xxCANDYxx · Feb 25, 2010

eh i guess i should post in the snake boards more often

namesearch candy is NOT fun....too much stuff about the actualy candy and candy eye and candy coating and pokemon rare candy

and if it is valentines or HALLOWEEN then i'm never able to find anything LOL >.<

but yea...snakes dash attack punish most of marths approaches...you just have to be smart to cover yourself up with gernades and stay in the middle...i play marths alot like i play mk's.

Bizkit047 · Feb 25, 2010

Darn I didn't get to this one in time. I <3 this matchup. I think it's 55-45 Snake. Neo tries to tell me otherwise. Marth beats Snake in the air and off stage, Snake beats Marth on the ground easily and out camps him. Ban BF if you can, CP FD/Halberd. There is no doubt FD is the best Neutral against Marth. You have massive room to run away and camp. Whlie stages like BF you can get pressured really easily.

Like Candy said, dash attack punishes Marth pretty easily. Mix up landing against Marth a lot. If all you do is air dodge, you'll just eat Uairs all day. Pivot Nading is great here, don't always land aerials either. If you get hit off stage, double jump + Up B immediately. Marth can chase Snake very far out and KO with tippered Bairs/Uairs/Fairs, even Up B. When on the ground, if Marth starts dancing blading you and you shield it, grab it after the first or second one. You should guaranteed grab it no matter what the Marth tries to do (stopping it, stalling it, using it all etc).

So some notes about the matchup:

Camp hard
Recovery fast and high
Mix up landings best you can
Stay grounded as much as you can
Dash attack Fair retreating Marths
Punish Dancing Blades
CP stages without many platforms, ban BF

etecoon · Feb 25, 2010

agree that mixing up your landing is important, but I usually have the most issues if he just waits for me to land and follows me rather than trying to intercept in the air, the only things I've been able to do that consistently work vs follow > shield grab/DB are either landing on a platform(bad position but not guaranteed to end badly at least), or cyphering extremely high and dropping a nikita and following that(telegraphed as hell and he can just cross to the other side)

I'd also strongly disagree on BF, you can actually shut down his attempts at approaching there as well as what I said above about plats actually being important for giving you recovery options, I've found SV to be significantly worse for me...small stage, like any hit will put you in the edge guard **** position, no space to camp, barely any room to recover without him getting in the way

Bizkit047 · Feb 25, 2010

etecoon said:
agree that mixing up your landing is important, but I usually have the most issues if he just waits for me to land and follows me rather than trying to intercept in the air, the only things I've been able to do that consistently work vs follow > shield grab/DB are either landing on a platform(bad position but not guaranteed to end badly at least), or cyphering extremely high and dropping a nikita and following that(telegraphed as hell and he can just cross to the other side)

I'd also strongly disagree on BF, you can actually shut down his attempts at approaching there as well as what I said above about plats actually being important for giving you recovery options, I've found SV to be significantly worse for me...small stage, like any hit will put you in the edge guard **** position, no space to camp, barely any room to recover without him getting in the way

Well if the Marth keeps doing the same thing every time, then it's not too hard to get around it. If he's waiting on the ground, you have options of dropping C4, nades, pivot nading, and air dodge landing. Mixing that up alone is good enough to throw off a Marth that just stands there doing nothing waiting for your landings. In the air, the Marth will most likely try to read air dodges or space away from aerials to punish. There's nothing wrong with pivot nading early if you're up high. You gotta be careful with C4/Nikita dropping though, as that's punishable if the Marth sees it coming.

And yea, I think BF is still bad. Landing on a platform isn't going to help you too much. You don't want to be stuck in the air vs Marth at all, and with platforms there, you're not on the actual ground enough. Let's say you get knocked onto a platform. That's a free punish for Marth that can also lead into juggles. It's just a messy stage for this matchup IMO. It's also harder to camp Marth on BF than it is stages like FD or even SV.

etecoon · Feb 25, 2010

Mixing that up alone is good enough to throw off a Marth that just stands there doing nothing waiting for your landings.

more like walking around than standing perfectly still, it's harder to react from a totally neutral standpoint and walking gives you better positioning. it's problematic because he walks at least as fast as snake moves through the air(I think faster actually) and b reversals leave snake with few/no options once executed, so if marth positions himself right he can react to whatever you do

Bizkit047 · Feb 25, 2010

Well let's say he does wait for you to land like that. If you pull out a nade, the only thing he can "safely" do is grab you and toss you. If the Marth has port 4, however, he can potentially get away with this alone, but if not and if you're good at mashing out of grabs, you're fine. He'll have to throw you and get away from the nade before it explodes. If he does a regular attack, he blows up and possibly you too (usually worth the damage due to weight difference). So think about that. What you DON'T want to do 85% of the time is land aerials or air dodges with a Marth just waiting, that's very easily punisahble. Pivot nading is not.

etecoon · Feb 25, 2010

after throwing you up he could jump after you, stand there and shield it, walk away from it...or even just throw it away depending on how cooked it was, I haven't met a marth that does it but he could probably instant throw it most of the time even

Bizkit047 · Feb 25, 2010

Well regardless, it means Marth has to do something other than juggle you to not get hit by the nade, and that's what you take advantage of.

SuPeRbOoM · Feb 25, 2010

camp like a beast in this matchup and pick a big stage lol. If you shield his fair it's good to get first hit of ftilt(if he spaces bad or you powershield),uptilt, or dash attack, those are really the only counter attacks you can do against marth.

etecoon · Feb 25, 2010

SuPeRbOoM said:
pick a big stage lol

this is the biggest reason I feel like this is in marth's favor btw, snake does win on certain stages and I think it's really even overall, but the way the neutrals list is usually constructed I think he will get the better game 1 stage most of the time. although I could be completely off on that considering that marth and snake mains that have posted here all have differing views on what their best/worst stages even are

Berserker. · Feb 25, 2010

The reason why this match up is 45:55 Marth is because of the messy things that Marth can do. Camping won't work well against him but I'm not saying the match up is not winnable or something like that. It's just that Marth shuts down almost all of Snake's options

etecoon · Feb 25, 2010

camping serves its purpose, on most stages at least, of forcing marth to actually fight you in some form or another, having only two jumps and some decent blind spots, he does leave himself open if he attempts to camp you back/run away too much. but if he is playing aggressively/staying closer to you, you have to be careful when you're throwing grenades around as that leaves you open. it's not that camping is useless, you just have to know when to do it

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